Mitty

Good morning fellow converts.

Happy easter to those of you who celebrates.

Sitting here and thinking...Gas here today is $2.15/gal. Methanol in race shop is $2.99/gal.If i mix methanol fuel the same as i mix my 2stroke fuel (40:1) i recon it won't cost me too much to burn methanol instead of gas.Yet i can saw all that weight of my engine.Plus will save 100$ for electronic ignition.
What pros and cons of such conversion eh?Please let me know.
Thanks,
Mitty

tkg

My Feedback: (1)

Fuel burn with alky is 2x what it is with gas. So you need a 2x larger fuel tank to get the same run time. Alky is "dry" so you will need a 20:1 oil mix. The carb may need to be rejeted to allow enough fuel. Idle may get a little vibratie because of advanced timing.
Good news is more power and a simpler lighter engine, so AFTER you burn down the fuel load you plane will be lighter for landing.

Mitty

TKG,i am thinking of converting 18 cc weedeater to glow.Do you think this tiny engine will be suitable for any 3d plane? What prop should i run on glow.What prop on gas? 18 cc i mean...

tkg

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry no idea about 3d, don't do a lot of glow You could use thew Walbro wt499 carb if you want to try
Converted to gas we used 14x8 props turned them in the low 7000 range, not a lot of engine.

bn120

My Feedback: (1)

I convert all my engines to glow except 40cc and above, for the smaller gassers I mix mine the same as gas, you do consume twice the fuel so you also use twice the oil.
no goey mess, still cheap and no gas smell. the problem with your engine is a magnum xls.91 will out pull it.

Darin

RingWinger

Darin,

You mentioned that you don't convert 40cc and above to glow. Can you explain why? I'm interesting in giving the gas to glow conversion a try and I have an Echo 4600 leaf blower motor that would work as a glow convert, but since I read your post I'm not so sure now.

Thanks,

Poppy

bn120

My Feedback: (1)

Ringwinger at about 30cc the fuel consumption goes up and the amount of glow fuel needed well exceeds the weight of electronic ignition on gas, up to about 30cc the glow fuel needed to run vs. and electronic ign. and gas balance each other out.

Darin

RingWinger

Darin,

Thank you for the explanation. This makes perfect sense now.

I tried to mix Coleman camper stove fuel with methanol and was unhappy with the results. I used Amsoil Saber synthetic oil. It did not help hold the mixture together any better with or without the addition of this oil. I was able to dissolve about 15% gas into 85% pure methanol but this did not allow me to use that stock carb as I was hoping for.

After looking at many threads I came to understand that I need either E-85 or ethanol if I want to mix at a higher ratio, but E-85 is not available here in Eugene Oregon. We don’t have air pollution at high levels yet.

Denatured alcohol would also work, but it cost too much.

So If I want to use Methanol it looks like I have to buy a new carb or I should stick with magneto ignition on Coleman stove fuel.

Since I from the cheap school of aviation science, or perhaps you could call it the Lawn and Garden Aviation Center, I’ll just have to accept the weight of the flywheel and coil.

I’m always looking for other suggestion.

Poppy

tkg

My Feedback: (1)

Klotz KL100 and KL200 will blend with gas or Alky. Don't know if that would help you up the ratio of the gas

aero nut

Why don't you try the opposite proportions, 85% coleman gas and 15%methanol or perhaps 80/20 then you'll be able to use your amsoil in a 50:1 ratio, also if you can get a little bit of Nitro it will help if not is OK, let me know how it works compared to gasoline/methanol?

Slade EoD

aero nut;
I have 2 Ryobis and two 25cc Homelites that i have been working on when i can.I was trying to decide either an electronic ignition or leave the flywheel/mag deal on them.I saw your results on the 80/20 gasoline/methanol fuel mix and that is the way i am going with all of them now.My hats off to you on this one!Great Work!!!!!!Do you think the big bore carbs that Wacker Engines sells has a large enough venturi or will i need to bore it out to get the .400 that you recomended?This should be a very interesting project,i am planning on Bowman rings etc.and i am going to put one of the Ryobis in my Katana X to see if i can get it to hover and do the 3d stuff.If that even comes close to happening i have a new lighter more extreme version of the Katana i have in the works that i am going to build ,if the first one won't 3D the second design should,,hopefully a total of ten pounds including the engine.

aero nut

Great slade! I think that the big bore carbs from wacker engines are good enough for the ryobi, My friend is flying his Ryobi (used to be mine) on a giant scale planes Katana and it flys so beautiful that I was thinking on buying one and do the same combo, but right now well until 2 weeks ago I was so happy with my echo 25 on Gasoline/E85/ glow and Hobby People's EXCITE 90 combo until it got "stolen" from my van so now I dont have a plane for the moment and don't think I will in the inmediate future because I have to finish building some of the Ryan's Rebels that I sell.
But keep it up try that set up and let me know your results.
As a piece of information on my last 4 flights I had replaced the O.S. 4 stroke plug for a R/C standard plug with Idle Bar and was working phenomally wit good idle response and transition.
Later Aero Nut

Slade EoD

aero nut;
MAN! somebody stole your plane!I feel so bad for you! SHEE*****HAT SUX!!!!
Let me know when you get caught up with those Ryan's Rebels..i want one from you also.No big hurry,i built ten new planes over the last year and have some crashing to do,hehe!whenever you have the time though i do want one of your planes.I am somewhat excited about your fuel formula and really can take the hacksaw to some of these engines and trim more of the the fat so to speak from them.If these engines do well from now on most of the designs i dream up will be for the Homelite 25 ,30 , 33,and the Ryobi 31cc engines.There is a Ryobi out there that does not have the decompression slots in the head,i do believe it is the 775R,i wonder what that engine would do with Bowman rings etc.

Thanks for the info on the carbs from Wacker Engines,gonna use them along with everything else he has for these engine conversions.I have alot of planes and need quite a few engines,with the cost of a retail engine being in the $300 to $500 anymore,welp,,,FORGET THAT!No thanks,i will stick with these conversions.Just call me CHEAP!

RingWinger

Hello Aero Nut,

Yes, I tried the 80% Coleman Stove Fuel and 20% Methanol. This mixture simple will not combine. Even with the use of Amsoil Saber Synthetic oil added to the mixture.

I have been following you suggestion on “Engine Conversions� for a couple of years, and you comments encouraged me to give this a gas/methanol mixture a try.

I setup a several jars and dug out my plastic syringes to measure the components very accurately.

First I tried the 80gas/20methenol. It separated into two distinct layers. I could shake up the mixture but it would separate out with in 1 minute.

I then tried a whole series of mixtures using simple ratios starting at 90% gas to 10% methanol up to the opposite end of the spectrum to 90% methanol to 10% gas.

The experiment showed that you can make a mixture that is soluble at a ratio of approximately 15% Stove fuel to 85% methanol. The Methanol will not absorb any more gas. It will begin to separate out if the ratio is increased. The other mixture that you suggest is not possible. Since the gas rejects the methanol.

Next I did the same set of experiments using the Amsoil to see if the oil will allow the mixture to stay mixed. I did not see any appreciable improvement with the addition of this type of oil

I suspect that Klotz KL 100 or KL200 my make a noticeable improvement, but after investigating methanol, I have come to the conclusion that E85 (which is a mixture of ethanol and gas is possible but the combination of Methanol and gas is not possible with an mixture greater that 85% Methanol and 15% gas.

I have read that you are a Chemist, could you please advise?

I was so excited by the possibility of using the 80gas/20methonal that I did a bit of machine work as posted in the link:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Gas_...2857292/tm.htm

So like you I was looking for a way to run my lawn and garden Airforce without a magneto, or spark ignition and not have to find a new carb.

I tried to run the mixture of 85% Methanol and 15% gas but the engine will only run if I have the choke set up to ½ open and it is not possible to meter this mixture with the stock carb.

I’m confused by your suggestion to give 80%gas and 20% Methanol a try. I don’t understand how you could keep this mixture suspended. I watched a clear fuel line while I tried to feed this mixture into the engine. The fuel separated into separate balls of gas or Methanol. It was unworkable for me. Perhaps I missed something in one of your threads.

Again, I applaud your effort and the work you have done to promote this experiment. I would be happy to try E-85, but we don’t have it here in Eugene Oregon yet. You can still breath the air here.

Please get a glass jar and make this mixture of 80 gas/20 methanol. I suspect the gas is polar and the Methanol molecule is non-polar, thus Methanol is capable of attaching to gas up to the point of saturation of point, which appears to be approximately 15%. Ethanol having a different structure must be able to bond with polar molecules at a much higher ratio.

Please advise,

Respectfully,

Poppy.

aero nut

On my work I haven't tried Coleman gas with methanol; so I don't know how it will mix, but from what I 've can see is that probably your methanol is contaminated with water It happened to me before where I was getting a lot of dissociation of the mixture for using an old methanol can that I had stored for a long time, methanol is very hygroscopic which it means that it will absorb moisture even from the air, and I know for a fact that oregon has a very high humidity index or am I wrong? try making your combinations with fresh methanol if possible and see if you get any change in your results, Oh and by the way don't use coleman fuel it contains some other ingredient that makes the mixture rather impossible try the walmart brand I think is called ozark or something that is pure white gas fuel, you can also attach a tube to the end of a starting fluid sray nozle and spray the fluid to the bottom of your fuel mixture and see if it mixes, ether disperses water that 's what I was using when I had that bad methanol and it helped with the mix stability.

RingWinger

Hello Aero Nut,


Thanks you for the suggestions.

I have a fresh can of Ozark fuel and I'll give that a try.

My Methanol was purchased fresh the day of the experiements and keep in metal 1 gal containers. Hopefully the supplier did not allow excess atmosphere gasses to asscociate with the fuel. It did come out a a very large bulk container. Perhaps it does have water contamination.

Yes, the west coast of Oregon is very moist.

I have a can of ether that I'll give a shot to see if this helps also.

I hope to get this done today, so please check back for the results.

Thanks again


Poppy

RingWinger

Hello Aero Nut,


Success!

I tried the Ozark stove fuel at a ratio of 80% Stove fuel to 20% methanol. It behaved exactly like Coleman Stove fuel.

BUT, when I sprayed a shot of starting fluid (a mixture of Diethyl Ether and Heptane) it mixed perfectly. Crystal clear. Heptane is the propellant. I called as ask the manufacture about this a couple of years ago. I’m quite sure I remember this correctly.

Here is what I did,

I mixed 8ml of Ozark fuel with 2ml of methanol. I agitated the mixture. It turned milky, then settle out with two distinct layers.

I grabbed the starting fluid and gave it a 1 second shot and agitated the mixture. Some improvement could be seen, still milky, but it helped to suspension twice as long.

I gave it one more 1-second blast of ether/starting fluid, agitated and it went crystal clear and has stayed mixed for over two hours. I’m sure it will not separate now.

The question is how much ether did I add? Perhaps 1 or 2 percent, it would not be more that 3%.

The down side is that starting fluid is not exactly cheap, but at 2%, well lets see, if a gallon is 128 oz then 2% of a gallon is 6.4 oz. I think most cans have about 12 fluid oz.

As for how to hand ether. I always put the can in the freezer. I keep it in the freezer overnight if I need a full can. I remove it from the freezer, go far away from the house with a glass jar.

I use an awl and punch one hole just to the side of the spray head on the curved dome surface. Then I invert the can into the glass jar. It will slowly flow out of the can if you had is in the freezer all-night and used gloves to hand the can.

After the can is empty then lightly set the lid on top of the jar. DO NOT PUT THE JAR LID ON THIGH NOW.

With the lid loose set the whole affair in the shade outdoors for ½ hours. The mixture will bubble for 20 to 30 minutes as the heptane boils off. After the boiling stops you can tighten the lid.

Do not store ether in a plastic container. It can pass through the wall of a plastic container.

That is the downside of the whole mixture. You need to store the mixture in metal or glass. I suggest you only use glass to allow you to study the boiling and transfer the ether to a metal container. Only open the container when the contents are cold.

Next I have to test this mixture in my Ryobi this week sometime. I have a glow plug installed in an adapter that I built using an old spark plug.

Stayed tuned for further details,

Poppy

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

As I recall, from many years ago, when we were mixing fuels that would not go into solution, we added 1/2 oz. of banana oil per gallon to the mix. That put the mix into a stable solution. If you can get some banana oil it's worth a try.

aero nut

Great job Poppy! When I was doing the mixture Gasoline/Methanol/Ether I was doing it at a 80/15/5 % and then treated as a single fuel to do the 50:1 ratio with the oil; on the subject of regular gasoline vs. white fuel I really don't know if white gas mix with amsoil or not so let me know what your results are, that's one of the reasons I am using gasoline because gasoline will mix with any 2 stroke gasoline engine oil, if amsoil is not avbailable I like using Mobil's MX2T synthetic racing oil, another source for oil is Motorcycle shops or dealers which might distribute the VP brand of oils or the Maxima brand they both have a synthetic or castor in a pure form or blended so good luck with your testing.
Bill Pomplun.

RingWinger

Hello Antique,


Thank you for the suggestion to use Banana Oil.

What is Banana Oil? I have no idea where I would purchase such a product.


Thanks,

Poppy

RingWinger

Aero Nut,

I mixed up a ratio of 80% stove fuel to 20% methanol and then started to add acetone to the mixture. When I got to about 10 or 15% by total volume the methanol and gas combined into a crystal clear mixture.

After surfing the web for data on Acetone and Methanol I was surprised to find data that suggested that Acetone is the preferred additive


You can read the attached data:

FUELS
by John Modistach
I have been mixing fuel commercially for model airplane engines for close to 20 years and have encountered numerous problems with the resultant product with various engines. When sport engines "act up" on a standard brew of 4:1 Methanol/Castor, there is a need to experiment. I have found that Methanol can vary from season to season and can some times cause motors to run extremely hot and inconsistent. The remedy is generally to do what Shell Oil Co has seen fit for as long as I've known their products and add 3% Acetone to the mixture. This action can turn an un co-operative engine into a well behaved engine. Recently I researched the topic further and found a very interesting section in Graham Bell's book on Two Strokes. One of my fellow club members had contacted BP following his encounter with an Enya 40 SS BB and their Chemist sent a table of information which I have included.
In my experience with Four Stroke engines, I personally run a blend of 5% acetone and have never had a back-fire resulting in a prop being thrown. The following information supports my findings and will provide you with some FACTS, instead of listening to the local club member expressing a view and ultimately confusing the issue.

Extracts from Performance Tuning in Theory & Practice - Two Strokes by Graham Bell
Page 117
" I recommend the use of racing fuels in which the higher octane is obtained by blending additives such as acetone, toluol(methyl benzine), benzol, ethanol or methanol."
Page 118
"Methanol ( Methyl Alcohol) and Ethanol (Ethyl alcohol) have an octane rating of 140 - 160, depending on mixture richness. These fuels therefore can be used with very high compression ratios."
Methanol and ethanol have very high latent heat of vaporisation, ie, it takes a lot of heat to convert them from a liquid into vapour. Petrol has a latent heat of evaporation of 135 Btu/lb., methanol 472 Btu/lb., and ethanol 410 Btu/lb.. This heat, required for proper atomisation, is removed from the piston crown, combustion chamber and the cylinder, resulting in an internally cooler engine.
The two stroke engine is a type of heat engine, ie.one that burns fuel to cause the expansion of gas and the subsequent movement of the piston. The more heat produced by the combustion process, the more pressure there will be exerted on the piston, which gives us a power increase.
Using Petrol, the fuel/air ratio for best power is 1 : 12.5. With methanol we can increase the fuel/air ratio to 1 : 4.5, although I usually prefer a ratio of 1 : 5.5. Less than 1:7 is too lean. One pound of Methanol delivers around 9800 Btu.
Methanol is extremely poisonous and, as it is an accumulative poison, it can build up over a period of time and oxidise to form formaldehyde, eventually causing blindness or even insanity. It is absorbed through the skin and lungs, either by direct contact or from the vapours. Inhalation of the exhaust gas can also be dangerous as vaporised methanol is usually present, especially when rich mixtures are being used.
Methanol and ethanol will absorb huge amounts of water out of the air, so they must always be kept in an air-tight container. The fuel will also have to be completely drained from the tank and the carburettor to prevent the formation of water-induced corrosion and oxidisation.
In colder climates, starting difficulties may be encountered when pure alcohol is being burned. Some use other more volatile fuels blended in to help overcome this problem. Usually 5% acetone or a maximum of 3% ether is used.
Page 120
Nitro methane, as such, isn't really a good fuel but it can give two-stroke engines a power boost if used sensibly. Nitro's only virtue is that it contains approximately 53% by weight oxygen, so in effect it is a chemical super-charger. In drag car engines it is blended 80-90% nitro to 10-20% methanol, but there is no way a two-stroke engine can hold together with more than a 20% nitro-80% methanol blend (recall that this was originally written for full size engines). To deter detonation, or other engine damage, it is always necessary to lower the compression ratio. Care is in order when handling nitro methane, as it may become explosive.
The TABLES indicate the basic fuels available to the racer. Some may be neat or blended, others are combustion accelerators and, as such, are blended in very small quantities with alcohol fuels only.
When methanol or ethanol is the base fuel, propylene oxide may be added to increase the combustion flame speed. If you decide to use propylene oxide, be very careful to blend in not more than 3-5% by volume and ensure a rich fuel/air mixture of 1:4.5-5.0 is maintained. Propylene oxide can become explosive if allowed to come in contact with rust particles or copper and its alloys. Therefore it must be stored in plastic or aluminium containers. Once blended with other fuels it is relatively stable.
Acetone is often blended with alcohol to accelerate combustion flame speed, and also to reduce its tendency to pre-ignite when lean mixtures are used. Usually a 10% acetone/90% alcohol blend is all that is required for this purpose, although much higher percentages of acetone may be blended if desired.
For Further Technical Information (TABLES)

RingWinger

Hello Aero Nut,


You ask me about how to make an adjustable glow plug holder / contra-piston adapter for insertion into a standard sparkplug hole in a personnel email.

I spent a about 10 minutes on the lathe and make a simple mandrel to hold a glow plug and then turned down the outside of the glow plug. The glow plug hole is a .250 x 32 threads per inch. I turned the plug down to .260 of an inch. If I went further it would have cut too deep into the plug and head of the glow plug will pop off.

Okay you can see in the photos the plug and you ask now what.

The rest of the device (Not shown since I have not made it yet) is just an old spark plug with the electrode remove and a 3/8 fine thread cut into the jacket with a tap.

Next a 3/8 fine threaded bolt in mounted into the lathe. A #3 drill is run down the center and tapped for ¼ x32 threads. Next it is counter drill from the other end with a #2 drill almost to the bottom leaving just the amount of threads to hold the glow plug (about 0.250). A wire is attached to the center electrode and the threads on the glow plug are coated with Stud Mounting LockTite.

The glow plug is inserted down into the 3/8 bolts and turned into the hole with the extended electrical wire.

This 3/8 bolt then is inserted into the old sparkplug. Now you can run the engine and adjust the timing while screwing the 3/8 bolt into or out of the cylinder. Of course you need to attach a leaver to the bolt, such a cross pin to be able to turn the bolt.

RingWinger

Gentlemen,

Here is a glow plug adapter with a standard idle bar Fox glow plug installed. I made it out of an old spark plug and a fine thread 3/8 bolt. In this case you can remove and install a replacement glow plug. Also note the little glow plug that I turned on the lathe. This is here to give scale to both parts.

Please don't confuse this adapter for the discription in my pervious post. I just wanted to show the basic idea and I though these shots maybe of some help to others.

With respect to the adjustable glow plug holder / contra-piston device; if a glow plug is installed with LockTite as I mention in the pervious post it will be most difficult to remove, but it is easy to just machine a new bolt/holder.

I hope these photos are helpful.

Poppy

aero nut

Great work Poppy pretty soon will be nailing this project up to the point where we can probably have just about the same performance as with the ignition set up but without all that weight keep the good work; I once tried the acetone/ gasoline/ methanol combo without any good results but just like I mentioned you before probably because my methanol was contaminated it didn't work well. I am going to give it a try once more and see the results, please let me know when you do your actual testing of your fuel combination I would sure like to hear your results.
Bill Pomplun

RingWinger

Bill,

I hope to test run both the stove fuel/methanol/ether and stove fuel/methanol/acetone mixture sometime this week using the non-adjustable glow plug adapter and a Fox standard idle bar glow plug.

I have a question for you.

Were you able to get standard auto gasoline to mix with methanol? What I mean a mixture of 80% standard gasoline and 20% methanol without any other additives? Did this hold a solution over time?

It would be very helpful to myself and others if you could summarize your entire test results and post them here once again. I think this date is very important and may give some clues as to which mixture may work the best.

If possible could you also indicate the type of glow plug(s) used.

Of course I’m currently interest in Methanol since it is available to me, but all of your data would be helpful.

Thanks,

Poppy