So Bob have you tried any run's on your gasoline/E85 mix yet??? please let me know your results

Hi aeronut, guess you missed this post two pages back:

Hi,

Well, here's some results done with my hopped up Kioritz 23.6cc. I installed a new Fox glow plug, and ran my mixture of half regular gasoline and half E-85, mixed 40:1 with Pennzoil for Aircooled Motors. The motor gained a couple of hundred rpms over the electronic ignition/spark plug and pure gas setup, and idled much slower and smoother. It also hand started nicely, though occassionally in reverse. It would not however, run with the glow power turned off. When I turned the glow power off it would immediately begin to misfire, and then die. I'm guessing the ethanol, even at this percentage, doesn't have the catalytic reaction with the glow plug that methanol supports. Bummer, but the other gains are nice, as well as having less weight on board. I measured the amp draw of the glow plug with a good mulitmeter, and it is less than 1 amp. A 3000 mah on board battery should last a lot longer than I care to fly...

Another observation: It really does like to start much wetter than with the standard setup. I normally don't use chokes; just finger over the carb and flip 'till it gets wet, then fire her up. However, this setup likes to be so wet to start that I put the choke back in the carb. Then it's flip with the choke shut at low idle until it fires and quits. Then flip with half choke until it starts and once it warms up, (which takes a couple of minutes), open the choke fully.

It will be interesting when I get a chance to try that mix I mentioned of 3:1 gasoline/Morgan Sidewinder model fuel!

AV8TOR

AV8TOR;

I tried the 3 to 1 mix you mentioned only I used 20% cool power fuel.
It idles a little rough but it idles reliable at 1500 rpms or lower. I might try 50%gas 50% methanol mixed 3 to 1 with teh glow fuel and see if it smooths out. The top is the very good.
I have been messing with props but with a 20X8W APC my homey 45cc is turning 7,000 on the dot however it takes to long to spool up so I am going back to wood.
Glow plug powered all the time.

Hi,

Thanks for the update. The 20% nitro might be a bit too much, but I'm only guessing. Since my engine idles slowly and much more smoothly on the E-85 mixture on glow, I'm wondering if the nitro or too much oil is causing you problems. I figured on using 10% oil model car fuel as at the ratio I worked out that would provide about the correct amount of oil for these engines. Did you get the carb well adjusted for the new fuel mix?

So, another question, would it run without the glow power?

Thanks,
AV8TOR

Hi guys,

Yesterday I tested ethanol with 25% castor, no nitro and got:
2800 rpm idle
10800 rpm full throttle

Engine is a 40LA with a 10x6 MA. The plug is an A3, almost new (1 flight).

Here ethanol is sold as car fuel, it has 4% water and some gas. The gas just to become undrinkable.

I think the idle is some high, but the full is satisfactory, only 200 rpm below than with a sports Byron (10% nitro). The engine needs some "warm up", otherwise if you give full throttle right after start, it dies. The needle become more sensitive, I think because no nitro was used. The transition is OK, but rougher than Byron.

I was conservative putting 25% castor, I know that the mixture must be leaner for ethanol, so less fuel, less oil... Surprinsingly, no need to turn much the needle, just the normal range for methanol. I was expecting 50% difference in mixture, but the engine started at first flip and no need to keep the glow driver. Does somebody have a guess ?

By the way, does somebody know the temperature readings for the engine at the head ?

Regards

How about 4 cycle engines on glow-gas mix?
RCIGN1
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Thanks Capt,n

Posts: 3038
Joined: 2/7/2003
From: Williams, AZ, USA
Status: offline Honda GX25, Shindaiwa 25 and 34, Briggs and Stratton 34...All ran about the same, around 7500 with an 18-6 Mejzlik..The Shindaiwa 34 turned 8000 with a larger carb...
Stihl makes a 64.9 cc backpack blower four cycle, 7200 with a 22-10 and 6400 with a 24-8..
There are pages about four cycle weed trimmers, do a search...

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(in reply to RysiuM)
Report | Post #: 3



RE: Anyone converted 4-cycle gas string trimmer? - 9/8/2005 4:18:11 PM


pcjohnson_ohio
Super Contributor







Posts: 60
Joined: 4/30/2002
From: Toledo, OH, USA
Status: offline I just picked up the exact same trimmer from Meijers for $55, brand new display item, missing the spool
Started on the first pull (I've heard some can be difficult to start) Idle's beautifully
Still toying with the idea of conversion vs. using it as a trimmer
After reading everything you and AeroNut have done with glow plugs and Gas/Methanol, I'm wondering if it would work on a 4 cycle
One problem though, the carb doesn't appear to have adjustable needles (at least I can't find them)
Just need to take the plunge, I guess
Pete

< Message edited by pcjohnson_ohio -- 9/8/2005 8:59:42 PM >

(in reply to RysiuM)

I think you need a really hot glow plug to keep it running on 4-stroke (or maybe power it all the time).

But like stated in quoted thread, I don't see any reason to use 4-stoke (Ryobi) for airplane - to many parts for to deal with. Engine is to heavy for the power out. When I asked the question there I thought that maybe it will have bigger torque so it can run 20 or bigger prop. Nope. So not worth the trouble when 2- stroke for the same power/torque is twice lighter and three times cheapper.

RysiuM

Here we go, it's time to buy WT 499 for methanol power. Gas is more expensive than methanol here (by gallons).[:@]
Now I feel really sorry for guys with DA-150 or other giant engines. Flying 120 glow seems so cheep now.

RysiuM

Just a question for you all, I'm trying to get my Poulan 25cc conversion running well on glow. I have tried an OS type F plug (the 4 stroke one) as I beleive its a hot plug. With straight petrol/oil mix it did not run really well even with the glow powered all the time, and trying 25% methanol, 70% petrol, 5% oil made pretty much no difference. Ideally I was to run straight petrol as there is no mixing to fart about with and its easily available, where as Methanol is more difficult over here.

So I'm thinking if I should be using a different plug but a search back through the tread does not really mention plugs for larger petrol engines. Is the type F the best plug, or should I be using a #8, A3, something with an idle bar etc etc? To loose the onboard glow would be even better so any suggestions or info from your tests appreciated.

Cheers,
Rich

Hi Rich,

Welcome to the 'glow club'

You have the same engine, and mine runs on glow just fine (even better than with spark). I also tried to run my Poulan with increased compression (like your engine). And it runs even better.

I know, you cut ports so it is not the same any more, but I don't think it may affect the quality of running. The only reason I suspect is the glow plug. It if glows it should ignite the mixture.

So for the first test power your plug and check if it has enough temperature. It should be light orange. It it's red, it is to cold. It it's yellow, it will not last long I noticed, that even the first coil is not bright it does not affect the running as long as the rest of the coil glows orange. When I had a weak battery and the coil was red, angine missed and run very rough.

The other thing could be the position of the glow plug. Mine is flush with the bottom of the spark plug (the end of the thread, not the electrode). I used demolished original spark plug for glow adapter, so as far as the original spark plug went, my glow goes the same.

The last thing may be the gasoline type. In California gasoline is so modified (CA Emmision). Who knows what they add to it. I don't think they do MTBE any more but for sure some detergents and other stuff. Maybe ethanol - who knows.
Anyway if you mix methanol with gasoline and at least you will be sure that 50% of the fuel is known.
I found adding nitro didn't help at all - I got strange pinging. But 50% methanol 50% gasoline plus 3% oil (it makes 103% all together ) and the engine run like a clockwatch. 50% methanol didn't affect the carb setting much but keeps glow plug hot even at 1700rpm idle.

RysiuM

I made my glow adaptor so the plug sits flush with the bottom the thread so sounds the same as yours, but which glow plug do you use...? I've only got two types (OS type F and Firepower F7) as I only fly 4 stroke glow! I'll just go out and buy a different one if there is a really good one for large engines.

Cheers,
Rich

Everyone is using 4 strike glow plugs, usually F-4.

pardon my ignorance, who makes the F-4..? Its not one I've seen or heard of, just about the whole of the UK runs OS type F in four strokes I think and certainly all my 4 strokes run the type F.

Cheers,
Rich

I'm using OS F. This is because it has long thread . I never paid attention to hot-cold for this engine. Reading back my post the story was:
1. I run some old unknown glow plug powered all the time and the engine run fine. If glow was powered it doesn't matter if it's hot or cold type as coil supposed to be glowing from the current.

2. Old plug didn't run well without power (drop rpm) even with methanol/gas mixture. The reason was (I think) because it didn't have much platinium left on it. When I replaced it with new OS F the engine run without powering the glow plug (on methanol/gas mixture).

There may be another reason for your problems - your cut transfer ports are blowing cold air/fuel directly on the glow plug. I don't know - just guessing.

RysiuM

O.S. makes the plug.

Its hotter than the O.S. #8

The O.S. "F" plug is the same as the F4 which stands for Four stroke, and thats the plug to use.

Hey captinjhon in this thread or somewhere else I read about a guy running a robin 26 cc four stroke on glow and gas/methanol an said that the engine runned very smooth with more power and very good transition he used an OS F type plug(4 stroke) and didn't need to use a power source to keep it running, so give it a try on your 4 stroke and te4ll us your results.

Hi,

The testing I posted was done with a Fox long idle bar plug. Haven't tried others, and that one would only run well with the glow power on all the time with my E-85/Gasoline mix. But it does run very well.

I picked up some glow fuel to try a 3 to 1 mix, but haven't had time to try it yet.

AV8TOR

AERO NUT: I do not have the 4 stroke engine yet but am thinking of trying some knid of 4 cycle withe gas/alcky mix. I was hope to get others that already have a4 cycle of any type to try the mix....and let us know how it works. Thanks Capt,n

Well converts I tried my 50/50 gasl/methanol with a regular flywheel magneto ignition Ryobi 31 on an APC 18x6W prop and I could see an increase in my rpms vs regular gasoline (8500 vs 8000) a gain of 400-500 rpms and my fuel economy is comparable with gasoline maybe 10% less but the gain in rpms and the smoothness on the transition response was all worthed , so I can conclude that any converted engine would bennefit from this mixture, I've noticed that different engines behave different with the fuel mixture as far as glow conversion is concern some may need nitro others don't and that because of the timing characteristics or the compresion ratios that each type of engines posses, so I woul suggest that one should try the mixture and see what results one gets and on what ever engine it was done, I am going to try and increase the compresion on my ryobi so I can run it on glow without nitro or battery power hooked at all times. Till then Happy flying and landings from your buddy down in Baja.
Aero Nut.

Hey Bob how are you running with your Kioritz engine on the fuel mix, are you usisg constant glow power or are you running it without the battery? How's the weather in penasco????
If you try glow fuel(20-20 kind which is 20%nitro and 20%oil) with E85 at 1:3 mixture and then mix wit gasoline at 50/50 you'll end with 2.5% oil, 2.5 nitro and the rest of the fuel will be 50%gasoline,11.25%methanol and 33.75% e85, I might try this combination but with methanol instead of E85. this would be a source for nitro and get the low oil content that is need it on our conversions (about a 50:1 ratio)

One note - to much oil is not really bad. I run my Poulan on 1:50 oil and it run very dry. I mean when it stopped I hardly felt much compression. After running on 1:25 the compression felt quite well to the point where the flipping the prop was like flipping, not turning. Lower oil content didn't improve rpm at all (or maybe it lowered it a little). Of course more oil in = more oil out -> dirty plane, but I would rather clean the plane than have a 'dry' squicky feel on the prop. With conversion engines I would stay with at least 3% oil (I even tried 6% and engine run fine).

The other thing that is different from a 'glow' ennges, is that whacker conversions don't need to be run rich. If you have enough oil for lubrication the engine can be tuned for max rpm. They don't need to be cooled by the oil. Fins on the cylinder are big enough to run them just fine. They were designed to run on hot fuel (gasoline) and the engine runs enclosed in the plastic box (trimmer or chain saw head) without much cooling air around.

This is just on the side note.

RysiuM

Rysium, you make a good point about the mixture with these gassers. It is not good to run them as rich as we normally run the glow engines. They don't need it, and will carbon up if you do so. When they get carboned up, the ring will get "frozen" in its land, and then the blow by will cause a seizure. One of the inspection procedures for Ultralight Aircraft two stroke engines is to pull off the exhaust and look into the port while turning the engine back and forth to see that the ring(s) are still free in their lands.

Aeronut, I only have test stand time on the Kioritz/glow engine at this time. However, I was impressed that it gained power on my Gasoline/E-85 mix, and very impressed with the slow, smooth idle. It won't run with the glow power disconnected however. I don't think the ethanol supports the catalytic reaction with the glow plug that methanol does. I'm going to run it anyway, with full time glow power. I'm finishing up a GSP Katana 72" plane with this engine, so will have some flight results soon I hope. These Kioritz engines are great! RTF weight in the glow version is about 2.5 lbs., and the small physical size enabled me to completely enclose the engine in the Katana cowl. I bought some glow fuel to play with glow/gasoline mixes, but decided to stop experimenting for the moment in order to finish this plane.

Weather is starting to get nicer here. Not so hot in the mornings and evenings. Flying from the beach is the greatest!

AV8TOR

Hi guys,

Getting closer to flying my Katana with the Kioritz on glow. I religiously run my glow engines dry and use after run oil, but don't think it's necessary for gas engines unless they are going to be laid up for a good while. But what do you think about a gasser running ethanol? Is the ethanol hygroscopic and corrosive like methanol??

Later post... Having trouble with my onboard glow battery dying too fast. I'll run some cycle tests on it, and maybe double up on batteries, but what is the lowest percentage of methanol you guys have been able to run and not use glow power??

Thanks,
AV8TOR

Has anyone else thought about running this in your automobile?

$3.00 for gas and $2.00 for alky is $2.50 a gallon.

I just put 80 gallons in my motorhome.

How bad would it be on fuel injection, how about on Quadrajets?

Just Food for thought....