hi,
with all the different brands on the market, how much difference is there between eg, RCG, RCGF, DLE, DLA or even a DA, there are lots of other engines as well, where are they made, probably China, does that matter these days with modern manufacturing processes.
by all reports the DA engines have very good after sales and service, DLE seem to be very good as well, I dont know about RCG, but I can buy 2 1/2 RCG 50 engines for the price of 1 DA 50.
I have read good and bad reports for most engines,

For most of us the $$$ are a big factor in modelling gear, from engines to radios, to kits and retracts, some people can afford the top price items, a lot of us can not.

but are they any better than some of the cheaper brands.
Are we paying for the name.

Oldtimer.

You are likely to get more opinions to this question than people answering

Here is my view in brief:
If you are able to support yourself and service a small 2-stroke engine, then you may be well adviced in going for one of the lower cost brands
If you need to rely on external support, or if you are mounting the engine into a particularly expensive plane, or if absolute reliability is important (twins etc), but the best you can afford

That pretty much covers it completely.

this link may also help explain it

[link=http://www.ydmodels.com.au/products%20/chinese-engines/]Explanation[/link]

I remember on another forum some time back (the forum was called "Flying Gonads" or something like that ) The topic was called something like "are gas engine users really this stupid" and was written by a poster named "Lawyer" or something similar (a google search may find it). That was along the same lines as the OP's question and it appears it was done for a bet that the OP won. The supporters of a particular brand or two got a bit hot under the collar, especially when the OP of that thread revealed he did it for a bet. The thread got locked. I am guessing this one will end up similar.

One always has the option of trading power, longevity, and reliability for price. You see a clear comparison of that in auto prices every day. The better, more powerful, longer lasting cars sell for more. Bicycles the same thing. Wal-Mart has some cheap ones but how long will they last and how well do the features function? Weapons share a similar pricing structure.

So you are faced with the decision of a few dollors now and more to follow or a few more dollars now and none spent later. It's basic economics that any fifth grader should be able to figure out.

If you have a need to know the best of the best, it runs in order of torque/power. MVVS, 3w. In order of quality, MVVS, 3w. From there down you have a tie for BME and DA, with ZDZ a close race with those two. The last three can be a toss up depending on what the primary requirements are. BME quality is an equal for MVVS. DA and ZDC are awful close to each other in that area. Not one of the five could be considered even the slightest bit shabby.

Now just in case you are really serious. Here is my answer based on experience.

If you just wish to bore holes in the sky, only know 2 or 3 throttle positions (perhaps with one of those being "deadstick") then it really doesn't matter what you use if you can use a few basic tools yourself. These engines are pretty basic after all. I was once one of those that didn't really notice the difference - even though during that time I had tried an early version of a well known American made product of "around 50cc's".

Then a while back, I tried some of the more "upmarket" products. In the years between I had learnt about throttle control and precision (which as a full scale aerobatic competitor, I already knew the importance of).

The better brands of engine (which do in fact cost a little more for the initial purchase) have a far superior throttle curve and a much longer life in general.

How often do you see an engine advertised as "XXXXX RPM on YYYYY Prop" yet they rarely actually do it. Get an engine - any brand - and set the throttle solid at 1/3, 1/2 or 2/3rds open - see what the largest prop they will swing and at what RPM it will swing it at at that setting - then compare it to another brand. This is the range where most fly.
Then see what the aceleration of the enginie with that largest prop is - this is important.
Then see what the throttle curve is like between 50% open of the throttle and 100% open of the throttle - many do nothing to very little in that throttle range.

Apart fom build quality, which will always cost more and is money well spent IMHO, This is where the real difference is - in useful engine power curves.

Any company can provide great backup service. It is up to the company to dedicate itself to doing so - some do it well, some don't do it at all and if you need it for any reason, you will soon appreciate it.
Any company can accidentally ship a dud product out the door for a myriad of reasons - it is how that is dealt with that matters.
The outcomes of those two points do tend to be related very closely to purchase price in most cases.

I know that my situation is best suited to paying a little more for an engine, having a great throttle curve where I use the engine and having a great quality product that I can rely upon to just work without any need for tweaks. I just wish I had opened my mind to them earlier and followed the advice I was given by some very experienced people. I would have saved my self a lot of heartache had I done so.

I just found the link to the thread I mentioned earlier.
Change the "f-gi" to have "lying"instead of the dash then "ants" after the "gi" to make it work then copy and paste it into your browser


http://www.f-gi.com/forums/showthrea...c17555&t=59043
I jsut re-read it all - still makes me laugh at how easily a number of us took the bait (including me).

hi,
Yes I was serious when I started the thread, it is not for a joke or a bet, the fact of the matter is there are a lot of these cheap engines being sold, My DLE 30 came from WA, several others in the club have them as well, only 1 had problems, it was fixed, as I said, I am very happy with my DLE, I feel the muffler could be improved.
OK some of the cheap engines might not last as long, maybe the throttle curve isnt as good, a reasonable Tx can get around the throttle curve to a certain extent, it depends on what you are flying, I had a Super Tiger motor that saw more dead sticks than not, but others have been really good, must have been a bad day in Italy.
my main thing, was only to see if there is much difference between them, eg, RCG and RCGF, from what I can find out one is the brand they send to USA the other is the brand they send elsewhere, is it the same with DLE and DLA, it is all very confusing.
Some of the threads are people having problems, not much is said about an engine if you are happy with it.

Oldtimer.

Hi Oldtimer,

As I think I said in the beginning, ask 3 people this question and you are likely to get 33 opinions
Personally, I put very little credence in the theory that engines from the same manufacturer that are sold under two trading names are different depending on where they are sold.
This applies to RCG and RCGF - they lok identical, come in an identical box and have the same manual.
In these times of smaller and smaller hobby budgets and ruthless competition, I cannot believe any manufacturer woudl volunarily maintain multiple sets of stock depending on the market area.
In regards to the DLE engines sold through Western Australia, they have long ago proven themselves to be solid engines with top rate support.
I know little about DLA except they are running seriously aggressive marketing and claim to be identical to DLE. I don't think there are enough of them out there to prove that claim either right or wrong.

Again, if you are able to carry out your own maintenance on a small 2-stroke engine, go by budget. If you need top reliability and longevity, try to buy the best brand there is.
Competition will tell you that you tend to get what you pay for these days

Mate,

You have the one "cheap" engine you can rely on. The term "cheap" is relative. it's less expensive that the high end brands but more expensive than the low end brands. I doubt the lower pricing is going to last all that much longer. Now they have the reputation and market share I would expect prices to go up a little.

surely the cheaper you buy the larger the risk you are taking in quality,, and if you go back and search this forum for the last 3 months (and as I have noticed/and as I have brought up the discussion at the field just 3 weeks ago) you will see that there has been a good share of DLE problems popping up in these last 3 months, but in all fairness I have to believe this is because their sales are rising more and more every day,,
and, surely the Chinese are making more Engines than the Top-Brands, of-course they are, it's cheaper for then to do so, but then again this leaves them open for a higher percentage of defects

""but are they any better than some of the cheaper brands""

yes they are better,,

""Are we paying for the name""

no, MVVS, DA, BME, 3W, ZDZ are higher quality products,,
you don't see complaints of these Top-Brands braking Crankshafts or Lower Rod Pins or Pistons as you do with the cheaper brands, complaints will show a $240 xxx 40cc does not have the quality of a $440 MVVS 35cc, and the Prop/RPM number have shown that some of these $240 40cc are barely equal in power to the smaller MVVS 35cc and Roto 35cc,,

over all you get what you pay for, but another angle comes into play here, how well do you know Engines, could a long time flyer that knows these Engine well such as TOM (sorry TOM for putting you on the spot) have better luck with a $240 Engine than a guy just 2 years in the hobby that knows nothing about Engines>>>> yes he could, IF the Engine is not defected

Jim

I could understand confusion in the early 90s when the IMAC fad was getting started. Now there are many established brands and models that have been proven many times over. The only question is which one of this weeks new $100 engine is the best.

This is a bit easier;
http://tinyurl.com/3hh2uss

For future reference, here's where you create those;
http://tinyurl.com/

I have to admit, Lawyergong has a point even if made in jest.
A 2 stroke petrol engine is generally a 2 stroke petrol.
As long as its not overly portly for the displacement,
is correctly jetted (the carb)
and the ignition is reliable is there a major difference.

So I'l jump into the camp that says, if you're a petrol engine newby and you want little hassles, buy an established brand.
If you're an expert two stroker then anything will do.

If you';re not an expert, but want to save on engines then befriend the local scooter mechanic. All it takes is a few cases of beer and you've made a chum for life who will tune that carb to perfection.

The way they pay local scooter mechanics, a couple cases of beer is probably half a months salary. 

Quality costs, always has always will.  If you're flying IMAC or big airplanes I wouldn't think you'd ever look at a 100 dollar engine.  If you're converting weedeaters from peoples garbage into flying engines and slapping them on sport planes, that's a different story.

Cheap is relative.  a couple bucks a day is cheap although in one shot its 700 bucks.  If you fly 10 times a year it's 70 bucks a day.  IF you fly 10 times a year and your engine ruins one or two of those days, 70 bucks a day is CHEAP.

Analyze YOUR usage and spend your money wisely.

Funny enough im a fan so far with the rcg brand and I think that they are great for the money BUT I would not agree totally with the statement that a two stroke petrol engineis a two stroke petrol engine. Materials used in the fabrication of these engines are of upmost importance for reliability and to ensure long life, I dowbt a rcg or a dle will last as long as some quality engines. I also dowbt that some of the quality brands are as good as their price....

But as the initial cost of the engines, the cheap cost of parts, the simplicity of a rebuildand the posibility that I could stuff the engine into the ground first flight makes the chinese engines a viable option for me andmany like myself who wouldhave no issues of stripping one of these engines out and doing my own repairs, so that helps.

Also dowbt all chinese engines are of the same quality, the turnigy motors for example for me on hobbyking look very cheap and dont make much power but again they are priced that low the are almost disposable if they have a fault or if you crash damage one. So who am I to turn my nose up at someone flying one if it does the job and fits the budget.

I would also agree it depends on your skill level and if you are competing with your planes or fly every day then I can see the justification of only buying the best of gear butfor most peoples skill level including myself some of the chinese engines are fine.

hi,
we are not talking about IMAC type of models here, we are talking about average pleasure fliers, that are on a budget, if I was flying competition IMAC would I be looking at engines under $200, in a $5000 plus model, or even $2000 plus, not likely.
for me a DLE is a good engine, price wise, DA, YD, MVVS and others are out of my price budget,

Oldtimer.

Of the Chinese engines, DLE is the best of the best. There can be no arguement or dispute. The others fall very short of the bar set for them by DLE.

RCG/RCGF... I was burned by that company three times with defective/deficient products and engines. The last time RCGF made the statement that since the engine was purchased from an out of country dealer they didn't have a need to handle any warranty issues. In fact, there would be no warranty. The maker of the engine or it's age and defect never was a question. RCGF just essentially told me to go screw myself because they weren't going to take any responsibility. Why I let it go to a third instead of stopping at two is beyond me, but there will never be a shot at a fourth. BTW, I was nowhere close to the first or the last that experienced that treatment, but people keep buying their stuff so the situation is far from over.

Can an experienced two stroke person get more out of the bottom dollar brands than most others? Of course they can but they have to understand what their time and labor is worth. By the time one manages to obtain enough spare parts to make a good engine, perform the labor, install the engines, and do the testing, they will have more into the engine than a high quality engine would have cost them. Quite often, or in reality more often than not, the bottom dollar companies don't have any parts in circulation so finding parts that will fit ends up quite an endeavor. It's just not worth it in the long run. The moment one has more than 5 hours into the process of upgrading any perceived savings from buying the cheap engine are long gone.

Can a gas newbie be the cause of many of their new engines problems? Oh, absolutely, positively, with extreme frequency, yes. You read their posts every week in various forums. Some forums are so bad for it you don't ever bother to reply. Other forums have quite a bit and a reply as to the true cuse of the problem brings out a lot of anger from the brand loyalists and a couple of moderators, so you just let them continue to destroy their new toys.

Are all two strokes essentially the same? To agree with that question simply illustrates the level of ignorance someone has with two stroke engines. What they see externally isn't the true picture. Not by a long shot. Although typically the higher end engines will have much better castings or machine work with higher levels of finish and accuracy, what many don't understand is how that external finish translates to performance. Better cooling, stonger case and cylinder structures, better spark plug fit permitting improved flame kernal generation.

Internally the situation changes further. Better porting, seriously improved combustion chamber design, higher quality crankshaft materials, better corner radiusing, superior crank welding, tighter rod/crank journal tolerances, superior wrist pin/piston boss tolerances providing better rod and piston alignment with the crank lower, higher quality bearings. Then we have counter balance to case fit, which is everything in how well an engine pumps air and fuel to promote a power and exhaust cycle. Piston design, skirt depth, piston skirt design aiding the intake process, ring material and design. Definately not the same between engine makers/assemblers but having great impact in engine performance.

No, the uninitiated really don't have a clue, but if it's cheap enough to meet affordability it should be able to do what they want it to do. Right? No, that's not right, but some people will always be able to use "barely acceptable" as their standard in many of life's endeavors. If they can find a way to fit it into the budget, mostly as a "gotta have it right now" purchase, the price justifies everything. From that point forward they get to deal with all the problems that will be associated down the line with the original purchase. Of course those issues will be the fault of the manufacturer because no manufacturer should have ever put such a shoddy product on the market, right? Those consumers expected, and expect, manufacturers to be looking out for the consumer, providing the best that can be had for as little as can be spent, right? Not hardly.

The flip side are the poeple that know and accept they will not be getting the best when they buy the cheapest possible engine, anticipating that problems may arise, but deal with such things honestly as they arise. They understand the product will simply meet and rarely exceed their needs for a limited period of time and plan for a later replacement.

I do get a kick out of those that mention being on a budget. Any hobby is afforded through "disposable" income. At least that's the way it should be. To have a hobby budget, or budget specifically in order to afford any hobby, casts a dim light on the comprehension of basic economics. Any hobby is an option, not a requirement. To try and make it a requirement is ludricous.

We need to keep this sruff in better perspective. We do this stuff because we want to, not because we have or need to.

well I am glad I got a more than a few responses on the two stroke Is a two stroke comment. Of course there are massive differences from mechanical design to thermodynamics to response to lubrication. Sure there's firing timing, advance. Then there's piston weight, conrod weight crankshaft stiffness and all the other things mentioned. That's why a DLE 20cc out performs some 26cc engines.Cream always rises to the top and I'll certainly agree that instant gratification and the desire to own more toys drives people to look for cheaper and cheaper options. Along the way, quality becomes distorted.

Yeah, it's not just about a piston getting to the top and having a spark ignite a combustable mixture to drive the piston back down.

Good points..

Hence my signature line...

Rick

Are the EVO engines the same as the MVVS?

Sort of.
"Evo" is
A Brand of Engine from Spain - no they are not the same.
A series of Engines from JC Engines - definitely not the same - not even as far up the category ladder as any other brand.

"Evolution" is an engine brand name used by Horizon hobbies that is often referred to as "Evo"

I have been told by some who know significantly more about them than I that the "Evolution" brand engines are assembled by Horizon out of parts supplied by MVVS. The parts are definitley MVVS parts fo rthe 26, 35, 40, 50, 58, 80, 116 and 152 Gasser series (GX's).
The recent range of Radial Gassers or the Glow engines sold under the Evolution name are not from the MVVS source.

one thing I will say is if you buy a $60,0000 dollar car and save a few dollars by importing it from a different market than you live in do not expect your local dealer to solve your problems for you,they are not entitled to do so. This is comon practice and fact, companys are only going to pay for warrenty issues that they are contractly obliged to.

This "Price" vs "good enough quality" vs "does the job" debate reminds me of a couple of very recent "smallish sized twin cylinder" engines recently released. Lets call them brands "M1" & "M2". Both are from China and both are from manufacturers that have been around as long or longer than DLE (neither brand is DLE). Both brands have a sound design concept behind them (most likely having been copied from elsewhere) and by all acounts when both brands are running they fly a plane just fine.

"M1"'s Engine.
This manufacturer has made quite a range of engines over the years, Some were almost decent, few are still flown, many were thrown in the bin early in life but they were all low cost to purchase and the factory still exists (just) as there are many buyers out there that use that low cost to justify their purchase.
This manufacturer made a twin cylinder where the version 1 had a lot of problems associated with the implementation of the design. One of those problems involved the fit of the crank pins in the crank webs. Later version of it fixed this problem by putting pins through the webs and pins to stop the pins walking out of the web. My only guess as to why this was done would be either because it saved the manufacturer from rejecting the crank webs that had oversized holes or because the oversized holes made it quicker to assemble the crank - neither is a valid excuse regarding the "luck" of the customer.
That same company also had a defect in the crankcase design that often cause uneven transfer of the fuel / air charge to the cylinders so the engine tended to "run rough". Couple that with poor factory assembly hygiene (crankcases full of junk) and a parts acceptance "tolerance" that was too great (if it existed at all) and the end users ended up very much with what they paid for. The "overseas" distributors of this product ended up dropping the product as the amount of disgruntlement was too high. The factory revised a coulpe of minor parts of the design (especially the crankcase - it is now even easier to assemble) The "aceptance tolerances" for parts remains and you can still buy the product new on a number of "low cost items" websites. People buy them, they will run in a fashion and some will think they are a great enigne due to not knowing what a great enigne feels like.


"M2"'s Engine.
This manufacturer has also made quite a range of engines over the years including a lot of industrial engines. Ironically the owner of "M1" also worked for this factory for a while. Some of the early RC engines from this factory were reknowned for breaking crankshafts and being very weak performers, many were thrown in the bin early in life but they were all low cost to purchase and the factory still exists.

This manufacturer made a twin cylinder where the version 1 had a crank associated problem but otherwise performed reasonably fine. They stopped supplying them for a while, took a breather and recently re-released them. Because of the known issues of low performance by the brand, because of a slightly higher price and perhaps because the distributor of the brand is not as well liked as others in the hobby, they have not sold particularly well so far. Only recently have we seen these engines on the "low cost" websites and I have no doubt that soon we will see people raving about them. (because they know no different).

Now "Brand 3"
This is a brand made in a different country to the other 2 brands mentioned. Tha manufacturer has been around longer than most manufacturers for this hobby and is often credited with being the manufacturer that others "copied" from.

The capacity of their small twin is about 0.8 times the capacity of the other 2 brands yet it produces the same power as the other 2 (because it fires on both cylinders every time). It does cost near twice as much yet will outlast the other 2 by a factor of "many many" times. It is not a popular choice because of its initial purchase price. Its internal components have a very strict in house "Acceptance" tolerance and it is assembled under a very strict regime. It was developed with a lot of R&D expense and effort.

When running, all 3 of the above products will turn a prop and fly a plane. How well and how long is a whole other issue but to the uninitiated, as long as the fuel is being compressed and usually burns - it is fine to those and this is why the "cheapies" can and will continue to exist despite having supplied some real junk along the way (and in many cases continue to get away with doing so).