Ihave been intending to update the TIMELINEfound in several locations(pages 19 #456 and30 #736),of this thread. This is an attempt to organize the events of Ed's career in R/C and the designs he created. You will notice there is no mention of the year 1958. I thought that somewhere in the thread someone mentioned Ed modified an existing pattern design, and flew at the NATS, but I could find the reference in the first 30 pages of this thread last night. If somebody knows what Ed flew that year and can add it to the TIMELINE, please be my guest.

Does anyone have comments or additions?

<span style="font-size: 10pt">September 1957&mdash;Ed&rsquo;s first 1^st Place win at &ldquo;Great Lakes&rdquo; R/C Meet (Detroit)</span>

<span style="font-size: 10pt">August 1959 US Nats. (Modified Astro Hog 2nd)

June 1960 Orion plans published

July 1960 W/C Switzerland. Orion wins

November 1960 Orion kit released

August 1961 US Nats. (modified Orion/"experimental" model.First design Ed calls a &ldquo;Taurus&rdquo;, with long nose moment/short tail moment- not happy)</span></p><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">Thanksgiving 1961(Nov)&mdash;Reported date of first flight of &ldquo;Contest Prototype&rdquo; Taurus

December 6, 1961-First formal Taurus plan drawn

April 1962 Eds Africa tour. (Starts April 17 for three weeksTaurus used).

May 1962 Tauri kit released

August 1962 US Nats. Taurus wins

October 1962 Taurus plan published in RCM&amp;E

December 1962 Taurus kit released

January 1963 Taurus plan/article published in MAN

July 1963 Ed skips 1963 NATS

August 1963 Carrier flights (demonstrates Bob Dunhams' Orbit proportional with Taurus-2 flown with original thick wing)

August 21,1963 W/C Belgium. Reed Taurus 3^rd Place. (Back-up is Taurus-2 with thick wing and early proportional radio)</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">Mar-April 1964Grid Leaks discussed Kazmirski &ldquo;Pusher&rdquo; (Probably appeared at Toledo show February 1964).Grid Leaks, (Mar/Apr &rsquo;64), magazine experts disagree with Ed&rsquo;s theory for a proportional Taurus, (see below).</span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">Early 1964??Japan trip.Ed flys a version of Taurus-2 with straight T.E./tapered wing.Tests theory that shorter tail moment/more dihedral is better for proportional.Based on converting original Taurus-2 (with long tail moment), and using a Bosch airfoil wing with less dihedral, it probably isn&rsquo;t.

April 1964 Tauri plan published

August 1964 US Nats. (Taurus-2 with Taurus regular thickness Bosch airfoil, and tapered-wing withtapered L.E. and straight T.E.) </span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">May 1965.Black &amp; White Simla pictures taken with original 102&rdquo; wingspan and narrow ailerons (nephew pictures)

August 1965 </span></div><ul type="disc" style="margin-top: 0in"> <li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">August RCM back cover displays Simla</span> still 102" wingspan, but now with wider 1-3/4" ailerons tapered at the tip <li style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">US</span><span style="font-size: 10pt"> NATS. Simla flown at the NATS, (likely with 96-inch&ldquo;clipped wing&rdquo;most likely clipped 3"ateach wingtip)</span>[/list]<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt">August 1965 &ndash;Ed manages USA team at World Championships

1966-Letter to Veco about "new" Veco .61 and its pulling power.</span></div>

Ed also won the "Great Lakes" in 1958 &amp; 1961.

April 1964 Tauri plan/article published in Aeromodeller

Ray</p>

I specifically mentioned the 1957 Great Lakes because it was his FIRST win flying AMA pattern, (I picked up that trophy for $10.00 at auction). I'm sure he won multiple contests all over the midwest US (and of course the NATS, and W/C), during his career. One of the posts, (I went through 35 pages yesterday...can't remember exactly where)shows him kneeling with his Astro Hog, (I believe) with a trophy that looks a lot like it.

Duane</p>

Duane, is it possible you mean the picture posted by Ray in post #422 at page 17? Says modified Astro, was published April 1960, though.

Somewhere else was mentioned (also by Ray?) that MAN Feb 1957 specifies Smog Hog and MAN April 1958 specifies Astro Hog. Unfortunately, I don't know where it was posted (search might help), but at least the sources are known.

This is a long thread, and last night I went through 35 pages of it . I thought that someone said in 1958 he modified one pattern plane of the era, then the next year modified another, (maybe Smog Hog, then Astro Hog, I can't remember), but I can't find the reference for the year 1958. If there indeed WAS a reference to this, it must be obscure because it is not mentioned in any of the "time lines".

Tomorrow, I'm taking the Taurus-2 to a fly-in near Lexington, Kentucky. If conditions are right, we may attempt its first flight since the mid-1960s......please wish us luck.

Duane

Good luck!</p>

Any chance of a video?[8D]</p>

Yes, I'd say a pretty good chance...especially if things work out successfully

Duane

Hi Duane, A few pictures of my DART series. I don't think you ever saw my "Foam Dart". I did a lot of early work with cutting Expanded White Bead Foam. The airplane in the pictures that looks like a yellow finish is actually natural balsa wood with clear dope finish. They were Beautiful airplanes, they showed all the wood grain and quality workmanship to keep all joints and connecting pieces tightly matched together. These "Foam Darts" were built on White Bead Foam that were cut with a hot wire method. I was one of the pioneers in cutting and covering foam, This was in 1964 and i won a first place at the Toledo Conference for "New Engineering Technique". I have too many stories. SORRY ...Col. Chuck Winter

Chuck.......Personally I don't mind the stories at all. I'm interested in the early days of vintage pattern, and basically soak in all I can.

Please answer a couple questions for us.

...Did you fly in the Detroit Invitational, or were you there as a spectator/photographer. I certainly looks like you got a lot of "indise" camera views.

...How well did you know these guys? What were their personalities like. Could you dscribe Ed Kazmirski, De Bolt, Brett etc etc???

...What do you think we should do about the thrust issue on our Simla, (right and down)? I'd like to get the input of a designer. We have different opinions on what is best. We basically have a side-mounted engine 150% scaled up, (102" wingspan)Taurus with a Bosch symmetrical airfoil. Vic Husak's King Altair had 3 degrees down and 2.5* right. Should we use the same thrust figures as the Taurus which flew on a .45 to .56?? Just don't know

Please let us know when you have a DVD, (or two), of the Detroit Invitationals, or other footage of the vintage era. As I said earlier, this would be valuable to see additional footage of these pattern pioneers for historical reasons

Duane,
I don't have the Orion article in front of me but I believe Ed flew the (or another) modified Astro Hog in 1958. He mentions his travails with the Astro Hog in that article. The article also included the plans.

I'll check tonight.

Oh yes, Jeff, another case of clear sight but we don't see it. It's on casniffer's Classic Pattern pages www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/articles-plans-instructions.htm (the Astro Hog article you'll find appended to the Smog Hog article).

Maybe you can still use some Simla details. It was not possible to measure the clipped wing from the pictures, but Cees' method of building a model and comparing the pictures works. I clipped the wing tips of the virtual Simla by 3.5" and left the tip shape alone. Now it seems quite clear that the wingtips were smaller and had not that "sweep" or "rake" like the original tips. Makes it more likely that the rib frames were 3" wide, one was cut and the new tip blocks were made smaller/narrower.

Side note:Still you may design the wings so that both ways of clipping are easily possible, as described above.

Questiono you think Ed shortened the fuselage?

As to the engines used: Electric is natural for Simla due to its low wing loading. Even a quite small AXI 4120 suffices and makes for the same aerobatic performance as the .61 glow engine. There's plenty of room in the cowl, just use a rear mount. Some cooling is advisable, for instance by a NACA duct intake on top of the cowl behind the spinner and an opening on bottom where the nose landing gear is.

The landing gear in original length is right for electric power with a 12x8 prop if dihedral is 2 degrees (instead of Ed's 4 degrees). Every 2 degrees dihedral make for 0.4" landing gear height. A .91 four stroke with a 14x6 prop should have 1" longer legs and a 1.30 four-stroke 2" longer legs for 1" ground clearance.

It's no problem to change the landing gear legs when changing engines, but the longer legs (at least the 2" longer) should be different if you're flying from grass. The same wire diameter is good for the short and long legs because the longer legs are just more springy and don't give too much load on the wing and firewall, but for shock loads on grass they might be too weak. Thicker wire requires strengthened structure and makes for more weight.The drag is not noticeably higher but its center is noticeably lower, giving a drag moment to balance. Bigger wheels have substantially more drag.

A big RCV 130-CD has no problem with this drag. In fact, it makes for more drag itself. It requires the firewall to be set 1.75" back, so the engine compartment is 5.75" long (or make it 6"). The firewall should be a bit wider and taller, but the fuselage nose looks more pointed and elegant.

The RCV 91-CD four-stroke is a drop-in replacement for a .61 two-stroke, as advertised. But you have to mount the manifold and carburetor outside the fuselage. Unfortunately, it can be turned only by 180 degrees so it sticks out even farther than the cylinder head, what looks weird and nasty. A 1" longer engine compartment is enough to accommodate the carb.

<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">UStik,</div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">Do you remember your post 1237 page 50:<span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">&gt;&gt;Anyway, don't tell you knew all from the beginning&gt;&gt;</span></div></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">So again an example for that, double check the value of 34 inch of the span of the Simla stab, because all the facts have to fit.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">When Ed did enlarge his original contest Taurus ( Oldest Taurus on Earth!!) with 150 % to create his Simla, what would be the span of the stab?</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">Answer:</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">See picture 1, half span of the Wester Taurus (Copy of Ed&rsquo;s Contest Taurus) is 28,8 cm</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">28,8 cm x 2 x 1,5 (150 %) = 86,4 cm </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">86,4 / 2,54 = 34,0 inch.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">Is that right? See picture 2</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">So.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;but Cees' method of building a model and comparing the pictures works.&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">Proved, </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">To check this post and the dimensions of the stab.The stab is, uncovered and not sanded, visible on my drawing board in post 47 on 14/10/2008 of the thread: Redesign and Reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth. If you want I can enlarge that picture.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt"><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">Cees</span></div>

Cees, what is your point? We know you are always right and you know anything in advance. Better you had answered my question.


For completeness, Attachment.txt rename to SimlaWing5.pdf. Virtually no difference to SimlaWing4.pdf, no big deal, but...

The fuse seems to be shortened by exactly 5". Fuselage nose is still 12.5", canopy is 15" or 15.5", the wing chord used as scale. Aileron hinge line to stab leading edge seems to be 20" now instead of 25".

Jeff, it looks like you have to draw two different Simlas.

<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">UStik,</div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">I only did want to show you that it is possible to calculate dimensions when you have the right picture and know the methods. Result is that I did prove the Oldest Taurus on Earth really did exist but I do not see that in post 1576 of page 64.</div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">Your question?</div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt">Do not use <span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 115%">&ldquo;measurements made off small photographs, sometimes taken at undetermined angles&rdquo; see post 146 page 6 of my thread.</span></div><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 115%">Cees</span>

Hi Duane, I did not fly at the Detroit Invitationals, I was a spectator, Film maker, Club member, President of Detroit R/C 1964. I had personal contact and knew most of the top pilots on a first name basis. We (The Top R/C pilots) were allexperimentersand were glad to talk about all the newinnovationswe were working on. Jim Kirtland was still in the USAir force, so he and I had a little more camaraderie. Tom Brett was also a Detroit R/C club member and a Jewel of a man. He would bring new and very innovative THINGS he was designing to our model meetings for "Show and Tell". The subject of THRUST positioning. A quick update I graduated as an Aeronautical Engineer, worked at Republic Aviation inHydraulicand Control Engineering section, Flew fighter aircraft in USAF - T-6, T-28, T-33, F-86, T37, F-102, F-106, C-46. C-45. Many thousands of hours of flying time. 225 combat missions in Vietnam, Ejected out of an F-102 in the traffic pattern, Flamed out over Laos at night in TERRIBLE weather, I still hold the world speed record for model airplanes (Mach 1.2), I still share the control line speed record with a "Hellrazor" 149.23 MPH on two .016 control wires. I haveCONTINUOUSLYflown model airplanes for over 50 years. I'm getting off the subject of THRUST. We all can get very BOGGED down in "Torque, P-Factor, Rotational Mass, Accelerations, etc. etc". I came up with a simple set of numbers when I designed my aircraft. I must say first, I don't build Model Airplanes, I build Real Airplanes inMiniature. The numbers I start with are 2 and 2. Two degrees Right and two degrees Down. This allows you to re-trim your engine position slightly without major re-working of the Nose/Spinner area. As for DVDs, I will make a BUNCH and send them to you (NOCHARGE) and you can give them to ever you think would enjoy them. I have attached a few more photos. My 1st place award at the Toledo Conference 1966 for "NewEngineeringIdea" that was working with Foam Bead material. Both R/C airplanes are all foam balsa sheeted. The picture of the 3 guys "Me in the center" was with the "D" size Hellrazor. We were the first model pilots todevelopaluminum engine pans. SORRYFORRAMBLING. Give me a few drinks and I'll talk all night. Col. Chuck Winter.

As usual, a miss is as good as a mile. Cees, you are as helpful as a charlatan.

<div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">Charles, most interesting picture of you and the controlliners see picture 1also George Fong
Interesting, because here we are again, &ldquo;the diffuser&rdquo;.</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"></div><div style="line-height: normal">See picture 2 red circles.</div><div style="line-height: normal"></div><div style="line-height: normal"></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">I did find in Circle Talk, from controlline.org.uk</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">December 07 volume 9 issue 4 </span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">Additional info about the :</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 17pt; color: #000081">HELL RAZOR </span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #000081">by George Fong</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #000081">159.63 mph AMA Record, 1949 (Dooling 61)</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">This three-view is dedicated to Geoff Walker, who told us he</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">owned a magnesium Hell Razor pan but had no drawing.</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">After we rooted out a copy of the November 1949 Model Airplane</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">News article for him, we found out his pan was for a 29!</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">George Fong said that progressively going</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">from all wood construction to a metal pan</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">increased the weight from 26 to 32 oz but</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">upped the speed from 133 mph to the 1959</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">record. The engine a &ldquo;standard&rdquo; Dooling,</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">using the manufacturer&rsquo;s recommended fuel,</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">and prop a standard Rev-Up 9&rdquo;x 13&rdquo;. Note</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">the intentional absence of any cooling air</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; color: black">outlet, but the inlet vee was &ldquo;important&rdquo;.</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">Pictures4 and5 of my post 203 on page 9 of my thread, about the cooling of </span><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">my Orion, in, Redesign and reconstruction of the Oldest Taurus on Earth:.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_79..._9/key_/tm.htm


</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">As for the fuel systems look at the controlliners, they do know all the facts of G-forces, fuel systems and cooling.</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">Of course that inlet VEE is the most important fact to let work that diffuser for you,because when the design is wrong you burn-out your engine.</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">Thanks George for that info, but I think I must say, time to short to tell it all.</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"></div><div style="line-height: normal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: #000081">Cees</span></div><div style="line-height: normal"></div>

Someone, please give Chuck a drink...
Evan.

I think we need a "sticky" thread of Chuck's memoirs.</p>

Andy</p>

</p>

Sorry Cees, we haven't answered why your Taurus isn't on the 'time line'... It's because it has only ever existed in you imagination...but you knew that, too...
Evan.

Hi Taurus Guys. Between flying REAL airplanes (F-106s) I continued to upgrade my designs. I wanted more FLAT area on the sides of the fuselage and also position the wing closer to the center of the fuselage for better rollmaneuvers. I also had retractable landing which made a GREAT increase in smoother maneuvering. This was my "Smart Dart" 1972. Col. Chuck Winter

OK Duane, this thing's gotta be SPA legal, and BPA legal....somebody give Chuck another drink! Betimes you guys have finished Jeff's gonna have a lifetime job getting the plans drawn an' kits cut...
Evan.

Ok guys, check out this item on our favorite auction site.  It's a Pilot Taurus 300 vintage kit but I can't be sure it is related as a complete picture of the plans cannot be seen.  150347555440

<font size="2">

Ustik,</p></font>

For redesign I use several methods combined with own design exell sheet calculations and graphics, drawing programs and "solver" calculations on a HP programmable calculator etc.</p>

Planimetric methodsand goniometric calculations arethe basic behind the solutions.</p>

To give you an example of the start of one of my methods, I show you a "planimetrical" solution for your question when you give me the right picture. Remember there are only 1 % of pictures like these, direct useable!
Accuracy:Make this drawing the best you can!!!!

So, no Cheap Skate no Charlatan, but modeler who does also build scale models.

Oh, if nobody could have tell you the stab of the Simla was 34,0 inch I could have tell you that.</p>

Cees</p>
Edit: I see there is a wrong presentation in the picture, it must be TE wing LE stab is 1 3/4 chord but it;s only an example.

<div><span style="layout-grid-mode: line"><font size="2">UStik I did make a revA picture to be complete in the last message

</font></span></div><span style="layout-grid-mode: line"><font size="2">When you do circulate pictures or drawings yourself always puta name and date on it.(Frank Myers!)
When you changea drawing on the same date of first realization use a rev character so we do not have to look for differences.

Cees
</font></span>

</p>