Jason Arnold

Hi Bo,

I think the choice of an EP Allure with chin cowl is simply an aesthetic thing. The chin cowl version is probably a little more aggressive in its look. The chin cowl version of the Allure is the default for the European market.

Joseph or his Dad Don could probably comment on why they didn't fly the Allure but I believe it was simply a lack of time on the model. It was however his back up.

I believe that Brett flew the Allure in the preliminary rounds because of flying with a second flight line. Risk management....

Cheers,
Jason.

GVI

Hi Jason,

not sure, is the Design of this Allure a "Standard" or a individual one?

and it will be interresting for me to real about some Update of flying the Allure. Your flying Feedback was After the First flights.

gerhard

Jason Arnold

Hi Gerhard,

The schemes for the builders kits pictured are both Bryan's standard and also the German (Bruno) standard.

On the flying, each time I fly this model its unique characteristics are appreciated more. Just last weekend I noted that in the spin it will stop on a dime as soon as the controls are released. Many models will actually wind up in the spin. This doesn't sound significant at first sight but when you can eliminate under or over spinning the exit your score consistency will be significantly improved.

Since those initial flights I have now changed to the 22" x 20" F/R props and the change in down line braking is humongous! The contra takes quite some time to get used to regarding throttle management. The Allure doesn't zoom out of the bottom radi and is actually quite comfortable chugging over the top of loops and humpty bumps etc. Once you get this into your head power consumption will amazingly come down to between 2600 and 3000mAh for a P15 schedule.

I've also played around with incidence, CG and thrust settings during the trimming process. When you get the Allure close it's like balancing a bowling ball on a razor blade. One tenth of a degree here or there starts to make a big difference.... Bryan's methods are like taking little steps to get to the goal. The process should not be rushed otherwise you may overstep the optimum setting.

Cheers,
Jason.

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi,

Downline breaking:
Is it needed any break in ESC on a contra prop plane like Your plane. Is the two props alone enough for beaking in downline?

Setup/trimming:
Seems from Your description that it is very narrow optimal trimming window for the Allure. If that is the case it mean an averge F3A flyers may get in trouble finding optimal trimming?

/Bo

smcharg

My Feedback: (1)

I don't use any braking with the Brenner Contra on the ESC and feel as though none is needed. The aircraft, itself, has plenty of inherent drag and, in my opinion, more braking doesn't present as well. I think what Jason is trying to say is that there is a moment when you are trimming a plane that you say "AH, there is the perfect balance point for me and this airplane" and you have arrived at where you want to be. Go just a little further and now it starts to not be as good as before. The important thing for me was to listen to what Bryan is saying, make small changes i.e. one thing at a time so that you can see what the difference is in that change and so you know what to change if the correction didn't improve the flying characteristics of the plane.

For me (and I have the prototype Contra), I have found that the Allure flies really good with a range of CG but there is a point where I found that the airplane is at its best. You sort of sneak up on it. Just because 1/10 of a degree makes a big difference does not elude to a plane that only flies good at one specific point but that the airplane is so finely tuned and precise, you can feel even the smallest changes.

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Scott,
That make sense and I understand better now.
/Bo

Jason Arnold

Hi Bem,

Yes, I'm running 30% end brake. Just a small amount of brake is needed with an in runner. In the 45 degree down lines the model sounds like a Mac truck compression braking down a hill. :-)

I forgot to mention that when I changed to the 20" pitch front prop, the sound of the model changed a bit. Almost like the props are beating together. It's not a problem, just different.

The balancing a bowling ball on a razor blade analogy is how Bryan describes fine tuning the Allure when you get close to optimum. Perhaps it's not the ideal way to describe it but basically if you make a minor change to the model the difference can be felt and you know immediately if the result is better or worse. Scott has described it very well in his last post.

Cheers,
Jason.

DaveL322

Bo,

I am using 30% Castle brake with 22x20 F and R and 10.15 gear. In some downlines I advance the throttle a bit to turn off the brake. Having the brake setup simply increases the range of flight speed available. Several other pilots that have flown my Allure have not used the brake, and did not think it was necessary. As Jason alluded to, it can take some time for flyers new to the Contra to learn the characteristics to the point that it can be fully utilized.

Trimming....put the CG in the middle of the suggested range and fly it. Use the recommended control throws. Shift forward or aft (if needed) and tweak the control throws to suit your personal preference. Make minor tweaks on the stab incidence (if needed) to eliminate any elevator trim. That's it. This is a very well refined design, and that lends to a couple of things - it flies extremely well, and, it is easy notice when something is not right.

Joseph only had about 1 week of flight time on the Allure prior to the WC. I think one of the biggest factors in flying the Pegasus was the power system. The Pegasus has a Contra drive vs an older YS setup in the Allure. I'm not knocking the YS, but for the level Joseph flew at in the WC, small differences in the power system make a difference, and he had hundreds of flights on the Contra the few months before the WC, in comparison to <50 on YS.

HerbK

Dave,
i don't think Joseph ever flew the Allure with a YS at the WC. He had a weight problem in the semi's because he went with a slightly heavier pack for his second flight.

Herb

Jason Arnold

Hey Guys,

On Friday afternoon builders kit #2 and #3 were received in Sydney. They look fantastic! Both are painted in the German Bruno scheme. One is the chin cowl version and the other is the standard EP nose.

Here are some photos for your viewing pleasure:



Cheers,
Jason.

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi,
Is there any video from any competition flight with Allure at the World Championships in Switzerland?
I have checked Youtube and CK Aero blog. Can not find any.

/Bo

Jason Arnold

That may have something to do with the cameraman calling for Brett....
There are plenty of other flights of the Allure available on YouTube...

Cheers,
Jason.

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi,
First, it seems that Brett Wickizer (flying Allure and Alferma) was not completely satisfied with his place 14 in the WC: "I wasn’t happy with my final placing of 14th but with some time to reflect it was not a bad contest by any measure". Source http://www.ckaero.net/blog/2015/08/2...-in-the-books/

Second, do You mean that Brett flew Allure in Preliminary rounds becuse it was two flight lines and the (slight) risk of in flight collision?
If Yes, then if anyting happened to his Allure plane he would have his (more vaulable) Alferma biplane ready for semifinals?
If this reasoning is true then it seems he preferred his biplane for the semifinals and did not want to risk it at the Preliminary. And he actually flew his biplane in the semifinals.
Was Alferma biplane a better plane for the semifinal manoeuvres (for Brett) - simply his Alferma flyes better then his Allure in semifinal manouvers?

It sems to me somewhat strange that one do no select Allure for the semifinal flights (assuming it was ready to be flown at the time).
For whatever reason he did not choose Allure for the semifinal flights at WC.

/Bo

Jason Arnold

Hi Bo,

I'm sure Brett would have been much happier with first place but even so, from fifteenth place down the order would have been happy with fourteenth. :-)
Yes, a flight line mid-air was the concern. This is always a concern when flying two lines. The Allure is a production model which is reasonably easy to replace whereas the Alferma is a once off type model. I'm also sure that Brett and Bryan wanted to show off the Allure on the world stage in the preliminaries too.

If you watch Bryan's videos you'll understand better the differences between the Allure and Alferma. It's all there you just need to watch and listen.

Regards,
Jason.

serious power

Hi,
A mid-air at the WC's seems an unlikely concern.
According to Bulletin 1 (I think) the pilot positions were 1,200m apart. Something would already have had to been wrong to make a mid-air possible.
See the lay-out map attached.

Brian

bem

My Feedback: (1)

With that separation between the flight lines I have difficult to understand a concern for a mid air.

/Bo

Hamish Galloway

I Think it was great that Bryan and Brett were able to show off the Allure in the Preliminary rounds at the WC.. If I was the owners of CKAero I wou have done the same.. The Allure is very strong flying model for P and F but if Brett have have made the top 10, only 4 places behind the Alferma would have been A big advantage in the Unknowns..

Well done to Brett and Bryan

bem

My Feedback: (1)

I think also it was great that Brett flew the Allure in the Preliminary to show it and managed to reach the semifinals with it.
But it seems the biplane Alferma may have some advantages over Allure when maneouvers get more challanging?

/Bo

Hamish Galloway

Yes I Agree.. There won't be many of us that get to ever fly an unknown, Unless you are into IMAC but the Alferma would be a good place to start if you think you are good enough to have a chance at placing .. Now you are on the right track here.. Are you going to order an Alferma?

bem

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Hamish Galloway,
Not that it would make any difference to me personally if a plane flies slightly better in Unknown Schedule because I will never fly that.
But maybe F- Schedule in the future (in my country at National Championships).
I have not a clue when Alferma is going to production and can be delivered to customers, but see below ("fall").
http://www.ckaero.net/blog/2015/07/0...bipe-update-2/
(that was posted July 9)

http://www.ckaero.net/blog/2015/05/2...uction-update/
"The airplane will be first made available for YS power and then for Electric Power"
"Production will start in the fall".

It is a cool plane for sure and with retracts (that is an option) it will be even cooler (in my eyes).

Personally I'm not into biplanes, Im not sure what it would add to my level of flying except it would be little "diffrent".

/Bo

Hamish Galloway

That's cool Bo.. I think either way you would be happy with the choice you make.. I've ordered a builders kit of the Allure because I enjoy building. One of the best things that you get when you buy a model from CKAero is any problems with trimming and set up Bryan is great at helping sort small trimming issues by Email..
Good luck with your decision..
Regards Hamish

serious power

' If I was the owners of CKAero I wou have done the same '

Hi Hamish,
That makes sense to me.
They may also prefer the Allure for the 'P' stuff.

Brian

Jason Arnold

Guys,

Please watch the videos where Bryan and Brett give their impressions of the model and the thinking behind it. It's far better to get the information from the horses mouth than the horses arse.

Cheers,
Jason.

serious power

Jason,
I wonder why you feel the need to scoop material from the gutter to construct a comment/reply.

While you are at it perhaps you could explain which end, of which horse, was talking when you were telling us all; That the guys flew the Allure, in the Prelim's of the World Championships, due to fear of a mid-air.

Brian

serious power

Hi Jason,
Actually, while sticking with your 'horse' analogy, it would seem that this whole thread has come out of the wrong end of the said 'horse'.
So if you really want to insist that we hear only from the said 'horses' mouth you might be better to have a little chat with yourself first.

Brian