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mk17 starting problems

Old 11-07-2005, 12:51 AM
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anish
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Default mk17 starting problems

hi! ive got this old russian mk-17 diesel..we had brought it long back in the 80's its been lyin since...it was jammed..got it cleaned out..in our country ether is a banned substance (but still my hands on it!!) i tried to get it started ..just wont start ...for fuel according to the original manuals - 1:1:1 ether, kerosene, castor oil ..ive tried using more ether..still no though i can smell that peculiar exhaust...guys is it normal for it to spit fuel out of the air inlet? when i choke it fuel sometimes leaks out of the front shaft bearing!? is it normal ? ..well compression is there ..bangs,pops do come ...it almost started once - a series of pops.but couldnt repeat that again....could i have somebody whose worked with this engine enligten me ?

thanx..Anish, Nepal
Old 11-07-2005, 01:40 AM
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Jim Thomerson
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

I've not run an mk 17, but I hear they are pretty good engines. It sounds like you are flooding it. Dry out the crankcase and squirt some fuel in the exhaust port with the piston up, covering the exhaust port, and start flipping. Don't put any fuel anywhere else until you get the compression set so it will run a second or two off the head prime. Then attach the fuel line and open the needle valve a half turn. Choke it only until fuel gets to the carburetor, not inside the engine. Then head prime and fire it up. Repeat this, opening the needle a little at a time, until it keeps running. A flooded diesel is almost impossible to start.

Fuel coming out the front end behind the prop happens in some of my diesels. Just a matter of how good the seal is on the crankshaft.
Old 11-07-2005, 02:25 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

anish,
Jim means to prime against the piston with the port closed. Diesels realy do only need a wiff of fuel. Also dont feel bad about flooding it, it seems to be the first mistake all new users make- myself included, they just wont run wet.
Old 11-07-2005, 02:44 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

If the engine are wet of fuel and the compression feel hard to turn, back off compression screw 1/2-1 turn and close the main needle, then 2-3 turn out. Start the engine until it will fire. If the engine are running a short time and the compression feel reduced (cause the flooded fuel are burned away), turn compression screw 1/4-1/2 and start again with some drops fuel in exhaust port..

When the engine are running in slow rpm, adjust the compression screw until the engine are in max speed and lean out main needle until the engine begins drop speed, then richen 1/2-3/4 turn back.

Jens Eirik
Old 11-07-2005, 07:11 AM
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gary-meyers
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Proportions of fuel mix is correct if you have good components. A little amyl nitrate might help.
if you have poor quality ether double up on the ether and up the oil content. Most consumer availabe ether is 25% ether and 75% fillers. A more pure form of ether (over 75% pure) works best. Here we have John Deere starting fluid which is reportedly 78% pure.
Old 11-07-2005, 09:32 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Anish,

First, I assume you are breaking it in on a bench, not in an airplane. Clean it out as Jim says. Flooding it should have flushed out the engine. Leaking out the front bearing is referred to as being "wet nosed." This implies a less than perfect fit between the crankcase and the crankshaft. If the leak is small, it will just keep the front ball bearing clean and well lubed. If it is excessive, you may lose some of the crankcase suction, which can decrease fuel draw. Only running will tell. My Mk-17's came with two intake inserts. I would recommend the smaller one. I hope the pics work.
After being able to run off a prime, you can connect your tank. Start with the tank top level with the intake. This will prevent fuel from gravity flooding the engine. Close the needle and, while holding your finger over the intake, turn the prop over slowly and look for fuel filling the fuel tubing. Of course you need a translucent tubing, not neoprene. Assuming no flow, open the needle 1/2 turn and try again. Continue opening needle 1/2 turn each try until fuel flows into the tubing. Stop here - do not flood.
At this point you can start it with a prime and it should run off the tank. You may have to increase compression once it starts firing. Sometimes prime starting will provide a false compression setting.
Adjust needle until it is running steady, then adjust compression for smooth running. I find that lowering compression until it runs rough, then increasing until it runs smoothly helps prevent over compression. You will probably have to adjust needle valve and compression several times until it gets to peak. Once you have it running at peak, pull off the fuel tubing to shut it down and let it cool for five or 10 minutes (until the head is just warm to the touch). When it is cool, start it again and run it for about a minute at peak, then pull the tubing off to stop it and let it cool. This is called heat-cycling the piston and cylinder. Do this for six times, then you can fly it.
I hope this helps a little. My Mk-17's run well.

George
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Old 11-07-2005, 09:52 PM
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RRyan
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

George, You beat me to the venturis. Your discription of starting and tuning are about perfect. My MK-17 is a good runner, but wants that little venturi. Oddly they came with one or the other venturi fitted at random, I've sen then NIB both ways and no way more then the other. Mine had the large one in it and it barked at me and bit me until I changed it.
Old 11-08-2005, 02:08 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

I has the plan of MK-17 and there are 2 difference sizes of venturi. The smaller venturi are at 4 mm and the larger venturi are at 5 mm.

Jens Eirik
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Old 11-08-2005, 02:29 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Jens,
My 2 Mk17's came with 3.5mm and 5mm venturies.
Stewart
Old 11-08-2005, 02:53 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems


ORIGINAL: SGC

Jens,
My 2 Mk17's came with 3.5mm and 5mm venturies.
Stewart
Measured with vernier caliber or drill/rod at 3.5 mm in the smaller venturi?

Jens Eirik
Old 11-08-2005, 04:05 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Jens,
I used a neat fitting drill shaft then confirmed the size or the drill with verniers.
Stewart
Old 11-08-2005, 11:33 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

I have a third Mk-17 that is installed in a CL Flying Clown. It currently has the small venturi installed, just because the plane is small and I did not need the extra power.
Perhaps the larger venturi would be good if you were using a small prop and needed higher power at higher RPM. Perhaps the small venturi would be needed if using a larger prop where the lower RPM would not produce less velocity in the venturi. These are only speculations, that's why I started with "perhaps."
I had no trouble bench running them with either venturi, but only the one is in a plane. Fortunately, so far none of mine are wet nosed.
I remember reading in a review that Ed Carlson included in his catalog, that the BB's are instrument grade. Not necessary, but a nice touch.

George
Old 11-09-2005, 06:00 AM
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anish
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

thanx a lot guys...i'll go through this material so many things i didnt know...lets see but this motor has to work its in excellent conditions..i'll try to digest all this and hopefully get this thing started.

anish
Old 11-28-2005, 02:10 AM
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anish
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

I give up.....wont budge are there any videos or something for starting a mk17 ? ...that will be my last hope...thanks, anish
Old 11-30-2005, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Anish,

With the piston at top dead center (TDC), screw the contra down until it touches the piston. Now back off one full turn. This should get you in the ballpark for compression setting.

DO NOT hook up the tank.

If possible, get some commercial fuel. If not possible, up the ether content to about 40%. A commercial fuel will eliminate one possible starting problem.

Use an intake prime by adding a couple of drops to the rear intake. Do not squirt a bunch in, just two drops.

Now flick to start a few times. If the engine pops before hitting TDC (kicks back) lower the compression 1/8 turn and try again. BTW, you might want to use a glove to protect your fingers until you find the correct setting.

If the engine does not fire, increase compression and try flicking again.

When the engine fires correctly, prime it and try again. When the engine fires easily with a prime, hook up the tank with the top of the tank below the venturi level. Open the needle until the fuel just starts to flow. Now start it with a prime as before.

I did not see prop mentioned. Use a larger than normal prop (~ 9x4) at first to get the flywheel action. After you have it running well, you can switch to a smaller prop.

Don't give up.

George

Old 07-15-2013, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

An MK-17 has been lent to me to look at. It is in great shape. It's only problem is that starting and setting a clean run is difficult. The intake cross section is too large. I have to 'finger choke' it to start.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_DAU-cMQ5s

I wish to remove the "big bore" red anodised venturi insert, and put in the alternative "narrow bore" beige anodised insert.

WIth the NVA removed, the red insert will not budge. I am thinking of using heat and if that fails solvents.

Has anyone changed the venturi insert? If so, how is this most easily accomplished?
Old 07-15-2013, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Freeze it, I would imagine that the alloy used in the insert would contract more the casting would.

If that fails then lick the casting with a heat gun whilst the insert is still cool.

Old 07-15-2013, 11:13 PM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Much obliged, I'll try that.
Old 07-16-2013, 01:10 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

I thought every modeller worth his salt would grab the venturi with a big pair of multigrips!


Really tho' Can you access the venturi from the other side of the backplate, and try tapping it out?

Greg
Old 07-16-2013, 01:51 AM
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Bill Adair
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Haven't run mine yet, but the cutaway drawing indicates that the venturi is held in place by the needle valve assembly. Perhaps a little heat will help relax the fit?

If it were mine, I'd simply plug some of the venturi area with a hardwood insert, or reduce the bore diameter with a sleeve, and try it that way.

The one my friend has was easy to start initially here at sea level (even with the big venturi), but the contra gave us fits. We finally had to drive it out with a dowel, and polish it a bit.

After that we found the threaded head insert had come loose, and would turn with the contra screw. If we can't get a new head from the dealer (Ed Carlson), we may have to peen it in place.

Bill
Old 07-16-2013, 11:27 AM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Bill peening may distort the head. Clean to threaded insert well and the hole it goes in will with solvent, acetone, lacqure thinner etc coat threads well with J and B weld, clean off excess
from all surfaces put some
grease in the tapped hole for the adjustment screw to play it safe let sit 24 hrs martin
Old 07-16-2013, 02:00 PM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems


ORIGINAL: greggles47

I thought every modeller worth his salt would grab the venturi with a big pair of multigrips!


Really tho' Can you access the venturi from the other side of the backplate, and try tapping it out?

Greg
Good idea Greg (the driving it out bit bit - not the pliers bit) but if you view the pics from post 7 it sorta tells me that getting any purchase on the inside of the venturi may be difficult since it seems to be be faired in to assist air flow.
Still a tight fitting drift may be the best option.

Just wonder of the spraybar entry has left a protruding 'lip' in the casting that is jagging the venturi and holding it tight?

Old 07-16-2013, 02:15 PM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

If your fuels good as you say it is at a 1/3 of each and it has compression it has to go.
Put a big propeller on it like a 9 X 4 or 6 for good flywheel effect, bolt the motor down tight to a solid bench, prime as suggested into the exhaust, have the needle opened 2 or 3 turns, turn it over slowly twice then hit it hard and it really must run. Increase compression and adjust needle as required.
You might need to draw the fuel from the tank to the engine by holding your finger over the carb. and turning the engine over slowly, but don't flood it like it sounds you may have earlier on. Good luck.
Old 07-16-2013, 03:10 PM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Multi Grips [X(]

I froze the back plate, but the insert still won't budge.

The NVA screws into a boss on the top of the intake. the NVA jet enters the venturi through a hole in the insert, which secures what is otherwise an interference fit.

Using compression (such as soft jaw pliers) on the end buttress of the insert will probably result in the insert being forced out-of-round, compounding the problem.

The intake disc valve rotor is pinned to the back plate. Fortunately the pin is easily removable courtesy of a small pin locking screw which can be loosened.

I will remove the disc valve rotor and try to drive the venturi insert out using a suitably sized dowel, after applying a little heat to the exterior of the intake tube. I will need to firmly support the back plate for this procedure. A peice of hard wood with a drilled hole deep enough to allow for insert to back out should be suitable.

**

Small props or large, this engine is not happy on the large venturi insert. It "wanders" RPM's and will not hold a steady run at maximum setting. I'd wager it would not run steadily for stunt work.

I have made an intermediate sized venturi insert which I am keen to try.
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Old 07-16-2013, 04:31 PM
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Default RE: mk17 starting problems

Fiery the attached scan from a 1995 MEW article may help you devise a suitable venturi puller (the article was about reworking the early model Veco 19-which had a similar tight fitting venturi insert)-the dimensions for the MK-17 will be slightly different-but the principle is the same. In your position I'd go for heating rather than cooling-as heat will soften any oil residue that may be acting as a seal between the two surfaces........

ChrisM
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