RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Hezik,

Well done to Holland in the World cup. Good luck I will be supporting you.


Trust me I know a good deal about facts.
I recently retired after 28 years as head of Quality & Reliability in a factory manufacturing Integrated Circuits (silicon chips) in the Semiconductor Industry.

Facts:

You have had this Reliability failure.

Others have had this failure. ( I'm trying to find out how many)

Definition of Quality - 'Fit for purpose'.
Definition of Reliability 'fit for purpose over time'. (Your motor initially worked fine then failed after time)

Endfest is an Epoxy

Extract from Enfest specification (yes it will given certain materials and conditions operate higher)

Specification of UHU plus endfest 300
Chemical basis epoxy resin
Adhesive technique wet adhesion
Temperature range for use between –40 and + 80°C

Epoxy curing temperature is one thing but the operating temperature is generally lower.


The issue for me is not the adhesives, we should not have to use it, but the reliability failure of the A50-16L in the Wind 110 application.
If there is a genuine problem, I would like Hacker to know, put in place corrective action by modification or redesign.
Alternatively tell us all what is wrong with our application of the motor in the Wind 110 so we can do alterations to prevent this failure.
Providing them with our experiences and feedback will enable this to happen.
I'm sure Hacker would prefer that we don't move over to a different motor manufacturer.

Regards
Colin

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

And that is where you are wrong. The engine did not fail,also not over time. If I hadn't glued it, it would still be operating fine without glue.

I linked the german specification for UHU endfest, it's a german product, clearly stating 100 degrees standard and 140 degrees for aluminium, if cured at 180 degrees (which I did).

Again, the engines do not fail, so it's not a reliability issue. It's a quality issue. I agree with you Hacker should fix it, but if I'm not mistaking, Hacker already fixxed it. My second A50-16L has slight modifications in design, and so far (approx 500 flights again) hasn't shown this problem.

Hacker's answer to your inquiry will be swift and simpe; we're using the engine out of spec. The 18x12 or 18x10 props are both outside the Hacker specs for this engine. These props are bigger and more heavy, creating a bigger torque moment on the shaft on spinup.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Hezik,

Fine - whatever you say - however as far as I am concerned this motor fails as soon as the pin comes loose!
It was never intended to run like that hence the noise.

Colin

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

The pin can never really come loose, it can not 'fall' out of the engine or something like that. Only thing that can and will happen, is that the amount of freedom of movement, and hence the amount of noise, grows over time.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that this shouldn't be this way and that it's a quality issue Hacker needs to adress. However, even with this issue, the engine still functions fine and does what it's supposed to do; propel your aircraft.

I'm not entirely sure they didn't adress it yet tho, since my newer A50 doesn't seem to have this problem, and there are minute changes in construction. I haven't taken it apart far enough to see if the locking pin mechanism is still the same, however, it doesn't have the same room of movement.

It would be interesting to know if there are owners of a recent engine (lets say no older than 2 month), who still have this problem.

Before I forget.. if anyone glues their engine and also uses heat to cure the epoxy or whatever glue you're using, DON'T heat the magnets, leave the outer shell off. If you put the magnets in an oven at 180 degrees celcius, they will be destroyed and your engine won't work anymore.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

OK first flight on the Scorpion 4035-210.
Pulled a max of 47 to 48A in the air.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Bedowinn, please remind us what batteries and prop you're using. Thanks for the data, plenty of room for more prop! You have rpm data?

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Hezik, Colin,

I agree Hacker will say the A50-16L in the Wind 110 with 18x10 APCE is being used outside their "spec"
Perhaps the issue is with Sebart - why use a motor outside Hacker spec.?
On my Wind 110 I had my first A50-16L replaced, under warranty, by West London Models (UK Hacker agent) after only 19 flights because of a grinding noise (bearings?). I purchased another A50-16L whlst the 1st was being repaired/replaced, that too has started to become noisy, not as bad as the 1st motor though and 70 flights on it so far. I'm going to continue using it as is.
Would like to see a response from either Hacker or Sebart on this issue but not holding my breath !

Steve

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Hey friends!
I am just about to receive my Wind. Previously I was flying Sebart Angel 50 on O.S 61 FX, but power, and overall feel in P11 makes me less than competitive, yet It is possible to fly P11 good in no wind.
Since I feel that all that is pulling me back is the plane, I decided to go with Wind.
At start I was thinking about using YS 110, but calculated all expenses (Hyde mount, Hatori exhaust, and 15 gallons of fuel, that I will easily consume in a season) I came to conclusion, that Electric will be better.
I cannot go AXI, Neu or Scorpion because of limited funds, so I decided to go Turnigy route motor wise, so the question is- People who use Turnigy SK-5065-270 on 8S- What prop do you use for windy conditions, and which for calmer days?
As batteries, I'm planning on using new Turnigy Nano tech 4500 4s, Maybe someone has used them? How are they? Maybe I should go with route you tested- 30c Flightmax 5000?

Will 4500 will be enough? 5000 make quite a difference in price, if I take 4 sets (8 batts).
As a regulator I will probably be using CC HV80 for good breaking settings and overall performance + built in data logger is a nice feature at that price.

As power to servos I'll use castle Bec PRO, the question is: Should I use separate batteries to power servos, or I can use power from main batteries?

Regarding servos, I will be using Hitec HS 7775 low profile for ailerons, 5240 mini's on stabs, and 7965 for rudder.

I'm ok with putting work in regluing magnets and balancing the can, but the batteries is what scares me- will they last competition flying?
I hate this recession thing, normally I would never use china stuff again, I got bitten few years back..

Thanks in advance guys!

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Same KV as the A50-16L, so prop it about the same 18 x 10 or 12. Very pleased with mine on 10S and 16 x 12 xoar

You will need to elingate the mounting holes in the firewall to mount the motor as the hole patern is diffrent. A bit of a pain, but as I say mine works well. The guys at the club can belive that its powered by a $30 motor!!! I used the TURNIGY 5-7.5A (8~42v) HV UBEC and TURNIGY K-Force 70A-HV OPTO Brushless. All come down cool and have proved to be very reliable. My Lipos are pairs of 5S 3700 and 3800 EONX and TP V2 packs. I recon on 12 to 15 mins flights. Buy most of my sport flying is with 8 to 10 mins

Cheers

Kris

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Thanks for fast reply Kris!
Well, I will not go with china reg for receiver, as It is main component, if motor fails, so I can still land it safely :)
How is vertical performance/ down line braking with that regulator combo you have? I did not like how angel flew half loop and half roll to 4/8 points in opposite, the speed coming out is drastic, and I have no time to do them precise (that's on 12x5 prop :) ).
As far as I understand only 2 holes don't align with mounting of the hacker? Maybe It is possible to redrill 2 holes in engine, and tap new threads in it?

How about batteries, have someone used those nano-tech?

ADDED:

BTW, will it go good through F11 schedule with Turnigy/8S setup?

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

If the CC ESC has a good brake, also use a wideblade prop (i clipped an APC-E 19x12 W to about 17x12) and you'll be fine. This is exactly the point where braking and prop are important.

I wouldn't bother with nanotech, just buy regular zippies, 8s, 25C, 5000mAh. They last about 250 competition flights. After that you can still use them for training, but the real power is gone. We don't really need the high discharge rates, you'll pull about 70Amps max, even a 5000mAh 20C pack has no problem delivering that.

A P11 flight will take somewhere between 2300 and 2700mAh, depending on your throttle management, so 4500 mAh will be enough.

It will. Though I'm not flying this combo, someone else in the Dutch competition is, and it has more than enough power. The engine I saw delivered slightly more power than the Hacker, while remaining cooler.

On another issue; how in heavens name could you ever come up with the plan to glowpower this plane?!?!?!... it would constitute rape, nothing less, you would rape a perfectly fine airplane. NEVER EVER think those thoughts again, as far as F3A goes, glowpower is dead and should be buried. I have so far not met anyone who has made the transition from glowpower to electric, that has considered switching back, or doesn't become very unhappy just by thinking about going back.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I am running some very fast servos, 0.08sec, Hitec digitals total overkill, but give a twinkle to the point rolls; they are what I had spare. The rx I am running is JR PCM, not problem there, the UBEC does work very well and I have found it with the opto decoupled esc to be rock solid. It would not be too much extra weight to add a 2s lipo and regulator. However the UBEC is put between the flight battery and rx so any motor or ESC faillure will not effect it.

As for the angel 50, on a 12 x 5 prop and a two stroke, I am not supprised that you had not braking effect. The Wind 110, has a lot of wing area for the size of plane, so it does get knocked around a little in gusty winds and it will slow down due to the wing area. You just have to drive it round the manouvers more than you would with a higher loaded plane. As a matter of intrest I had one with the same turngy motor we are talking about on 8S 2250 and 16 x 12 xoar. Gave 45A peak or 1300W, bags of power and easy 10mins of pattern flying. Breaking very good.

I am sure I had to elonggate all four holes on the firewall, but don't quote me as it was 6 months ago I did it.... I had not had any problems with the strength of the firewall. The turngy motor is no as long as the 16L and as such there is no point in adding the second bearing and ply back mount.

I don't know about the P11 on 8S as I am running 16 x 12 on 10S, I have loads of power. The power on 8S would be about the same as the 16L, similar KV so I am sure it would not be a problem.

Cheers

Kris

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

16x12 XOAR and 1300 Watts is way underpowered for true F3A. Especially in windy conditions.

For example, I'm flying a 17x12 wideblade prop, pulling roughtly 2.1kW of power, and tho I have enough power, it's not overpowered. I don't have a 'high speed' flying style.

1300 Watss gives you about 310 Watt per kg, which might seem much for normal flying and should be enough for 3D flying, it's not enough for F3A. For F3A you want in excess of 500 Watt/kg. The 2.1kW I'm pulling gives me about 500 Watt/kg, which is in the F3A ballpark.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I think you miss understoad, the 1300W is for the angel 50, AUW under 3kg so approx 450W/KG, it is more thn enough to KE loop the plane all day long...

The same motor gives over 2.2KW on 10S an same prop

Kris

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Thank you for your response!
About glow, well, I love engines, dirty planes and oily hands, that's part of the hobby, as I started it :) Glow powering it looks easy- cut front off, take wood out, make firewall, slap Hyde mount and go huck :)

About nanotech- they are writing that they lost much longer than other lypos (I guess they meant their line of batteries) so, I'm just curious, but yet not willing to experiment, if I will not get info on them before turnigy engine is back in stock again- I'll go simple zippies. I have competition in august against coolest Lithuanian pilots like Donatas Pauzuolis, Remigius and other hot knives that live there :) Yet I still have more than a month.

CC esc has PC programmability, so brake is adjusted in %, that's why I'm not going china esc.

How about Servo setup I choosed? Looks fast enough, and Hitec 79xx series are just great IMO.

So will I need seperate RX battery or just feed BEC from main batt?






Kris, I bet 10S is killer, but if you take 8 packs- it's mucho $ :)
I'll upload a video later of how I treat F3A planes, when practicing is finished :)

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Hitec HS5965HBs aileron and elevators, HS6975Hb on rudder. Over kill?

Cheers

Kris

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I had the same problems as Bedowinn today with my Scorpion. Motor spit out a metal ring that surrounds the edge of the magnets, after a couple of squeals and a flopping sound. Hopefully tomorrow I will get a chance to look at the logged data, ironically enough I cleared the memory and started logging that flight.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

That's really crappy Joe.

I hope it doesn't happen with mine. So far so good as I touch the wooden desk. After Mike had the same thing happen a little while ago I opted not to use the rear bearing. So far everything has been fine by doing that but I do not have as much time on my motor as you guys did. I wonder if the motor needs to "move" a little bit as gyroscopic forces on the propeller/motor shaft would be significant. That is pure speculation however.

Anyway, my condolences.

Cheers

MJ

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Whats the temperature on these engines?

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Joe,

How many flights did you have on the motor total and did you ever use any of the lube oil that Scorpion sells like I showed you at the Pocono contest? Please keep us informed on what happened and the outcome. I'm only up to about 22 flights on the new motor and no issues yet.

Jerry Smith

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Lube oil? On an outrunner ?!

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

<h1 class="section-title"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-family: Arial;">Here is the info from the Scorpion web site. They said with RC planes that every 50 flights would be good, heli's need it every 10-15 flights. You can deceide if it's worth it or not.

Jerry</span></span>

Scorpion Motor Bearing Lubrication Kit (30ml)http://www.scorpionsystem.com/images/new-product3.gif</h1><div class="content"><p class="product-code">[Lubrication_Kit]</p><div class="product-details"><div class="image"> http://www.scorpionsystem.com/files/...arge_image.jpg Click to enlarge </div><div class="props"><div class="bordered"><p class="price">Price: <span>$5.99</span></p><p class="button"><input type="button" value="Add to cart" onclick="window.location='/cart/?add=332'" /></p></div><div class="descr">

The Scorpion Motor Bearing Lubrication Kit will help you maintain the bearings in your Scorpion brushless electric motor. Today's brushless motors, especially the helicopter motors, can be pretty hard on the bearings. In an average flight, the motor in a 450 size helicopter spins around almost a quarter million times! Without proper lubrication, the balls in the bearings can wear out quickly, leading to premature failure. At these speeds, the oil can get thrown out of the bearings in as little as 10-15 flights. Once the bearings loose their lubrication, they can heat up and wear out very quickly. A small drop placed on each bearing about once every 10-15 flights is enough to maintain proper lubrication to insure the longest possible life for your motor bearings.</p>

The oil included in this kit contains everything necessary to keep your motor bearings in top condition. The specially designed oil not only lubricates, it also bonds to the metal parts, displaces moisture and prevents corrosion to extend the life of your motor bearings.</p>

The oil is safe for use on Acrylics, Polyester, Nylon, Vinyl, Delrin, Teflon, Formica, Polyethylene and Polypropylene. It is also safe on most painted surfaces. There is no visible effect on Buna-N, Viton or Neoprene rubber products, so it is safe around most fuel lines, O-rings and other rubber products.</p>

The Scorpion Motor Bearing Lubrication Kit contains a 30ml bottle of bearing lubricant, a leak-proof twist-on cap, and a needle point applicator (19.5mm in length, 1.3mm in diameter) with protective cover.</p></div><h4>Weight including packaging</h4>44g</div></div></div>

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I have some Hyperdermic needles and motor oil??

I too am looking for a fine glow powered f3a plane.
I know sebarts planes are spiffy to say the least...
might be worth a look.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I have less than 50 flights on the motor. It is a good point about the rear support - I have been finding the screws wiggling out, even after adding CA to the holes and tightening. I'm not sure if this is part of the problem. The rear mount was destroyed during the last flight when the ring came out. Flight data from that flight looks normal, 67A peak.

Motor has been hitting around 130F-140F in temperature.

I have not yet oiled the motor bearings.

Lucien said it could be a bad batch of glue on the magnets, or possibly a screw or foreign object inside that dislodged the magnets.

Innov8tive is out of stock, it will be the end of July before I see a new motor. Warranty repair if no foreign object is found inside.

I'm thinking about calling Neu to see what the time frame is to receive a 1912 outrunner.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Looks like a great plane
I would love to place my saito 1.25 in it..
Yes, I could make it work..
I would like electric, but I don't want to start buying all those battiers...
I have done that with rc cars, and had enough of that...
waiting to run your truck because you are charging batteries, isn't for me..
and I don't want to have to buy 4-sets of 100$ batteries.

But yes, after the initial exspence, the bleeding stops....
HMMMM...