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the great ether debate

Old 08-07-2011, 11:12 AM
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Default the great ether debate

Ok all after over a 1000 posts on diesel fuel and the etherless thing maybe time to wind down and get back to the Basics. Keropower did state that when he puts the RC carb back on his OS he expects it to quit on reducing throttle
The basic fact is every maker of diesel engines provides a fuel formula that contains ether, My first was a drone 62 years ago (hmm I am getting up there in years) it was 70% ether 30% oil, since then of course Kero comes along to be added in
but ether is about 30% more or less in most formulas
In this country Davis is the largest provider the half A for antique and engines and up thru .10 and the ABC formula for those above
and does provide the ether based formula for his conversions outside the USA
In the UK model techniques has several
Bottom line is with the ether based formulas, the engines, run properly, transistion well, and of course run much cooler than glow
as said before benchs do not fly just my thoughts martin

Old 08-07-2011, 12:20 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Gotta agree with Martin. You can of course get a model diesel to run without ether (I've done it), but ony at the cost of running far higher compression ratios with consequent excess heat and stress being imposed on the engine.Moreover, they never run as well without ether as they do with it - nothing else has ether's incredibly wide explosive limits coupled with low spontaneous ignition temperature (SIT). So what's the point? As long as ether remains available, use it! If it ever disappears, then and ony then start messing about with ether-less fuels.
Old 08-07-2011, 12:26 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Yes, fuel without ether has been tried before and consensus was that engines run better (lower compression, wider tuning) with ether in the fuel. I have not seen anything new from "Keropower", running a fixed venturi doesn't change anything, that's after all how engines were run in the old days. There is no need to reinvent the wheel just because someone was not around for the first development...
Old 08-07-2011, 12:58 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Diesel Die hard and Mr Cox THX for your comeback I have done too no ether it but never posted
results poor, the excess compression required, no transistion on r/c carb either
very hard on the engine crank pin and rod running even
with the ether mix ,running overcompressed every instruction on running them if sounds hard reduce compression at once we know we get more power
on diesel and better fuel economy than glow really not point in repeating that
however martin
Old 08-07-2011, 02:16 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate



Perhaps Motorboy was correct. The Kerosene and oil only thread really belongs in the glow engine forum. In the end it really had nothing to do with model diesel engines. More related to understanding how the new Enya gasoline glow plug engine works.

Old 08-07-2011, 03:24 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

I was running one of my old Hope 19 glow engines recently after testing a few diesels, and I forgot to change fuels!! The Hope started and ran just fine, but it didn't take long for me to notice that it smelled like a diesel! I soon figured out what I'd done (pretty easy, 'coz I had the diesel fuel squeeze bulb in my hand and the fuel was the wrong color!), but the thing was running so well that I decided just to let it run the tank out. It did so with no fuss at all! Upon refilling with glow fuel, it started right up again and ran as if it had never seen any erher or kerosene in its life!

I found an article in an old "Aeromodeller" magazine (England) from the 1960's in which the writer had tried an Enya 19 on diesel fuel and found that it ran just fine. So these experiences are by no means unique. I suspect that there's far more life left in glow and spark ignition fuel research than there is for diesels. As Mr. Cox said, the pioneers tried everything and found that while diesels would run without ether, ether worked by far the best. That hasn't changed. As long as ether remains available, let's be happy and just use it in our diesels!
Old 08-07-2011, 04:07 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Diesel Die hard. Not surprised a glow engine with very high compression
will go right off on diesel fuel all that counts is the compression being high enough of course its fixed and a prop would have to be matched
for decent running, a few of us have some glow engines that will do this have Hobbsy has a saito 80 that does compression higher than normal martin
Old 08-07-2011, 05:30 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Ether is to improve starting properties in the model diesel engine and can have lowest ether percentage at 20% and up to 35% depending on engine who has good start willingness by hand starting. Too much ether can give "knocking" and is a bad fuel due low caloric value. The IPN (dope) is to make smooth running and remove "knocking".

See the pic...

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Old 08-07-2011, 09:05 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate



Irealize that a major goal of this forum is to promote the model diesel engine and basically show that it is just as reliable and easy to use (if not easier) as glow or gas. The model diesel engine is not just a novelty. This is good. I am all for keeping diesel alive (not that it is dying or anything).

I also realize that do-it-yourself fuel threads that talk about preheating, ignition improvers, kerosene, ether, no ether, naptha,gasoline, dopes, mineral spirits,paint thinneretc. can turn people away from diesels. They probably come to this forum and think what the heck are these people doing messing around with all this stuff? Then again, the sheer fact that these diesels don't run on diesel is enough to turn people away.

However a little experimentationis good. I mean just look at howwell gas/glow fuelhas worked out for people in the Engine Conversion forum.

"benchs do not fly"
True, but even if it's running on Davis Diesel Developmentfuel or paint thinner most model diesel engine videos you see in the Everything Diesel forum is running on the bench. Not many videos show them in a plane boring holes in the sky like they should be. This could give new diesel users the wrong impression.

Old 08-07-2011, 09:10 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Um, define 'running fine' when using diesel fuel in any unmodified glow engine?

The compression ratio should be no more than 12:1 in any FAI fuel (80% methanol and 20% castor) engine and even then that is very high for a two stroke glow and model diesels demand around 18:1 to run what I would call 'fine.'

The venturi size is usually too big for optimum running also, port sizes generally follow too as do piston/liner seals, so I don't see any gold mine in getting a hard to start, low compression glow engine staggering along at well below its optimum power at all!

If someone could convince me that any standard glow engine ran well on diesel fuel then I would highly question how well it ran in the first place as a glow.

I think that duel fuel is a myth when looking for anything useful in model engines.
Old 08-08-2011, 03:49 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

with some engines there is no chance ever of running fuel with no ether like the AE .1cc and Clan .24cc
Old 08-08-2011, 04:21 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate


ORIGINAL: nitroairplane

with some engines there is no chance ever of running fuel with no ether like the AE .1cc and Clan .24cc
You're pretty lucky if you can get either of those diesels to run even with plenty of ether in the fuel.

Old 08-08-2011, 05:03 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

This Saito .80 is an old high compression model with 15.6 to 1 compression ratio. I can only assume that it is not corrected for valve timing. It runs perfect on Davis ABC mix and a Graupner 14x7. It turns the 14x7 at 8,700, has smooth midrange and a great idle. Comparing it to glow, it turns a Scimitar 13x6 at 9,700 on 10% WildCat with 18% lube. Here are the tach. shots, 8,792 at full blatt and 1,541 at idle.
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Old 08-08-2011, 05:10 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate


ORIGINAL: locktite401


ORIGINAL: nitroairplane

with some engines there is no chance ever of running fuel with no ether like the AE .1cc and Clan .24cc
You're pretty lucky if you can get either of those diesels to run even with plenty of ether in the fuel.

This is due too small capacity in the tiny model engine to produce enough heat of compression..
Old 08-08-2011, 08:39 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

In response to Diesel Fan, I am not by any means advocating any form of "universal fuel" for all types of model engines - I didn't intentionally try diesel fuel in that glow engine! I simply reported on the outcome of a plain and simple error on my part (using the wrong fuel!) and noted that others seem to have had similar experiences in the past.By "running just fine" I mean running more or less as if it were running on standard glow fuel - I'm very familiarwith that particular engine, and Ididn't notice any unusual starting or running characteristics. In fact, I on;y realized my error when i got a whiff of the exhaust!In any case, how well does a 1949 sandcast Hope 19 run at the best of times??

The other thing to remember is that the low compression of a glow engine is compensated for by the presence of the plug, which clearly must continue to perform its function even when the thing is incorrectly supplied with diesel fuel. If it didn;t do so, there's no way that the engine would keep running on diesel fuel - there's nowhere near enough compression there to ignite the fuel without help. I started the Hope with the plug lit because I hadn't realized my fuelling error at that point and was treating it as iwould any other glow engine.It started andran just as it had done on previous occasions, and the fuelling error was only revealed by the exhaust aroma.

Make of this what you will, guys!! Meanwhile, I'll stick to diesel fuel for diesels and glow fuel for glows!!
Old 08-08-2011, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

In the case of the Saito .80 bove, there is no coil in the plug, I drilled it out to make sure I wasn't wrong about it running so well.
Old 08-08-2011, 09:03 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

In response to Locktite,  both of those engines will run very well if you get a good one, but doing so is a bit hit and miss.  The slightest leak in the crankcase, and you're doomed!  Hold them to your ear and turn them over slowly, and if you don't hear a bit of a "pop" as the transfer opens, there's a problem.  In fact, a number of the Clan 0.24 cc engines had a manufacturing error - the transfer system was incorrectly machined in such a way that the transfer port would not open at all!  If you have one of those, you're out of luck! 

Another essential is a good compression seal.  As Motorboy says, getting enough heat into the cylinder to achieve a start becomes increasingly  diffiicult with decreasing size. The tiny engines can tolerate far less wear than larger models - a very small amount of piston wear or surface scoring can lose you all of your compression. Keep 'em clean!! I have a Bambi which I've now had to rebore twice.  It still runs fine, but it does show how little wear it takes to render these little engines unuseable.

Another thing that can prevent a tiny engine from running is the presence of castor gum in the induction or bypass systems.  This is not an  uncommon thing with engines that have been run but were not properly cleaned up after being run. Larger engines can usually tolerate a bit of this, but not the really tiny ones. The only fix with a gummed-up miniature is complete dismantling and a thorough clean-up.

My examples of  both engines run beautifully.  It's a bit of a lottery ...................

Old 08-08-2011, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

yep it took me about 21 hours of trying to start the engine to get it to run and the best run ive ever got was 35 seconds.
Old 08-08-2011, 06:50 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Anyway there is no way one fuel will work in all cases. A large engine would likely run just fine without ether in the fuel. But a little engine would need large amounts to run.
Engines in between have varying levels of need for ether.

I think having some way to pre-heat the etherless fuel would help a lot in how the engine runs. it is similar to how the large ocean going ships use bunker oil to run their engines. Hot fuel is closer to its self ignition temperature point and needs less pressure to get it to fire off besides being heated up thins it out more and it also tends to vaporize a lot easier too. Heating up the engine as well is good too.

Old 08-08-2011, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

I don't know why anyone would even call this a "debate". No one's advocating using etherless fuel for regular sport flying, or claims it's better than ether-containing fuel. Just pointing out that engines CAN be made to run on etherless fuel doesn't amount to debate, and in any case it's pretty obvious it can be done, so there's no actual thing to debate anyhow. There are potential uses for such engines which aren't necessarily those RC hobbyists would be interested in.

Iskandar

Old 08-08-2011, 10:44 PM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

It has been sold the etherless fuel and the engine was easy to start up without ether.
Those who knew etherless fuel recipe and sold into the market went into the grave without leaving a recipe on paper or to the heirs. [] See the pic..

There is no wrong to run the model diesel fuel etherless. It is up to each user to choose either the fuel containing ether or without ether. Not all countries in the world have users access to the ether because of strict laws about the abuse of the ether or not available to buyers. We give them a hope that there is the etherless fuel they can use in their model diesel engines.

Davis Diesel Fuel is not sold to other countries outside the U.S., same with the Model Technics diesel fuel is not always available in all countries in Europe. So we have to make own fuel and have access to the ether, in some countries in Europe are not all lucky to get ether because of the law.

I have spent time chasing after etherless fuel in old books in the internet and in book markets. And I found only three books containing the recipe for etherless fuel. The books were put away in the library's stock or filed as old books in the archive that scanned books that not everyone has access to the public library's shelves or sold on the used market.
That's because ether can disappear from the market due to those who produce drugs destroyed so much for us, both you and me who want to fly model airplanes with model diesel engine.


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Old 08-09-2011, 03:02 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate


ORIGINAL: iskandar taib

I don't know why anyone would even call this a "debate". No one's advocating using etherless fuel for regular sport flying, or claims it's better than ether-containing fuel. Just pointing out that engines CAN be made to run on etherless fuel doesn't amount to debate, and in any case it's pretty obvious it can be done, so there's no actual thing to debate anyhow. There are potential uses for such engines which aren't necessarily those RC hobbyists would be interested in.

Iskandar

Well I suppose it depends on your definition of what a debate really is and I am going to lean on "to consider something, deliberate or to engage in a formal discussion."

So I don't know why anyone wouldn't call most threads debates.

I think that advocacy of etherless fuel is not needed here, its more about revisiting why its not popular in comparison but when backed into a corner where ether is just plain inavailable, threads like this start to prove there value.

Old 08-09-2011, 04:43 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

There have been some compression ignition engines manufactured for motorcycles and mopeds in the past.
the Lohmann moped with its 18cc diesel engine comes to mind.
http://cyclemaster.wordpress.com/pag...nn-hilfsmotor/
What seemed to work well was using 1 part pump diesel, 2 parts gasoline, and 1 part naphtha for the fuel (along with a 20:1 oil ratio for lubrication).
But then this is a 18cc engine, so its larger displacement would allow it to run without ether in the fuel.
I assume on a cold day, you would have to use starter fluid though.

Old 08-09-2011, 04:50 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

Greg has several videos of larger engines running with no ether but they are fourstrokes.
Old 08-09-2011, 07:21 AM
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Default RE: the great ether debate

I've not posted anything because the character of this forum has gone toward looking down on experimentation. It seems easy enough to disregard a topic when it doesn't interest you. The other concern is that this forum is commercially motivated more than it is for sharing information and bringing to light new (or old) technology that would make diesel fuel less expensive and easier to get.

I get questions via email about model diesel all the time asking about the fuel (is it pump diesel). I always answer that the fuel is a blend of ether, kerosene, and lubricant, ie., model diesel fuel. I never hear back from these people requesting further information.

Be assured that my work on engines and fuels is ongoing.

Greg

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