smcharg

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Here's a picture of Joseph Szczur's Allure prior to being packed up and shipped. This is one of the custom schemes that Bryan had done on the first order. We will get some up on the website soon at www.ckaero.net and you can also follow Bryan at https://www.facebook.com/ckaero. More custom scheme pictures to come....

Don Szczur

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smcharg

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Here are just a few pictures of Bruno Schiffler's new Allure. Bruno did an electric Allure with the glow chin and a Contra Drive. There are more pictures on CK Aero's website at http://www.ckaero.net/gallery/index.php?/category/17

Jason Arnold

Germany looks like a pretty place.

Looks like an interesting battery retention system too. Who needs velcro?

Cheers,
Jason.

smcharg

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Here's a couple of Marvin Marozo's Allure. This is actually the standard yellow scheme that will be available with Marvin's numbers painted on the wing. I hope to have pictures of mine in the next couple days.

klhoard

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Just hope they don't puff up in flight.
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Jason Arnold

Hi Guys,

This last weekend we had our first ever competition at Gloucester, NSW Australia. What a fantastic venue with 360 degree views!

I managed to take out F3A by 50 points over six rounds. Four other pilots had a fly of the Allure on the buddy box and were most impressed. The general comment was that my ailerons were a little sensitive but that is really just a personal feel thing and you get used to it pretty quickly.

Cheers,
Jason.

Jason Arnold

Brett has flown the new World Champs Allure this past weekend. From all reports Brett is a very happy camper and is very greatfull for all the effort Bryan has put in to make it happen.

Here are some pictures.

Cheers,
Jason.

smcharg

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Here are a few more pictures that Bryan sent over of the World Championships Allure.

serious power

Hi Scott,
That's a better looking 'pilot' al-right

Brian

Jason Arnold

Hi Guys,

I'm Just in the midst of fitting a Throttle Tech and the Unisens-E to the Allure. It will be very interesting to see the difference in throttle response and battery consumption and also get some real telemetry measurements back to the Tx.

Whilst the battery/ESC/SPS tray is out we might as well have a minor dremel party for the "weight watchers" effect...

Cheers,
Jason.

SchiBru

My Allure is complete ready and well tested in the meantime.
Now with reinforced gear plate and two add. ribs inside the canopy, autmatical connectors (MPX green) between wings and fuselage and well proven in the meantime.(The new series have a sufficiently strong chassis plate).
Inside very clean without visible cables and with my innovative battery mounting-system.
Flightweight now with Hacker Top Fuel 4150mAh WC Edition ( exactly 900 grams over all) : 4790 grams.
The Adverrun contra with the Hacker A 50 10L Turnado V3 is a "Powerbear"; max. Amps in flight with Mejzlik 22x20/ 22x22 contraprop 78 Amps! Never more then 3000 mAh for P15 at storm; typical 2750 mAh at normal conditions.
And this with tons of power! With a max. throttle point at 60 % (with fixed point at full throttle 1,98 ms at the controller Hacker Mezon 99 light with BEC)., there is no problem in a large upper headwind radius to speed. ( max. BEC Amps in flight were 3,5 Amp. with 2x Futaba 551 at ailerons, 2x Futaba BLS 173 at elevator and 1x BLS 471 at rudder)
The Mejzlik props 22x18 / 22x20 are also good, but the 22x20/22x22 give me at this drive set the optimzed power feeling at each wind condition incl. storm! And the motor is only slightly warm.
All what I could say about the Allure is WOW!
The Allure feels in the air with all advantages of monoplanes and biplanes together!
You promised not too much, Bryan!
It´s the best F3A plane I ever have flown. (and this were a lot!)
It´s sooooo good, that I decide to buy for myself an add. Allure as backup model for this and the next season.
More praise I can not pronounce!!
I like this model with it´s outstanding look and performance.




Bruno

Jason Arnold

Sounds awesome Bruno.

The consumption figures from your contra sound almost too good to be true... I'm using the same setup as Bryan did that is the 20" props and a 9.89:1 gear ratio and I'm using between 3300 and 3800 for a P15 competition flight. This is probably about normal for the Brenner drive. I'm not limiting the throttle at all either.

Last weekend end I got my Allure to do the knife edge madness thing without any mixing. For those that don't recall the knife edge madness take a look at this: http://youtu.be/ZmP33i5pyVk

Today it's raining in Sydney and the weather man didn't even predict it.. They really do need windows in their forecasting room. Anyway, good time for some hanger flying. I'm still working on getting the Throttle Tech and Unises-E fitted. A new sensor harness was made for the Unises-E. Weighs in at 6 grams!


Will post some more pictures soon.

Cheers,
Jason.

Jason Arnold

Throttle Tech and Unisens-E fitment complete.

A little bit of a rats nest regarding the wiring but not too bad.

The Unisens-E needs to be programmed and the software is in German. Will program it the same as my other one which should work fingers crossed! The extra little white wire allows switching between Max, Min and live telemetry figures. This one sensor gives you heaps of information even altitude and rate of climb. The othe White wire connects to one of the ESC motor phases. This gives RPM measurements. You can also set alarm thresholds too. This is great to ensure a charged pack is fitted before a flight. Yes, most of us have done that and probably wrecked a pack in the process.

Cheers,
Jason.

serious power

' The consumption figures from your contra sound almost too good to be true... I'm using the same setup as Bryan did that is the 20" props and a 9.89:1 gear ratio and I'm using between 3300 and 3800 for a P15 competition flight. This is probably about normal for the Brenner drive. I'm not limiting the throttle at all either. '

Hi Jason,
Using sub 3,000mA per P schedule is very normal for a lot of the better European fliers and for a lot of others as well ,I guess. ie regardless of motor/drive type.
For eg; G Mayr told me he can use a 3,300mAh pack for P flights using his Trigantic.
As you know for any given model it is all about the size of manoeuvres, throttle management, speed of flight and to a lesser extent the weight/wing loading of the model. Within the realms of what we fly the larger the wing area the lower the usage when paced slowly.
The motor/gear/prop set up you are using will consume a lot if not managed extremely well in every aspect. It is not the drive type !! (a slipping clutch will of course waste power, if that is happening)

Brian

Jason Arnold

Hey Brian,

Thanks for your input. Yes, size of manoeuvres, throttle management etc all have a big impact on consumption. I've not been flying the contra for long so perhaps my throttle management with this drive will improve with more experience.... Having said that, I usually find that I use more power in a competition flight vs a practice P15 flight. Over my Plettenberg Advance I find my battery consumption has increased by 300-500mAh which is probably pretty reasonable considering the extra weight and turning two props instead of one...

Regarding the wing area, the Allure has a fairly large wing area of 1150 square inches and in flight, it feels light even though I'm over 4900 grams. Moving to say a 22" prop combo and a 10.15:1 ratio may reduce consumption but may also slow the model down too much for my liking. It's probably worth trying though.

Cheers,
Jason.

DaveL322

My Allure now has 154 flights on it, and I have periodically done some data logging with the Castle ESC and and Eagletree data logger, as well as noted the mah returned from the TP820CD chargers.

My setup is the Brenner Contra, 10.15 gear, 22x20F and 21.5x20R (tips reshaped to mimic APC), Neu 1512-2Y (1380 KV), Throttle Tech (set at compensation factor of 22, slightly more aggressive than stock setting of 20), Castle Creations Edge 80HV Lite (medium timing, 12khz), and ThunderPower G8 5000 Prolites. This setup effectively "flatlines" what a 1513 motor is capable of at the start of the flight. I run the brake at 30%. I find the setup quite comfortable for flying at 150 meters in light winds, and it still has plenty of top end to fly F15 big at 175 meters in strong wind.

My average P15 flight is 7:00 takeoff to box exit and uses a little under 3,000 mah. This is at sea level with an ambient temperature of about 75 - 80F. Distance is typically 160 meters with fairly tall verticals. It is worth noting it has been a rather windy spring in the northeastern US, but on the nicer days I have flown some P15 flights for as little as 2500 mah. This past weekend at the Ocean County Modelers Contest, we had a very strong blow out crosswind...quite nasty to fly in. Mah used for those flights was right at 3450.

I've not logged as many flights of F15, but it is typically around 7:50 at about 3,500 mah. I think I've seen slightly over 4,000 on 2 occasions when it was a very strong blow out crosswind and I flew a bit faster and further out. I've found the Allure to have a deceptively broad speed range. It is comfortable flying slow, but it will really scoot when needed.

Distance out is a BIG factor on the mah used. The 20" props substantially reduce the peak amp draw, but, I find with good throttle management the 22" props are a little more efficient (especially on F15) and offer a broader speed range (more braking, and if using 22x22s, the top end speed is also better). More than a few pilots/setups have benefited substantially (reduced mah consumption) from the use of Throttle Tech.

Vs a single prop (electric), I think I could make the argument that the contra is actually more efficient, given truly equal flight performances. Several years ago, when I was flying a Contra Bravo and a single prop Bravo back to back, I realized the Contra was retaining more speed at the tops of maneuvers, and of course had more braking in downlines, and was flying more constant speed. The superior braking means there is less coasting on the exits of downlines, and the contra needs power sooner than a single prop. I changed the 1513 in the single prop Bravo out for a 1515, and after doing that, and matching the upline performance (and braking) of the Contra Bravo, the mah consumption difference was consistently less than 100 (in favor of the single prop, which still fell a little bit short on braking).

Jason Arnold

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your input. I think it helps us all learn something new and gets people thinking.

Is the 21.5 x 20"R prop you're using a modified 22" prop?

Your comment about the Allure's speed range is interesting. Some people that have seen my Allure fly are surprised at how fast the contra is going. This surprises me as I would have thought quite the opposite i.e. it's slower and more constant. I've found that the model/contra just pulls through the tops of manoeuvres with ease at mid throttle settings and adding extra throttle doesn't seem to make a massive difference to the speed. Just got to be patient and let it tractor through. Hope that make sense.. lol

Cheers,
Jason.

DaveL322

Jason,

I have tried a lot of prop combinations....I always run the rear prop 1/2" less diameter as that seems to reduce noise. I have template I use to reshape the front prop tips to mimic APC, and I do the same for the rear props after cutting 1/4" off each tip.

When other pilots have flown my planes with the Contra, what I generally advise them is that the range of throttle they need is smaller in comparison to a single prop. Full throttle is not needed as often, and the amount of added throttle needed when going from cruise to climb is less than a single prop electric. Going from a direct drive to a geared system is one step....geared systems have more torque, more braking, naturally fly a more constant speed...the Contra is the next step past the geared system.

serious power

Hi Jason/Dave,
Dave has just stolen my thunder on this a little
I did not mention distance out or the TT as I was hoping to bring the debate there sub-sequentially and you are busy installing the TT.
I did however mention size and speed. They all directly relate.
Dave is a pilot of the highest order, a US Nats winner etc.
My experience has brought me to using the 10.15 gearing with the 22x18 front and the 22x20 rear (both reshaped and rear shortened by 6m/tip).
This set up allowed me to fly a slower and consequentially a closer in pattern than I would otherwise be able to. I would be a middle order pilot ability wise doing a limited amount of flying and I'm getting old . TT enhanced the set up performance.
I would think that TT has more potential/scope to assist the less able/experienced pilots with throttle management.

Some say this set up is too slow but this is not evident in flight times. I believe that faster flying results in deeper flying and visa-versa.
In wind vertical performance is key and this set up has , to quote Brenner, 'stump pulling performance'..

I suggest you try a couple of set ups - just give yourself enough time to acclimatise as you do so as it is easy to rush to an opinion when you make a biggish change.
Besides that what Dave has said re the big diameter props I would add that the big diameters are better on the bigger models.

Brian

PS; I can assure you the high usage is not due to the drive, per say.

Jason Arnold

Well, programming the Unisens-E was easier than expected.
Basically, I connected the Mac to the Unisens-E in the Spark, updated the firmware, downloaded the configuration and then connected the Allure Unisens-E, updated its firmware and then wrote the settings to the device. Too easy!

Cheers,
Jason.

Jason Arnold

Well, programming the Unisens-E was easier than expected.
Basically, I connected the Mac to the Unisens-E in the Spark, updated the firmware, downloaded the configuration and then connected the Allure Unisens-E, updated its firmware and then wrote the settings to the device. Too easy!

Cheers,
Jason.

Jason Arnold

Just realised I made a mistake setting the Unisens-E. The pole setting is incorrect as is the gear ratio. Been flying direct drive too long! Lol

I will need to adjust the poles to four and gear ratio to 9.89:1 or as close to that as I can get.

Cheers,
Jason.

DaveL322

Brian - Thanks! Not trying to steal your Thunder at all. I'm quite certain we are in agreement in terms of the factors affecting mah usage, and the efficiency of the contra given the performance afforded.

A couple more pictures of my Allure and my thoughts on the plane thus far. Thanks to my friend Paul Douglas for the landing pic of the Allure at the OCM contest this past weekend.

Note that my plane was among one of the first ones produced after the two prototypes, and as I understand it from Bryan, a couple changes were made before the first full production ran began (ie, foam aft fuselage crutch replace with wood, LG legs are pre-drilled, LG plate is additionally reinforce, etc) to further speed assembly and reduce weight.

The full equipment list on my plane -
JR 28X, 731BX receiver, MP91S on ailerons and rudder, MP31s on elevators
2 x ThunderPower 3s250 x 2 receiver packs, 2 x Tech Aero HV voltage regulators (prototypes) set at 8.3 volts
Brenner Contra Drive, 10.15 gear, 22x20F and 21.5x20R, Budd softmount bits with Brenner CF mounts
Neu 1512-2Y
Castle Creations Edge Lite 80HV (brake at 30%)
Tech Aero Throttle Tech (compensation factor at 22)
Thunder Power G8 Prolite 5000s

The overall parts fits is quite good. I did a small amount of additional fitting on the canopy pins and latch to snug things up a bit. I opted to install the elevator servos in the stabs as I typically have done in the past. I used an MK tailwheel assembly and used my standard 8-32 bolt assembly for the axle / wheelpant mounting and was able to squeeze in 2.5" Dubro wheels. The kit comes with a CF tray for the motor lipos (mounted just forward of the wing leading edge), and a lite ply tray for the rudder servo (mounted near the wing trailing edge). I opted to make my own "radio tray" (rudder servo, Vregs, RX lipos) from 1/8" end grain balsa FG laminate and located this tray at the front of the wing tube. This allowed me to shift the lipo tray aft and tie it into the LG plate for reinforce both of these critical structures. The lipo tray is also made of 1/8" end grain balsa FG laminate and is my variation of the "clamp" method I first saw used by Earl Haury.

After some fiddling with trims, CG, throws, etc, my plane is flying with the spinner aligned perfectly to the nosering, the wing incidence unchanged from the factory (tiny bit of aileron trim), and I adjusted the stab incidence slightly to get rid of elevator trim. My preferred CG location is 1/8" behind the wing tube, right in the center of the range Bryan recommends. I do the majority of flying on one set of rates. For spins, I use a slightly higher elevator rate and full rudder (full rudder also for stall turns). For snaps, I use full aileron deflection (25 degrees).

Zero rudder to elevator mixing. I have a TINY bit of rudder to aileron mixing (on a curve mix) to mitigate adverse roll at higher rudder deflections. The mix value +/- 10% of the stick center is zero, and outside of that the mix activates. At the rudder deflection I use for the golf ball in F15, the mix value is 0.7% (right rudder gives small amount of right aileron). I have small downline mix (down elevator at idle).

As I briefly noted before, the speed range and drag profile of the Allure is deceptive. With the 22x20 props, it has enough drag to be comfortable flying at a slow speed, but still has speed to cut through wind/turbulence on windier days. I am planning to experiment with 22" pitch props and the 10.33 gear ratio in the future to see if that combination might yield an even broader speed range.

For anyone considering a platform for a contra, the Allure is an excellent choice. It does not exhibit any of the yaw instability that many other designs suffer when paired with a contra. The Allure has the feel of a plane that is well refined and has a proper balance of pitch/yaw response and damping (which I am a stickler for, and why I have modified side area on previous planes). It maneuvers efficiently without sacrificing stability, and is agile enough to complete the K6 FAI unknown maneuvers without the pilot having to force the plane through the maneuvers.

serious power

Hi Dave,
You're welcome. Hope you're keeping well - though you must be with 150+ flights already - that is a season for me .
No problem re the 'thunder' - was just kidding - how were you to know where I might have been going with this.
Yes we are on the same page re the contra's performance. It's just that I (and others) would find it difficult to control usage if using a 'hot' set up on it.(this is true for all electrics)
That of course reflects on me- not the contra. Actually the scope it has in terms of the range of performance it can be set up for is quite something - amazing really.
Really looking forward to the V4.

Do you have the new wing on your model ?
You will have to try the bipe when it's ready.

Brian