RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Yes, Steve did reply to me which motor he suggests. I can not remember now which one exactly but I remember posting it here on the thread. What I can remember it was an inrunner with kV250 and 8mm shaft weighting more or less the same as Scorpion 4035.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Exactly! Sorry for not explaining in detail, when posting last time about this question I was short on time. In that table two values are very important, initial brake and end brake. And if you again read into Juan's setting it is between 46% and 66% of the braking force.To go more into detail actually all this experimenting with props comes from the boats not from the planes. It is was there initially observed that a prop spinning at roughly 50% of the revs it would be spinning if allowed to spin freely creates the most braking effect.

Now if we combine this with another topic from the forum where a new Hacker motor will emulate the revs of a YS with the same prop (20x10,5) I think it becomes clear why a fixed revs set as "idle" on the electro motor will not work. Simply because in the case of electro motor the number of revs will always be constant while on the YS the revs would definitively increase from the idle due to "unloading" of the prop in the air.All this can easily be checked with an Optical RPM Sensor connected to an E- logger.

If the same prop is used both for glow and electro with the data from the e-logger one can absolutely emulate the same revs also on the electro. As SchiBru wrote "Now, we are sure, the F3A future is electrified!"

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/js/f...eeth_smile.gif

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Well, to put it blunt, this proves you need glasses, or need to fly more with this plane.

Now we've been over this before in this thread. If your not a 'masters' flyer or buy the plane for fun, you can do fine without brake. It's not dramatic.

However, for serious F3A competition at a higher level, this airframe definatly needs a brake. Saying it doesn't, proves either you didn't fly it (enough) , or don't fly at that level.

As far as the breaking goes, the poster above me got it the wrong way around. An YS will hardly spin up when idling in a downline. An electric engine will, or at least, most ESC's will let it. Most ESC's don't start braking the prop when engine is set to 'off'.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

You have not seen J L fly.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I would be glad if you could sustain this statement with some actual data because it simply doesn't make sense. Unless YS engines have electronic fuel injection with rpm sensor.
</g>

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I don't have to. I have made more than 1300 flights on this airframe.

Also the Dutch F3A Champ Derk van der Vecht (25th position at european championship F3A) has flown both mine and the one his uncle owns, and confirms my findings.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Oh, sorry for addressing the masters of the universe.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Which is what the YS 170 CDI has.

The YS will speedup in RPM somewhat, as do all engines, but way less than both an electric engine and a twostroke engine. This goes for all fourstroke engines, also those without fuel injection/rpm sensor and so on. It's a common known fact, not something I conjured up.

Regarding your masters of the universe reaction; thats BS. Read this thread. You'll see me posting numerous times that I'm not, nor will I ever be, world greates flyer. However, I'm not blind either. I don't need to see a better pilot fly an idle downline, to see wether a plane accelerates or not. This one does. Period. No and, or, if and but about it. Flying an idle downline is no rocket science. I'm pretty sure that if Joe would make more flights on this plane, or even take it to a competition, he will come to the same conclusion.

Besides that.. why didn't you make that remark when someone noted I didn't see lachowski fly? That's what I responded to.

Have you maidened yours yet? Set the brake to off, fly it on a windy day, with winds not cross, and fly P11. Then come back here and tell me you didn't miss any braking when coming out of the half roll/half loop combo and flying the downwind reverse 4/8 rolls ;)

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

hezik, read carefully what I wrote. I said that ONLY if both an internally combustion engine (like YS) and and electric motor would be spinning the SAME prop we would be able to compare the things. Otherwise we are comparing apples with oranges because there is a huge difference in braking power between a 20x10,5 and a 20x13.</p>

Also I have never mentioned anything about Wind 110 and its characteristics in that regard.</p>

At the same time here you can see that YS 170 CDI has a Carburetor and not EFI: http://www.centralhobbies.com/engines/parts/ys%20DZ170cdiexp.html</p>

Regarding my comment about the masters of the universe, yes I agree it was not nice and I guess you did not like it. In the same way you telling someone bluntly that he needs glasses (being that true or not) did not like to read that either. Catch my drift?;)</p>

And no I still did not maiden my Wind110, hopefully next Saturday. I am having great expectations also from the fact that you are at your 3rd Wind 110 so it must be good!</p>

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

It sounds to me like we're all guessing as to whether or not the ESC will let the prop accelerate on down lines. I think this is an important thing to know regarding braking setups.

If the ESC lets the prop spin at a faster rate, wouldn't that be similar to the 'squal' you get when the motor is out of timing with the ESC?

I'm just asking...

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I fly with a low idle period. Sure, the plane will pick up a little speed downhill, but damn, it never has hurt me in competition. I have flown everything in 20 plus years of pattern, 4 stroke , 2-stroke and electric. If I don't feel uncomfortable in what I do, why would I want more complexity. I also contend that using braking in downlines will also expose you more in windy conditions. Maybe it dosen't bother me because I have learned to adjust over time to the various powerplants and planes I've flown over the years. I don't fly F3A and frankly if I did, I sure in hell would not be flying a Wind 110. For the average pattern flyer particularly in the lower classes in the US who would use this plane, it is just one more thing to worry about that you really don't need. That is my reason for experimenting a little with this plane, to tell the guys out there that unless you are flying F3A, you don't need to use the brake function period. Not everyone flys P11. I believe in reality checks and this is a reality check. Oh, by the way, I don't and never will consider most of the integrating rolling maneuvers used today true aerobatics. I'm an old fashioned purist.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I have read your reaction, I was responding to this part of it:
Which is not correct. I own an eagletree datalogger, have logged flights with it, and posted results here, showing that on a set throttle point on a downline, the electric prop will spin op considerably. Highest measured RPM on an 18x12 prop was 14k RPM (at 75% throttle, I have both the RPM as the throttle sensor connected to it).

This is exactly what I ment when responding on the Q80 thread. Fixing the engine to an optimized RPM isn't the whole deal. ESC braking still needs to be improved as well, to a more 'governor-like' function, before one can truly reproduce the YS flight behaviour with an electric engine. Mind you; that is my opninion and I'm well aware that doesn't neccesarly make it the truth.

The rest, we do agree on. I was indeed blunt, so was Joe in the way he announced this plane didn't need a brake, or I have no problem with people being blunt, rather have someone say something blunt then beating around the bushes. I don't like politics ;)

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

What do you mean by that?

Well, there you have it :)

I don't know how familiar you are with the P11 schedule, but i'll try to paint the picture. Theres a sequence in P11 where one has to fly a rather large straight line on the topline of the box, inverted. Followed by a half roll/half loop, after which one has to fly 2 reversed 4/8 pts rolls, downwind.

Without the brake, I need to switch off the engine in the topline, basically almost make a spin entry into the half loop, quickly do the half roll, make a 4/8pts roll with LOTS of surface throw and by then I would be able to start increasing throttle a bit. Would I not do that in this manner, I would come pylonracing by doing the 4/8pts rolls, with a speed that is unmaintanable throughout the rest of the programme.

With brake, I can enter the loop normally, go to idle on its downline and slowly advance throttle when coming out of it, after which I can fly the rolls with a 'normal throttle setting', and, because of the airflow this creates over the steering surfaces, with minor surface throws.

We agree on that. I stated multiple times that tho the brake is needed, if one flies the lower classes or doesn't have the ambition to fly pattern, it's not a dramatic need. However, it's also not a complex thing. Connect your jeti box (or whatever programming solution your esc uses), set 2 brake values and fly.

That's a different statement than you made before. And I totally agree with you on this one. Its exactly the same as what I was saying.

Well, we weren't discussing any integrated rolling maneuvers, but besides that, it's your perogative to think so, and mine to disagree :)

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

scratch that. We simply agree on the braking issue, your original statement was incomplete, it didn't mention anything about flying F3A or not. You just stated the plane didn't need a brake, period. Which I didn't agree on and, as it turns out, neither do you.

In my opinion in all cases and for all styles of flying, the brake enhances this airplane. It does take more time to setup and can make setup more complex for beginners. If you're not flying pattern/F3A, or flying at beginning or intermediate level, you can easily afford to fly without or a limited brake. However, if you have the ambition to go beyond that, I would strongly suggest looking into the braking issue.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Hezik why do you love to pick fights in all these threads? It is annoying. I'm going to experiment with the block button.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I'm sorry, I edited my last remarks. I do not attempt to pick fights, that is in no way my intention.

If you read back this thread, I have always tried to paint a complete a picture when it comes to the experiences with this plane, mine and others.

There's simply more nuance to this brake discussion, for instance, then just stating 'it needs it' or 'it doesn't need it'. All I'm trying to do is to get the information about this plane as complete as possible.. how to set it up is highly dependant on what you plan to do with it, and at what level.

However, since I don't own this plane anymore, and thus won't have new ideas about it, I'll sign off on this thread as well.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

World's greatest buffoon perhaps?

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Now who's picking fights.. :P

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Hezik has strong opinions ... hehehehe ... come on, this is merely a hobby. A mere hobby ... who needs the chill pill. Red or Blue? :)

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

In the case you have not found it here it is: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9379876

And tIANci, thank you for reminding all of us that this is just a hobby for the vast majority of us.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Wow

My question just livened up this thread! The reason I started flying with a low idle setting is that the Hyperion ZS3025-12 in my Vanquish 2 has a noisy start up from zero rpm and I found the clonking noise quite annoying when shutting / opening the throttle on downlines. I now give it two clicks of throttle which spins the prop at fairly low RPM and has removed the clonking. I am probably not experienced enough to tell if it any faster in the downlines than previously. Is it also possible that removing the start / stop issue will affect the motor life in any way? I now fly all my electric models on a low idle.

BTW good to get all the feedback and opinions here, if we all thought the same way life would be dull!
John

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

It always amazes me how this goes. Read this thread. I have been giving lots of info about this plane. Lots of people have thanked me for the info, so Ive been constructive here.

Then someone barges in and makes a false statement about the brake. We discuss it and in the end it turns out I was right and his statement was incorrect, he/she corrects it.

Then i get called buffoon for doing so, and the one making the incorrect remark, or those supporting, are considered heroes.

Not that I mind. Buffoons are nice animals. They make far les war than humans.

FYI.. the fights are picked by persons who don't even own this plane, of have flown it like once or twice and then come in here with wrong information.

Anwyays, as I said.. I cancelled my subscription to this thread. Apparently people rather want incorrect info, than discussion. Or no info at all (EF thread).

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

Less resistance- means short circuit- more power can be taken away from prop. Take a motor, and connect all three wires and try to spin it, then connect only 2, and see.
As for charging, I don't think so. It would not be smart to put energy back in let's say 10s battery without balancing, something can go up than.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

hezik

I would be dissapointed if you stopped contributing to this thread. I have always valued your opinions although I am not a competition flyer. Feedback from competition flyers can still be very usfeul to the sport flyers among us as we still like to get the best performance from our models.

best regards

John

RE: Sebart Wind 110
 

I have always used a low idle on my electrics too. I find that a slowly spinning prop has more drag than a stopped prop. (For jets and large scale, the idle is a little higher cause you don't want them to fall outa the sky.) I use a throttle curve to set the idle, mid-point cruise, and vertical climb to where I like it.

Then I use the throttle hold (0%) as a kill switch. Works great!