RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I have been flying my .061 PAW on my "Baker Black Brew". I just flew it today. You can look up my mix in the fuel thread. It has way lower ether and about 20% 15-40 oil and diesel.

Treven Baker.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Ugo,

I'm getting ready to try some charcoal lighter fluid in place of regular kerosene in my fuel. I looked over several MSDS and there seems to be a lot of variation in what chemicals are used. Is there any particular makeup that would be more suitable? According to the Aussie newsletter posted in this thread somewhere, some chemistries are much better suited than others. It's more expensive than kerosene, so I hope there is a benefit to the lighter fluid.

This is what I have to try this weekend if there is time.

http://msds.walmartstores.com/view_i...&doc_version=1

Looking back, I would not recommend anyone start their BBQ with crude oil. There certainly are components that would not have enough time or heat to evaporate and burn.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg, Do you have any reason to believe that lighter fluid has any better cetane rating or volitility than kerosene? From the charts I have seen kerosene and diesel have the best commonly and cheaply availible cetane ratings.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg,
happy to have you on bord! Also I found a mess of charcoal starters. Your msds is rather short, but they say isoparaffins (isoalkanes), rather low C number. It seems to be about 2 C less than "light" kerosene. This means (should mean) a significantly higher evaporation rate, that is worth trying. Furthermore, this has no aromatics, the worse diesel fuel, so this should compensate the somewhat lower cetane of lower C components.
I don't rely solely on cetane number, since from that point of view only, margarine should be the best fuel!
I suggest to increase , say by one third ,the cetane booster you usually use. I have found an interesting vast official source of petroleum distillates, with respective cas numbers. It comes from European Community,but my copy is in italian, so I am searching an english version for here.
Ugo.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Treven, the idea came from the evaporation and lubrication discussion we had. I'm not sre if it was this thread or not. The idea is the charcoal lighter has a narrow boiling range that is lower than that of kerosene. This might lead to more of the fuel component evaporating, for better lubrication and reduced fuel consumption.

I think that cetane rating isn't everything. We can change it as we need with cetane booster. I added 2-3 times what I normally use by mistake once and it certainly advanced ignition timing to the point I couldn't use the mix.

Some of the other MSDS I looked at said the lighter fluid was Stoddard solvent. There are only a few available here. I'll have to look around at stores to see what else I can get.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg,
Stoddard solvent should be another thing. Some lighters have some stoddard, but the CAS. it is different, so it is not a synonimus, but a different thing. The important difference is that stoddard contains an appreciable percentage of aromatics, not fit for diesel, and the lighter should smell somewhat When the lighter is good it should be absolutely clear and with no odour. It should resemble a very fluid oil mist. Really difficult to standardize. Maybe a branded product should give repeatable results. Ronsonol lighter fluid could fit
http://pages.slc.edu/~aschultz/chemi...ER%20FLUID.PDF .
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

These are the other two I recently looked at.

http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/27928_1.pdf
http://msds.walmartstores.com/cache/23350_1.pdf

Both clearly contain Stoddard solvent, the first is 100%.

Ronsonol might be good chemically, but at 51USD per gallon we might as well buy premixed diesel fuel.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg, I didn't imagine that you planned to try with a CAT!
What I was suggesting is to try with a 3$ can, in order to compare sharable results with others, If you use ronsonol as a reference you can compare it with cheaper brands that cost one fourth....and use them
http://outdoor-living.hardwarestore....id-279752.aspx
Your first lighter quoted is (by chevron) also borne solvent
http://www.cpchem.com/enu/ORFOM_SX_18.asp but at least seems to have a rather definite formula, it could be simply a rebranded chevron product. By cas it seems not a stoddard solvent, since this last is cas 8052 41 3

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg, take a look at this! http://www.cpchem.com/enu/E_III_AVIATION_GRADE.asp
It seems we are near to the result. This aviation grade fire training fuel has the right composition for making standard fire tests, and its lighter part is your bbc lighter!
Now I made my due diligence, so you should make yours by testing the fuel, maybe you can add another sample to our fuel thread!
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

It doesn't look like I'll have enough time this weekend. But I'll try.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I did run some charcoal lighter without ether today.

Two issues.

A. Castor oil doesn't blend with Walmart brand charcoal lighter that I have. Motor oil should be fine, and synthetic should mix, if you are willing to go that route. I'll try both when I get a chance.

B. It didn't run well. The Magnum .52 four stroke I converted was maxed out in compression. This engine is a bit limited in it's compression adjustment range. My FS-48 is still in pieces after I disassembled it for inspection. I started with about 2.5% Amsoil ACB. I got a couple bursts and that was it. I took out my heat gun and it still wouldn't go. I added ~2% more and could get it to start hot. It ran but was missing and RPM peaked out at half throttle. I think that with a suitable compression ratio things will be better.

Notes.

The exhuast felt very dry even though it was missing. I had white smoke and I think it was the unburnt fuel from the missed cycles. Running was inconsistent because I had to shake the tank occasionally to make sure the castor wasn't settling. I think with a small ether amount this might make a nice fuel. It smells a bit different, but some of that was the cetane booster.

Ugo the MSDS you posted had a substantially different autoignition temp. Much higher than what is listed in charcoal lighter.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg
I don't find autoignition temperature neither in your first msds (I suppose you are using) nor in my last one, (aviation test fuel) but both flash points are almost identical.When you find a consistently higher autoignition temperature you are in presence of one or both these components -aromatics or very low C as exhane_
As for your test it appears interesting the "dry" output. This should mean a good evaporation and corresponingly low diluition of lube.
Also I think a good idea adding some ether for mixing components, maybe also a bit of isopropylic alcool (cheap grade?) could help.
I am not advocating a "straight" mix made only from lighter. A mix is a compromise, so some Kerosene could help balancing. I am testing by gradually substituting kero in two stroke mix.
An idea, if one finds the way to pass the exhaust gases in water, liquids will collect on the top, and a better analysis could be easily made
ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg,
seen what you say!. It is clearly a mistake (also msds don't worth absolute faith) . Autoignition temperature is 236°C,but they wrongly wrote 336 than converted in 638,8°F . The conversion is clear following the °C statement since none would state an autoignition temperature of an hydrocarbon mixture using four cyphers!, and the basic °C statement is absolutely out of physics since no isoalkane C9 or C11 goes so high in temperature, matter of aromatcs only.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg, the lighter did burn you?
Another useful hint. You use a CAS 68551-16-1, so you have a blend C9-C11, if you try with CAS 68551-17-1 you will use the a similar blend, but with an increase of one unity and half in C, that is C10-C13, always isoparaffins. You rise in boiling temperature, the autoignition is about the same 230-240°C, the flash rises from 40 to 60°C. This is a team race kero, that you can buy as charcoal lighter (high flash type), making your due diligence. Of course mixing the two you can modulate your carbon spectrum....so.....
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I'm fine, just no time for running engines. I had one hour this weekend before I posted the results. I probably won't have much time for another two weeks. Easter, Toledo show, taxes, etc.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Toledo was a success. Brought back a Norvel .074, PAW .06, PAW 55, and MVVS 1.5. Also an O.S. FS-40S-C to accompany the FS-26S-C. A few quarts of Klotz Benol for fuel. And I spoke with Klotz about the R50 synthetic. They told me it is good for 400-425F minimum before it begins breaking down and agreed the wristpin is going to be the critical component. They told me my old Sig castor oil didn't blend well because it likely oxidized.

More testing is planned but I have other things that are keeping me busy. I spoke with a few others who were interested in etherless fuels, so it is certainly worth pursuing.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg,
I think the matter is that mineral and syntetics have a lesser high temperature viscosity and an intrinsically lower boundary lubrification, so they must recur to additives for reaching an adequate value, but it is a rather doubtful way
As for the sig castor, if it is an old one the matter could be, did it contact air? if not it may simply have reached an higher polymerization. I had this problem with some cans of historical castrol ten years old. If you leave it a month mixed with kerosene without any air and periodically shacking a little,it will mix.
I remain of the opinion that some ether helps all the matter, from mixing to starting and running and lasting. The percentage being lower for four strokes than two, for larger than littler, for rc than control line, , for sport than combat, for bearings than plain engines, for synthetic than castor...
Furtherly, the extraordinary high cetane number of ether helps, and it works in a different way than combustion improvers, nitrates or peroxigenated ones, being compatible with them.
The real problem seems mainly to be that modern democracies limit its legitimate use, so someone has to stick to the john deeres of the moment.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Sloper,
after 775 replies in this thread it is time for some tentative numbers.
As promised I made a fresh batch of "modified" olive oil and measured its viscosity, confronting also with the unmodified one and an unmodified sunflower.
These are the first numbers obtained after modifying up to 165°C:
SampleTemperature 23°C , Calibration Viscosity 39 centistokes.
MEASURED VISCOSITY:
OLIVE UNMODIFIED 61 centistokes,
MODIFIED OLIVE 68 centistokes,
UNMODIFIED SUNFLOWER 56 centistokes.
THE MORE I TRY THE MORE I AM GOING TO BE CONVINCED THAT THE "MODIFYING" IS A SIMPLE BLEACHING-DEGUMMING.
The observed increase in viscosity after modifying is consistent with other experiments using high temperature bleaching. This was not assessed in the original article reported in page 29, I do not know why. Maybe the author was using a really cheap oil needing for bleaching and he did not pursue increasing viscosity.
I guess the observed increase of viscosity is due to a first stage of polymerization due to the action of temperature. If this polymerization is contained, it should help lubrication of open crankase engine such as ours by increasing the rather low inherent low viscosity of common edible vegetable oils. This treatment could reduce the useful life of the oil by destroying or reducing clorophyll and tocopherol, that means it should be kept in dark bottles. No air preferable.
I am temped to modify also sunflower and test resulting viscosity.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Merugo,
Thanks for the results and comments on your testing.

The increase in viscosity of the modified olive oil I had seen for myself when I compared straight olive oil to modified olive oil. I reckoned there was a difference but had no means of testing to see what the difference actually was.

I don't know what would be involved in bleaching the olive oil but will be interested to see the results if you try it.

The original article which was published in Aeromodeller described the process to make the modified oil. The author used the cheapest vegetable cooking oil he could find. I initially did the same and after some time both testing and flying with one particular engine it ended up with the wrist pin and con rod little end bearing surface worn out !!!

Olive oil seems a much better bet and is more viscous than the cheap cooking oils. Using modified olive oil in the fuel with car engine oil (synthetic) also included has given better success. The mixed lubricant has been used in low and non-ether fuels in a number of my PAW's and there has been no problems with it.

The modified olive oil also "appears" to be more viscous than car engine oil.... it looks it.
I find that my engines start and run better when the modified olive oil is included in the fuel mix... I put this down to the higher viscosity giving better piston sealing and compression... but that's only a guess.....

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Ugo,
Whats the viscosity of Castor oil useing your test method???? , could you test Castor and motor oil useing the same method and post the results please.
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Stewart,
I am using an OLD batch of castor Castrol. It was sealed in original tins for ten years and it appears more viscous in such a way to render unreliable a viscosity measurement. It does not presently mix with more than 15%kero, neatly separating in two phases , while the original oil was largely mixible when fresh, but I found that this old castor mixes easily when left sitting with kero for more than a month, shaking gently it time by time. Its runnig behaviour is regular, and it behaves well also with some modified olive.
I do not think a measurement of viscosity in its crude state being meaningful, sice it seems to show an excessive polymerization, that goes broken sitting with kero for making the mix.
Now I am going to test a new batch of modified sunflower, since it seems more viscous than unmodified one, reaching the viscosity of unmodified olive, but being appreciabily less tha modified olive.
I remain in doubt about what happens, someone seems to suggest that some free fatty acids are freed from the process of modifying. but I did not notice the residual glycerin increase that should result from it.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Numbers.
T 21.5°C Calibration 82 centistokes
Two new batches sunflower and olive, new brands.
Quantity of water twice that of page 29, time to modify 30 min, maximum (end point) temperature 155°C
VISCOSITY:
SUNFLOWER UNMODIFIED 78 centistokes
"""""""""""""""""MODIFIED 90 centstokes

OLIVE (VIRGIN) UNMODIFIED 90 centistokes
"""""""""""""""""""MODIFIED 103 centistokes
Should free fatties increase the viscosity, it should be better to use the outmost cheap olive oil since it is solvent extracted with a high acidity ( free fatty acids) content.. Difficult to find here in stores. Virgin oil is simply cold pressed, almost no free fatties, and is about the only olive sold here in stores.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Preliminary data:
After one day spent after oils modified and unmodified, hot and cold, and many risky and tedious measurements it results that for temperatures between 10 and 100°C
MODIFIED OLIVE OIL VISCOSITY TRACKS SOMEWAY THAT OF MINERAL OIL SAE 5-40.
I guess that at higher temperatures it will behave as a higher viscosity grade, but I have to change the measuring set, hot oil is a dangerous beast indeed, but the high temperature behaviour is tempting.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

And so it should be, Ugo.

Olive oil was never intended for use in model engines.

with regards
David Owen

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

But how does that compare to virgin oil? And just to nitpick you won't find a mineral based 5W-40. Those will all be synthetic.