Wolfpack duce

Hello, I am in getting a draganflyer for my unit to evaluate to take to Iraq. I am brand new to R/C and we are looking for something to do close in examination of potential threats with a video capability. We currently operate a dragoneye UAV but at $20,000 we don't have many to pass around. We want to take the DF apart and pack it into a pack and use it to look places we don't want to send a Marine. The DF is cheap and appears to fit the bill, but has anyone had any experience with it in a dusty environment and any recommendations for weatherproofing/maintenance in that environment, or any other comment on this application? Has anyone painted it?-Lt.V

techcoast

Hello Lt.

I'd be a little more weary to send a fixed pitch heli into a high threat area for this reason alone. Wind. The fixed pitch birds just don't handle wind very well, they tend to move all over the place and that can cost you. I'd recommend the Picollo or the Hornet CP. Both have collective pitch and can handle light winds fairly well. Put a good lithium battery pack (about 20-40 minute run times) and you should have a great bird for recon.

Just my two bits.

Semper Fi!

Super-Hornet

Hi Wolfpack duce

My initial idea of getting helicopter is to mount a micro camera on it and fly using the camera view instead of looking at the chopper. This will give u more real life feeling of flying a chopper.

Draganflyer maybe good because it is design for something like flying saucer BUT there are review/forum who swear that this thing sucks in terms of stability.

Using micro-heli as a recon has goods and bad. Good is because it is dirt cheap in military standard. Bad is because it is too unstable...unless u have a very experience pilot controlling it.

U might need a very light and powerful Video Transmitter for your Micro-Heli (That goes to Draganflyer also) because its lifting power is considered weak.

Alternative is to use electric flying plane instead... or use Corona instead.

Super-Hornet

Dj Kriz

Wasn't the commercial Spy Hawk designed to have a camera fitted?

Dont know what performance is like though

turl

R u serious???

If u were close enough to fly a mini helicopter over the enemys heads u are definitely too close for comfort. ( Unless you have some kind of amplified radio gear i suppose)

I can imagine my AeroHawk spinning violently out of control above some bandits heads - might give one of them a nasty poke in the eye though when it inevitably comes crashing down

If u r serious I would think a larger electric heli would be more suited such as an eco16 but wouldnt fly so well in the mess hall [8D]

lawnhawk

I owned a version of the Draganflyer, they are almost useless for outdoor activity. I would say you need the Draganflyer X-Pro at a minimum for what you want, but even that bird is 5 grand.

I sure wouldn't use a small electric heli in a combat zone.

coltech

Forget using micro heli's for all the above reasons.
For serious camera work you need our bigger more powerful metal cousins. You'll also need to be expert to fly it.

Just my opinion

Wolfpack duce

Thanks for all of your prompt response and yes, I am serious, that's why I am asking the experts(you). Since you all have a good deal of experience with this I will clarify: We already have a small UAV at our level flown by video out to dozens of miles, and it is all encrypted etc. but it all started with off the shelf technology. We now are looking for something that is smaller(carry in a small pack) For looking in ditches at across the street kind of ranges and close up examination of explosives/ obstacles along a route we are traveling. Can be launched and landed quickly by one person. Sends back a video image. Off the ground, Limited downward rotor wash. Fair weather,Can be flown relatively easily with some training by guys with some rc experience. Can be easily and cheaply repaired in the field. And cheap enough to where we can buy several and if it gets damaged or blown up, it is no big deal(this is really cheap by gov. standards). Yes there are always some restrictions, but this is what an evaluation is all about and from what I have seen so far the DF is as close as we may be right now. Cheap RC cars are already being used with some success in this capacity to put explosives close to a suspicious object to blow it up over there, and this is the next possible step. If any of you have something you feel will fit the bill better that is off the shelf from one supplier and is available in 2 weeks, let me know And of course if anyone is REALLY serious we'd love to have you out here to show us your contraption and why it is better.-LtV

flyingchaos

Hi LtV,

My younger brother is in iraq right now.
If the iraquies are not technical enough to have equipment that senses where the radio signals are coming from or jamming all frequencies, then I think these helis are CHEAP enough for you to do covert ops.

I agree with everyone here...a gust of wind will blow these micros around! Its like a peice of paper being caught in the wind...

As you probably found out...there are cameras with builtin TX available which are DIRT cheap $79 complete RX&TX(military standard)
see http://www.raidentech.com/raidentech168/miwispyca.html
and are small enough for these helis to carry...though there is only a 1000' feet MAX line of sight range.

The restriction however is in the stock RC recievers...I beleive the range on these radio gear(stock) are only 300' to 500'. Not much..... You can get larger hobby RX and can go up to 1500'. Some claim 1 mile at line of sight.


I think some of the guys here may be confused at the draganflyer heli you mentioned(as I made the mistake before). The micro-level helis out there are (in the market):
[sorry if this is repeat info]

1. Draganflyer for about $750
Picture at: http://www.rctoys.com/draganflyer3.php

2. GWS or FEDA Mini Dragonfly ~$300

3. Hummingbird ~$300

4. Aerohawk or Skylark ~$300

5. Piccollo ~$400

6. MS Hornet ~$400-500

Prices are in USD and are approximate for COMPLETE HELI's with Radio and battery. You'll definitely need Lithium-polymer batteries(Li-Po) for long runtimes(20-40 minutes, average is 20minutes)

The Draganflyer(#1 above) is a 4 motor micro saucer. The rest(#2 through #6) are the conventional helicopter design in micro form.

My opinion of it all is that the Draganflyer has more CRITICAL parts to go wrong...(but I'm not sure how much more it can lift compared to the others)

The rest of the helis have two motors(one for main rotor, one for tail rotor), lots of parts available by lots of small vendors/distributors.



Hope this helps...

PoussmY

Quote from www.rctoys.com :

[Payloads and the Draganflyer IV

The standard battery for the Draganflyer IV is the 3-cell 2100mah lithium- polymer. This battery was able to carry a payload of 4 ounces while maintaining stable and useable flight. It lifted a payload of 11 ounces off the ground a few inches, and is not controllable. Between 4 and 11 ounces the helicopter becomes less and less stable, as the rotors become unable to provide the added thrust that the gyros utilize to maintain stability.]

The camera from rctoys weights 9 grams so no problem for lifting it but I don't know how muche weight military explosives...
It's range is about 300m but their are lots of 1.2/2.4 GHz emmetors that have a range form 3 to 4 miles and some IR cameras who can film by night...


The 4 rotor aircraft is a pretty good model for an UAV. The draganflyer IV the best commercial 4 rotor aircraft I've seen but it's true that military operations need perfect qualit and the wind may make it unstable.

rctoys says that their draganflyer is "virtually indestructible" but check this post : [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1258560/mpage_1/key_draganflyer/anchor/tm.htm#1258560]Draganfly iv. Anyone flew it?Control? [/link]

May that help you...

RCAV8R1

My Feedback: (1)

dragon-dude LT.

IMHO Forget using a micro helicopter with a camera. These things are not durable, rugged or easy to maintain in a combat environment. Logistics would be a problem also.

They are a time consuming hobby that may sound like a solution to your problem but with current technology they would be a liability to the USMC.

Many will not agree with the durable and rugged part (but in a combat zone with life on the line) they are not. The camera does not have great depth perception or range. Flying out of eye sight around corners or inside building would be next to impossible unless in a completely controlled environment. You can't judge distance from a IED/AMBUSH site with the camera, getting the helo over the suspect IED and keeping this platform stable to ID would be a challenge even with-in line of sight.

My suggestion would be to buy cheap RC Cars to trigger IED's/conduct surveillance with. Then again if it looks suspect I would shoot it!

Keep you eyes open and treat everything as suspect and get everyone in your charge back safe.

helisfreak

My Feedback: (1)

Using micro helicopter like (aerohawk, dragonfly, ect) flying over the enemy line is no diff. then just poor your money into the iraq sand.... i mean... and talking about spying... lol.... i mean.. these thing don't even fly that long.. unless u have lipo and brushless... and you're already talking about upgrading... cnc head and all that crap... I currently have an aerohawk... and i also have a wire less spy cam... and trust me.... u can use it to spy on YOUR CAT.... your wife.... not YOUR ENEMY... One problem which i believe is the biggest from micro helicopter is.. they will get SMACK by the wind... 4-5 mph... and they can hardly stay in same altitude... go up and down crazy due to fix pitch... And tail motor problem.. lol... 70% chance that ur tail motor will burn out... and guess wut??? "the end" ... SO what i suggest is mid size helicopter... Eco 16... helicopter that has CP and Tail Drive Shaft...

Wolfpack duce

Hey, thanks for all of your responses, keep'em coming. Just to clarify so we are on the same page, the helo we're looking at is the 4 rotor, gyro stabilized $900 Draganflyer 4 with the eyecam, not a conventional helo. The suggestion about the mid-size is good, but they can't be taken down for storage, correct? We also don't want to lift anything else with it, and of course won't fly it in high (any) wind. We are looking at the cars too, this is just another item with potential we want to try out here in the states and may scrap if the tech is too far behind. We also fly basically a high speed rc plane with a lot of fancy video cameras on it so we do have some experience. We are mostly concerned with maintenance suggestions for the motors and circuitry and if anyone has made any efforts to make their birds more dust resistant. And if all else fails I may have a slightly used Draganflyer for sale in a little while. -V

Super-Hornet

Hi Wolfpack duce

If you really serious about it... I still think Draganflyer (4 Rotor Flying Saucer) NOT UP TO THE Task.
Why?
The blades are weak.
Lifting maybe a problem. I think u are going to use Military Standard TX at least so your Receiver might be big also. Video Camera are small so should not be any problem but U need a good Transmitter for your video. I don't think u going to use those milliWatt of transmitter (Commercial for parent to spy kids) because your signal might get block by building or trees. So u need a higher wattage transmission power. Let say u go for 1Watt... your TX for video is going to be bigger and so do the power consumption. Therefore u need bigger battery also. With all that... Draganfly may not able to carry all those weight.

Possible choice:
1. Corona
2. Hornet
3. Nitro Chopper.

Super-Hornet

helisfreak

My Feedback: (1)

SuperHornet is right... you would diffinitely need a stronger transmitter for the video... the spy came i have... it lose signal if you move it arround to much... and I diffinitely don't think the dragonfly will lift all that wieght... But im sure you don't want to use NItro chopper in this case.. need maintain and stuff.. and hard time to get it to run since it nitro... that why i suggest electric.. but mid size.. should do the job just find... when i mean mid size.. which is a little bigger then micro... it should be easy to pack it... fold the blade... take off the tail... simple... Wouldn't it be cool if we all RC freak can join ur team eh.. kakaka.. then we can go fight with our helicopter... lol.. if i have a standdard nitro heli.. i would stick a paint ball gun on it.. ahahaha.. shoot someone.. lol

Wolfpack duce

Okay, I was going with the info from rctoys with the standard package they put together with the their Draganflyer 4 and eyecam package. They claim you will only fly the DF as far as you can see it(aprox 100-200 meters) and the video transmits back much further than that. We only want to use it within that sort of range, but are particularly interested in the ability to hover from a few feet to maybe 50-100 ft up and that's it for 5-10 minutes. These are the characteristics I am most interested in if you could comment. I have a few real helo pilots here that say they could figure it out and teach it with minimal damage plus a few guys that having heard about it have some civilian rc experience, they may just want to play with a cool toy on the Gov. dime. Thanks again and keep the ideas comming. If it does work I should have some great video to send you all.-V

Dj Kriz

Ohh sorry to respond late if you haven't seen these sites, they COULD be helpful.

www.airfoilaviation.com

These sites are for model powered parachutes, simple 2ch.
They fly pretty slow (about 5mph at slowest) and they also are very stable and bigger (not too big) heavier models dont rock so much. This is because of their pendulum stability.

On their website they have an electric model also. (The only noise is from the prop which can be a little loud but can be reduced a bit by the right prop so experimenting is good)

or a varient, alot more sturdier is the powerglider www.powerglider.com
and they also have electric.

I have an electric model, flies very easy, flyable by ANYONE! even if they have never came across radio control models before (so probably dont need any training) They are quite cheap, and cant be crashed to easy, and have long flight times with gas powered flying up to 40 minutes.

Gracias Kriz

glennT

This is interesting! I remember seen on TV small birds (both fixed wings and micro helis) used by the military, operated remotely from a laptap. The birds are sophisticated and fly way better than the micro helis we play with. Maybe not in wide use yet.

Anyway, LtV, we would love to see your videos...fra Iraq!

Super-Hornet

Yup... I actually do watch some documentary by discovery channel where U.S. military using those micro to small electric RC plane for reconnission. Maybe LtV wanted to do something different.

Super-Hornet

blueprints

This is definately a thread to look out for in the coming weeks.....

Wolfpack duce

Site Admin,
I was wondering if this is the type of discussion you wanted to promote on your site. I have no problem with it, but it is a little off topic. I was sent this private, but I feel that if someone feels this strongly they deserve to have their voice heard.

FROM PIPEFISH:

Hey Lt,
what about you all get the f*** out of Iraq. You and your troops went there to find some nukes that don´t even exist and you killed LOTS of civilians!!!
So, come back to your house and enjoy your family and play with the DraganFly on your yard, because LOTS of iraqis cannot make it anymore!!!

WD responded:

I apreciate your interest in this topic, and value your input. I would rather you post your messages on the public forum so any other interested parties may offer up their opinion. If you feel this strongly about something you should voice your views publicly. After all, people in my line of work have been fighting and dying for over 225 years to ensure you can freely express yourself, you're welcome. I will assist you by posting this message for you, so we can continue on the public forum. Thanks for your interest-WD

Banished Outside

Ouch!

Well Done WD

Wolfpack duce

Thanks BO, I just was wondering if this thread had died off, and now it gets interesting again. For anyone interested, I have a meeting with the money weilders next week to see if I can get a DF to try out. I'll keep posting.

As long as admin has no problem with getting off topic, I'll discuss whatever with whoever.-WD

Banished Outside

Off topic again....

My mate was out in Basra (QDG brit army), let's just say he was glad to hear he wasn't going back this time!

Keep posting - I'm interested.

Wolfpack duce

Tell him they did a great job. I have a brother-in-law who just got out of the royal Marines. I was there for the invasion and saw plenty of excitement, and I'm going back again in a few months. Should be interesting.