Saito FG-60R3
10-30-2016, 08:09 AM
#951
Wow guys.
i have also had a cracked cylinder on my fg -60. No2 cracked while I was at joe nall 2016. I noticed it wasn't running right so I landed and cut the engine off once I had cleared the runway. I went to check the engine and noticed a fair amount of oil and that's when I found the crack at back ears. It was on Friday and by the time I made it to the horizon tent they had already left. Anyways, I did get the cylinder fixed, I did the work myself and after adding some baffles I have put about 10 -10 min flights on it since. I did wrap the keleo exhaust but I guess I'm going to have to take that off. If you google search what the main causes of cylinder cracking or failures on full size aircraft, you will see that heat and incorrect timing mentioned a lot. So I feel that adding baffles to keep this engine cool is essential. The timing we can't really fix. I feel that no2 timing is between 10-17* early, thus acting as detonation an adding extra stress on the cylinder. I believe no 1 is timed correctly and no3 is late. I had no 2 intake valve get stuck open one day at the first start of the day. The engine still ran but I was able to maintain an 800 rpm idle.
I would still buy this engine, in fact I am considering buying the VQ bearcat and getting an FG-60 for it. An the thought of building a B-25 with 2 of them on it crossed my mind a time or two. Seeing the video of someone that has done it already was a real treat.
My .02.
i have also had a cracked cylinder on my fg -60. No2 cracked while I was at joe nall 2016. I noticed it wasn't running right so I landed and cut the engine off once I had cleared the runway. I went to check the engine and noticed a fair amount of oil and that's when I found the crack at back ears. It was on Friday and by the time I made it to the horizon tent they had already left. Anyways, I did get the cylinder fixed, I did the work myself and after adding some baffles I have put about 10 -10 min flights on it since. I did wrap the keleo exhaust but I guess I'm going to have to take that off. If you google search what the main causes of cylinder cracking or failures on full size aircraft, you will see that heat and incorrect timing mentioned a lot. So I feel that adding baffles to keep this engine cool is essential. The timing we can't really fix. I feel that no2 timing is between 10-17* early, thus acting as detonation an adding extra stress on the cylinder. I believe no 1 is timed correctly and no3 is late. I had no 2 intake valve get stuck open one day at the first start of the day. The engine still ran but I was able to maintain an 800 rpm idle.
I would still buy this engine, in fact I am considering buying the VQ bearcat and getting an FG-60 for it. An the thought of building a B-25 with 2 of them on it crossed my mind a time or two. Seeing the video of someone that has done it already was a real treat.
My .02.
10-30-2016, 08:27 AM
#952
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Cathurga, when I got mine, there was 2 cases of failures reported in this thread. Back than I was trying to decide between fg57 vs. fg60 and I decided to take the risk and go with fg60 thinking that these might be isolated cases. While doing so, my engineer instinct was telling me to go with fg57, basically less is more but I made an emotional choice :-). So I decided I will fly as much as I can while warranty is available, expecting something will/may go wrong. I ran the engine with great care following all the instructions. When I reached 35-40 flights, I started thinking it is all just fine and engine is getting broken in nicely and I started to have 100% trust to the engine and was about to order a second one to start another project. But at the end failure took place when I least expected.
We come here to share our experiences and learn from each other, I am very much interested what oil you use your rpm/temperature/prop data and any success failure you have. I apologize if my critics come accross negative, this was not my intention. But I find it more responsible to do conservative statements to help others to decide unless one has 20-30 liters or equavalent number of run time. I am also looking forward hearing success stories from the others,too, and what they have done differently.
I will update if I read interesting stuff in other forums, there was just couple of more failures recently and now that summer is gone it seems people have a lot more to discuss.
We come here to share our experiences and learn from each other, I am very much interested what oil you use your rpm/temperature/prop data and any success failure you have. I apologize if my critics come accross negative, this was not my intention. But I find it more responsible to do conservative statements to help others to decide unless one has 20-30 liters or equavalent number of run time. I am also looking forward hearing success stories from the others,too, and what they have done differently.
I will update if I read interesting stuff in other forums, there was just couple of more failures recently and now that summer is gone it seems people have a lot more to discuss.
10-30-2016, 08:33 AM
#953
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10-30-2016, 09:31 AM
#954
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And they are all to expensive (kolm and valach) and most are to big to fit inside the cowl.
Maybe I'll just fly the ASP400 on nitro with ignition..later to convert to gas.
Maybe I'll just fly the ASP400 on nitro with ignition..later to convert to gas.
Last edited by femmo; 10-30-2016 at 10:47 AM.
10-30-2016, 11:15 AM
#955
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Scuba, comments on here take as if they were being helpful, we are all in the same boat here and anything we can do to get good value for our money, is helpful to all of us. We would all try different things, and have different experiences. Lets just hope we can find some common link.
MDavis, yeah, sorry, it was you who I read about having the cylinder failure in the air, and it seems to be similar to the experience my one engines previous owner had.
Marksp, do you have any pics of the modded intake plenum that RE sells. I did mech eng diploma YEARS ago, and have never employed it in that capacity in a workplace since, so I THINK of myself as knowing a lot, but in practice, probably not. That said, when I first opened my engine up, it seemed odd that the carb barrel is so small, then it opens out into this enormous cavern of a plenum, only to go back into the induction tubes. My (limited) knowledge of fuel distribution tells me that this is not ideal, but I was under the impression that the RE mods employed by Saito, resolved any problems that were inherent in that system.
The engine is fraught with inconsistencies, and my biggest concern is lubrication. Knowing almost every 4 stroke engine has a wet sump, apart from a glow engine, and the stihl hybrid engines that have valves but lubricate through the crankcase induction too. On this basis, I don't believe that the upper valve train gets enough, and the lower cylinders only get enough because gravity is doing its thing. The top one....no way.
Ok, so a bit more on my engine then Scuba...
I did my break in, all standard, with 15:1 Redline oil, I followed Hpergm (I think his name here) Hector, I believe. I was rotating it on the stand and was surprised at how in the vertical, No2 was pretty much firing every 3rd cycle, when you tilt it up to the vertical, off she went! Kept doing that for about 3 tanks and then did the same inverted, again tilting it as it went. The I started leaning it up. I was running a 22x8 prop for break in. Once I had it leaned up to about 1.25 on the HS, and around 6 on the LS. I went flying on the same oil ratio after setting valves and tightening up the screws (cold tighten) It was a little anaemic and I put that down to the prop pitch being too low. Was getting around 6600 rpm static, and thought that was too high. So slung a 22x10 on it. Got around 6300-6500 on the ground
I was running a Spektrum telemetry system on it, and I was getting readings as high as 170C without baffles, in the Yak-55 airframe. I built baffles, and the temps dropped to around 150C which I was happier with. I tested the telemetry modules on the ground against a laser thermos, and found I was getting readings on Spektrum that were about 10-15% higher than the laser temps. Mad me feel even better because I assumed the high temps were within spec. I don't like any of my engines running above 150C for any extended period. Around this time, I checked the cylinder screws while it was warm, not hot, and thought them to be a little loose...maybe 1/4 to 1/5 turn on some of them.
I was having problems maintaining the tune, and I mean from one flight to the next, and the frustration of that lead me to Morris Walbro conversion. I installed that, and found that the carb he sold me seemed to be a dud. It wasn't a genuine Walbro, and looked unlike any similar carb I had seen before. I put it back on the test stand to try to get things sorted out. I found that the engine would idle at 1200 rpm reliably, with the throttle completely closed, and no idle screw on!! It would not turn off unless you killed the ignition!!??
So back to the Saito carb. I had to turn down a Bakelite tube to get the saito carb back on, as the original one between carb and backplate, basically needs to be destroyed to remove.Summer arrived in Dubai and 45-50C ambient is not nice, and even worse for a radial that is getting hot! Smashed around with the DLE's that give me little to NO uphill!
The I bought the second engine, assuming it had been repaired before, I thought it might have value in spares, but when I got it, I found the homemade gaskets, and also No1 exhaust pushrod and the nut it goes into, were worn and the pushrod was basically on the edge of the nut....holding the exhaust valve open. The 'engineer' in me took over, and I ordered a gasket set, new pushrods and nuts. When those arrived, I installed them and thought it seemed pretty good. So to hell with this, it became my test 'biatch' :-)
After some reading, maybe too much, I decided to look into oil options. Redline is designed to burn off as much as possible during combustion, its desirable from an eco-perspective to have as little contaminants running into our woodlands and lakes as possible. This does not bode well for an engine that NEEDS residual lubrication, because its not coming from a sump or other source. I decided Klotz Super Tech, with some Benol castor in it. As soon as I had bought it, a guy on RCG got a note from a Klotz Engineer who said the Normal Techniplate is better. Aargh. Anyway, as I had the stuff, I thought I would continue. I know someone on this site, opened up an engine running the Supr Tech, and he posted pics of the carbon build up. Scary. The I thought maybe during break in, and excessive ratio of oil, maybe that's the cause. So I have done two tanks through this engine, 20:1 while tuning it. And there is no mid-rang burble, it transitions well, and is getting 6400 rpm. The LS I think may need some attention, it is very loose in its threads so maybe the o-ring is done. I will be investigating this weekend and then running it again. I am going to take a spark plug out of No2 cyl before I move it, and see if any excess oil comes out. I have put paper towel under the exhaust and the crank breather and just an hour or two after running, I could see some clear castor had dripped out the exhaust. Nothing out of the crank breather.
Will report with more findings when I can.
Just some things I have noted from input of others. A friend of mine here in Dubai, who is a well respected flyer and has competed in World Jet Masters, is well known through the RC global community, also has one of these. He has done the break in procedure, and is no leaned it out to optimum and he has 1.25 on the high, and around 4 on the LS....I am working with him to try and get mine sorted out, and trust his judgement implicitly. He is running Redline at 16:1 for the first few tanks to see if it is any different to how mine behaves. He is a devout supporter of Redline, and so am I, on 2-strokes. So I will have first hand accounts of different setups.
I am quite happy to keep posting my findings here, if you all wanna hear it. And I am in no way trying to influence anyone, to the good or the bad. Just hope it helps, the way I have gained help from others here.
MDavis, yeah, sorry, it was you who I read about having the cylinder failure in the air, and it seems to be similar to the experience my one engines previous owner had.
Marksp, do you have any pics of the modded intake plenum that RE sells. I did mech eng diploma YEARS ago, and have never employed it in that capacity in a workplace since, so I THINK of myself as knowing a lot, but in practice, probably not. That said, when I first opened my engine up, it seemed odd that the carb barrel is so small, then it opens out into this enormous cavern of a plenum, only to go back into the induction tubes. My (limited) knowledge of fuel distribution tells me that this is not ideal, but I was under the impression that the RE mods employed by Saito, resolved any problems that were inherent in that system.
The engine is fraught with inconsistencies, and my biggest concern is lubrication. Knowing almost every 4 stroke engine has a wet sump, apart from a glow engine, and the stihl hybrid engines that have valves but lubricate through the crankcase induction too. On this basis, I don't believe that the upper valve train gets enough, and the lower cylinders only get enough because gravity is doing its thing. The top one....no way.
Ok, so a bit more on my engine then Scuba...
I did my break in, all standard, with 15:1 Redline oil, I followed Hpergm (I think his name here) Hector, I believe. I was rotating it on the stand and was surprised at how in the vertical, No2 was pretty much firing every 3rd cycle, when you tilt it up to the vertical, off she went! Kept doing that for about 3 tanks and then did the same inverted, again tilting it as it went. The I started leaning it up. I was running a 22x8 prop for break in. Once I had it leaned up to about 1.25 on the HS, and around 6 on the LS. I went flying on the same oil ratio after setting valves and tightening up the screws (cold tighten) It was a little anaemic and I put that down to the prop pitch being too low. Was getting around 6600 rpm static, and thought that was too high. So slung a 22x10 on it. Got around 6300-6500 on the ground
I was running a Spektrum telemetry system on it, and I was getting readings as high as 170C without baffles, in the Yak-55 airframe. I built baffles, and the temps dropped to around 150C which I was happier with. I tested the telemetry modules on the ground against a laser thermos, and found I was getting readings on Spektrum that were about 10-15% higher than the laser temps. Mad me feel even better because I assumed the high temps were within spec. I don't like any of my engines running above 150C for any extended period. Around this time, I checked the cylinder screws while it was warm, not hot, and thought them to be a little loose...maybe 1/4 to 1/5 turn on some of them.
I was having problems maintaining the tune, and I mean from one flight to the next, and the frustration of that lead me to Morris Walbro conversion. I installed that, and found that the carb he sold me seemed to be a dud. It wasn't a genuine Walbro, and looked unlike any similar carb I had seen before. I put it back on the test stand to try to get things sorted out. I found that the engine would idle at 1200 rpm reliably, with the throttle completely closed, and no idle screw on!! It would not turn off unless you killed the ignition!!??
So back to the Saito carb. I had to turn down a Bakelite tube to get the saito carb back on, as the original one between carb and backplate, basically needs to be destroyed to remove.Summer arrived in Dubai and 45-50C ambient is not nice, and even worse for a radial that is getting hot! Smashed around with the DLE's that give me little to NO uphill!
The I bought the second engine, assuming it had been repaired before, I thought it might have value in spares, but when I got it, I found the homemade gaskets, and also No1 exhaust pushrod and the nut it goes into, were worn and the pushrod was basically on the edge of the nut....holding the exhaust valve open. The 'engineer' in me took over, and I ordered a gasket set, new pushrods and nuts. When those arrived, I installed them and thought it seemed pretty good. So to hell with this, it became my test 'biatch' :-)
After some reading, maybe too much, I decided to look into oil options. Redline is designed to burn off as much as possible during combustion, its desirable from an eco-perspective to have as little contaminants running into our woodlands and lakes as possible. This does not bode well for an engine that NEEDS residual lubrication, because its not coming from a sump or other source. I decided Klotz Super Tech, with some Benol castor in it. As soon as I had bought it, a guy on RCG got a note from a Klotz Engineer who said the Normal Techniplate is better. Aargh. Anyway, as I had the stuff, I thought I would continue. I know someone on this site, opened up an engine running the Supr Tech, and he posted pics of the carbon build up. Scary. The I thought maybe during break in, and excessive ratio of oil, maybe that's the cause. So I have done two tanks through this engine, 20:1 while tuning it. And there is no mid-rang burble, it transitions well, and is getting 6400 rpm. The LS I think may need some attention, it is very loose in its threads so maybe the o-ring is done. I will be investigating this weekend and then running it again. I am going to take a spark plug out of No2 cyl before I move it, and see if any excess oil comes out. I have put paper towel under the exhaust and the crank breather and just an hour or two after running, I could see some clear castor had dripped out the exhaust. Nothing out of the crank breather.
Will report with more findings when I can.
Just some things I have noted from input of others. A friend of mine here in Dubai, who is a well respected flyer and has competed in World Jet Masters, is well known through the RC global community, also has one of these. He has done the break in procedure, and is no leaned it out to optimum and he has 1.25 on the high, and around 4 on the LS....I am working with him to try and get mine sorted out, and trust his judgement implicitly. He is running Redline at 16:1 for the first few tanks to see if it is any different to how mine behaves. He is a devout supporter of Redline, and so am I, on 2-strokes. So I will have first hand accounts of different setups.
I am quite happy to keep posting my findings here, if you all wanna hear it. And I am in no way trying to influence anyone, to the good or the bad. Just hope it helps, the way I have gained help from others here.
10-30-2016, 01:27 PM
#956
Hi
I think that the problem with the broken crankcase is more complicated than someone believe. Major is the temp of the motor, the oil quality and how much contained into the gas, and also the gas quality. The high temp maybe also caused by to much back pressure from exhaust. Or it was a bunch of engines with problem in cylinder and just happen to customer. Detonation due to wrong timing or problem to spark plug can cause a broken crankcase.... and etc etc....
We must have more details from the people with broken crankcases and from my experience at R/C world nobody will tell you all the story.... We have to be very careful and patient with these engines. But and the end of the day damage can be done to anybody of us.....
I think that the problem with the broken crankcase is more complicated than someone believe. Major is the temp of the motor, the oil quality and how much contained into the gas, and also the gas quality. The high temp maybe also caused by to much back pressure from exhaust. Or it was a bunch of engines with problem in cylinder and just happen to customer. Detonation due to wrong timing or problem to spark plug can cause a broken crankcase.... and etc etc....
We must have more details from the people with broken crankcases and from my experience at R/C world nobody will tell you all the story.... We have to be very careful and patient with these engines. But and the end of the day damage can be done to anybody of us.....
10-30-2016, 04:01 PM
#957
Marksp, do you have any pics of the modded intake plenum that RE sells.... it seemed odd that the carb barrel is so small, then it opens out into this enormous cavern of a plenum, only to go back into the induction tubes. My (limited) knowledge of fuel distribution tells me that this is not ideal, but I was under the impression that the RE mods employed by Saito, resolved any problems that were inherent in that system.
FG-60R3 design improved fuel distribution relative to 33R3/84R3 based on Ray's plenum design but my guess is there is some 'secret sauce' in calculating plenum volume/flow rates, which as implemented are sub-optimal.
10-31-2016, 10:25 AM
#958
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Would just like to take a moment to publicly thank radfordc for helping with my broken thermal insulator tube. He machined up a nylon replacement and sent it to me. It appears to fit well, I haven't run the engine up yet, hope to do so soon.
Thanks for taking the time, and incurring some postage costs, to help out a fellow modeller. Much appreciated!!
sincerely
Alf
Thanks for taking the time, and incurring some postage costs, to help out a fellow modeller. Much appreciated!!
sincerely
Alf
10-31-2016, 12:03 PM
#959
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Alfie, Good news, and great of a fellow modeller to help another out!
Mark, thanks for the input, it would be nice to see one of the chambers in pics, just to see the difference...
Harris, yes it would be nice to hear of others opinions.
Having looked over some threads, it might be helpful to find out how many of the failures happened with the Keleo exhaust system installed. All of you who have installed these systems will have noted, that it is VERY difficult to get these exhausts systems fitted, even the Keleo instructions comment on the fact that this is to be expected, and although I don't know enough about their manufacturing process, but perhaps there is some misalignment happening that puts excessive pressure on the cylinders during normal operation? When they heat up/cool down at different rates, perhaps this excessive pressure exacerbates the problem. If any of the guys are still around that have had the failures, perhaps you could comment. I believe my second engine had the failure with the Keleo.
It would also be nice to know if anyone has fitted the Horizon collector ring, and if so, was fitment as difficult as a Keleo is to get on?
Mark, thanks for the input, it would be nice to see one of the chambers in pics, just to see the difference...
Harris, yes it would be nice to hear of others opinions.
Having looked over some threads, it might be helpful to find out how many of the failures happened with the Keleo exhaust system installed. All of you who have installed these systems will have noted, that it is VERY difficult to get these exhausts systems fitted, even the Keleo instructions comment on the fact that this is to be expected, and although I don't know enough about their manufacturing process, but perhaps there is some misalignment happening that puts excessive pressure on the cylinders during normal operation? When they heat up/cool down at different rates, perhaps this excessive pressure exacerbates the problem. If any of the guys are still around that have had the failures, perhaps you could comment. I believe my second engine had the failure with the Keleo.
It would also be nice to know if anyone has fitted the Horizon collector ring, and if so, was fitment as difficult as a Keleo is to get on?
10-31-2016, 05:28 PM
#961
I may have stated this before and still find it potentially related and interesting. After having Ray English apply his intake plenum mod to my FG-33R3 and knowing he licensed his design to Saito for the FG-60R3 I was excited to pick up this engine for a 50cc size warbird. I reached out to him to clarify oil preferences and let him know I had an FG-60 coming. He shared with me that although the FG-60R3 did in fact incorporate his redesigned intake plenum for fuel routing, Saito unfortunately designed in too much volume for optimal operation.
He offers an intake mod that reduces fuel volume resulting in a better performing engine (with up to 500 additional RPM).
I'm not promoting, just wondering if there is a link between Ray's early analysis of excessive fuel, and speculation of internal pressure related failures???
He offers an intake mod that reduces fuel volume resulting in a better performing engine (with up to 500 additional RPM).
I'm not promoting, just wondering if there is a link between Ray's early analysis of excessive fuel, and speculation of internal pressure related failures???
First of all, the FG60R3 came out about 6-weeks before he signed a contract with Saito for his design mods (seems that I heard this elsewhere, too). When Ray did the video on the FG84R3, he did not use the final design, as he assumed it would be copied. Guess what? According to Ray, the FG60R3 is copied, roughly, from the intermediate design in the video. It does NOT have the final intake plenum design! This is why carthuga said:
... when I first opened my engine up, it seemed odd that the carb barrel is so small, then it opens out into this enormous cavern of a plenum, only to go back into the induction tubes. My (limited) knowledge of fuel distribution tells me that this is not ideal, but I was under the impression that the RE mods employed by Saito, resolved any problems that were inherent in that system.
As it pertains to cylinder failures:
Ray says that one of the main issues is the "$#^^&^%itty-a $$ d&%&amn" intake manifold they used (his technical term), indicating that this is a root cause of these failures, since some hydraulic lock is taking place (though it may not be complete lock), which subsequently stresses and weakens the cylinder on number 2. It then fails, sometimes in the air. He said that it is IMPERATIVE that you turn the prop through 5-6 times to make sure that you do NOT have any higher than normal compression, which would indicate locking, prior to starting this, or any, radial engine. Additionally, he suggested that the locking often happens after the engine has just been sitting. Oil seeps into the jug when it sits, and then, next time out at the field, someone hits it with an electric starter, which causes the cylinder weakening. By the way, he said this engine does not need a starter. He never uses one...
He acknowledged that Saito had gotten the conrod bushing addition correct when they did the FG60R3. However, he currently is working with them on a 19cc engine, on which he insisted that they install a needle bearing.
I hope this helps somewhat! I am seriously thinking of sending my engine to Ray for the mods.
Last edited by slither; 10-31-2016 at 05:49 PM. Reason: I edited the posting before and it decided to do duplicate postings, instead of posting my edits...
10-31-2016, 06:22 PM
#964
Would just like to take a moment to publicly thank radfordc for helping with my broken thermal insulator tube. He machined up a nylon replacement and sent it to me. It appears to fit well, I haven't run the engine up yet, hope to do so soon.
Thanks for taking the time, and incurring some postage costs, to help out a fellow modeller. Much appreciated!!
sincerely
Alf
Thanks for taking the time, and incurring some postage costs, to help out a fellow modeller. Much appreciated!!
sincerely
Alf
10-31-2016, 06:31 PM
#965
Ok, so a bit more on my engine then Scuba...
I did my break in, all standard, with 15:1 Redline oil,
After some reading, maybe too much, I decided to look into oil options. Redline is designed to burn off as much as possible during combustion, its desirable from an eco-perspective to have as little contaminants running into our woodlands and lakes as possible. This does not bode well for an engine that NEEDS residual lubrication, because its not coming from a sump or other source.
Just some things I have noted from input of others. A friend of mine here in Dubai, who is a well respected flyer and has competed in World Jet Masters, is well known through the RC global community, also has one of these. He has done the break in procedure, and is no leaned it out to optimum and he has 1.25 on the high, and around 4 on the LS....I am working with him to try and get mine sorted out, and trust his judgement implicitly. He is running Redline at 16:1 for the first few tanks to see if it is any different to how mine behaves. He is a devout supporter of Redline, and so am I, on 2-strokes. So I will have first hand accounts of different setups.
I have used 20:1 Redline only in my engine and so far so good. I have run several gallons of gas through the engine. Every time I finish flying I have to wipe lots of oil off the bottom of the cowl that has been pumped out the crankcase vent....lots of oil is going through my engine.
Maybe if your friend the expert says Redline is OK we can put this rumor to bed?
10-31-2016, 11:06 PM
#966
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Slither, interesting read from RE. There appears to be a little love/hate between him and Saito/HH. I don't want to speculate on whose right/wrong, but I FULLY agree with him on the needle bearing in the new engine, and it should have been on ALL the engines. It might have taken the engine out of the price range we see it in, so I suppose economics have played their part.
With regards to the inlet plenum, I am going to see if I can get one from RE, and fit it to my 'test' engine. In the interim, I ALWAYS turn the prop over a few times, cautiously before any starting, and I NEVER use a starter on this engine.
Radford, I don't doubt redline in any way, infact, I have been using it on other engines for a long time, and I stand by it as a product of outstanding ability. In the first few runs of my engine, including the break in, I was using it and there was a lot of 'slobber' coming out of the engine, especially during the break in phases. I kept a paper towel shoved up the exhaust pipe, during storage, to stop all the oil mess on the floor. Even when I moved to 20:1, after each flight there was a mess to clean up on the bottom of the plane. I assumed it was a mix of unburnt 'stuff' coming out the exhaust, and the crank breather. My crank breather was in front of the exhaust pipe, with an angle on the tip that caused negative vacuum from the exhaust gasses. After sitting for a week, there was always a mess on that paper towel. Don't get me wrong, there was oil coming through, but I also knew that some of that was from the residual oil I put into the crankcase, so wasn't really sure how much of that was still in there. I also had oil seeping out of No3 exhaust flange, where the exhaust manifold is bolted on. No matter how tight that thing was, there was always 'blow-by' splatter on the inside of the cowl right there, and some spewed back against the firewall.
If we can debunk the Redline issue, I will be as happy as the rest of you. The information I got regarding not using Redline or outboard oil, was from the guy who helped RE make those videos of the upgrades, CondorXXX or something similar. He kinda suggested that people are having to run the engine too rich in order to get the lubrication, and I didn't really follow that line of discussion too well, but what he said regarding the oil burning off as much as possible during combustion, does make sense.
I ran mine yesterday again, with my friend Darryl, of whom I spoke previously, and the engine was running beautifully after we tuned it up. Had about 6300 rpm on the ground, and idled at 1500 easily. Transitions from there were 'brutal' no misses, no hiccups, just WHAM. I installed Jeti temp sensors on No's 1&2 cyls and during around 15min of running, with some extended wide open periods, temps never went higher than 155C and dropped off very quickly when throttled down. Idle temps were around 90C and the 2 cyls were always within 10C of each other. with an ambient temp of around 32C. Darryl and I agreed that it was good to go, and needles were set at around 1.25 on the HS and around 4.5 on the LS. There was a fair amount of residue on the ground, but a lot of that might have been from the rich running as we set the needles out to start with, and leaned it up over the session.
he is going to continue with his setup, also with Keleo, on Redline at 20:1. And I will continue with the Klotz Super Tech at 20:1. I think from this statement, you will understand that I am not here to bash Redline at all, I am not trying to convince anyone not to use it, least of all a seasoned 'professional' like Darryl. What we will do, is see how they run, perform over a period of time. I am considering removing the Keleo for now, just to try and remove that from the equation.
Don't assume I am knocking anything, I am just moving to manufacturer spec as much as possible, and HOPEFULLY I will be able to run the nuts off this things during our winter months. If I start seeing excessive carbon build up, I will be the first to return to Redline.
With regards to the inlet plenum, I am going to see if I can get one from RE, and fit it to my 'test' engine. In the interim, I ALWAYS turn the prop over a few times, cautiously before any starting, and I NEVER use a starter on this engine.
Radford, I don't doubt redline in any way, infact, I have been using it on other engines for a long time, and I stand by it as a product of outstanding ability. In the first few runs of my engine, including the break in, I was using it and there was a lot of 'slobber' coming out of the engine, especially during the break in phases. I kept a paper towel shoved up the exhaust pipe, during storage, to stop all the oil mess on the floor. Even when I moved to 20:1, after each flight there was a mess to clean up on the bottom of the plane. I assumed it was a mix of unburnt 'stuff' coming out the exhaust, and the crank breather. My crank breather was in front of the exhaust pipe, with an angle on the tip that caused negative vacuum from the exhaust gasses. After sitting for a week, there was always a mess on that paper towel. Don't get me wrong, there was oil coming through, but I also knew that some of that was from the residual oil I put into the crankcase, so wasn't really sure how much of that was still in there. I also had oil seeping out of No3 exhaust flange, where the exhaust manifold is bolted on. No matter how tight that thing was, there was always 'blow-by' splatter on the inside of the cowl right there, and some spewed back against the firewall.
If we can debunk the Redline issue, I will be as happy as the rest of you. The information I got regarding not using Redline or outboard oil, was from the guy who helped RE make those videos of the upgrades, CondorXXX or something similar. He kinda suggested that people are having to run the engine too rich in order to get the lubrication, and I didn't really follow that line of discussion too well, but what he said regarding the oil burning off as much as possible during combustion, does make sense.
I ran mine yesterday again, with my friend Darryl, of whom I spoke previously, and the engine was running beautifully after we tuned it up. Had about 6300 rpm on the ground, and idled at 1500 easily. Transitions from there were 'brutal' no misses, no hiccups, just WHAM. I installed Jeti temp sensors on No's 1&2 cyls and during around 15min of running, with some extended wide open periods, temps never went higher than 155C and dropped off very quickly when throttled down. Idle temps were around 90C and the 2 cyls were always within 10C of each other. with an ambient temp of around 32C. Darryl and I agreed that it was good to go, and needles were set at around 1.25 on the HS and around 4.5 on the LS. There was a fair amount of residue on the ground, but a lot of that might have been from the rich running as we set the needles out to start with, and leaned it up over the session.
he is going to continue with his setup, also with Keleo, on Redline at 20:1. And I will continue with the Klotz Super Tech at 20:1. I think from this statement, you will understand that I am not here to bash Redline at all, I am not trying to convince anyone not to use it, least of all a seasoned 'professional' like Darryl. What we will do, is see how they run, perform over a period of time. I am considering removing the Keleo for now, just to try and remove that from the equation.
Don't assume I am knocking anything, I am just moving to manufacturer spec as much as possible, and HOPEFULLY I will be able to run the nuts off this things during our winter months. If I start seeing excessive carbon build up, I will be the first to return to Redline.
Last edited by cathurga; 10-31-2016 at 11:09 PM.
10-31-2016, 11:16 PM
#967
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Just as a side note, I asked Darryl what his temps were on his Moki engines, and he said operational temperature was around 160C, with some extended to 175C. This builds some confidence in me, as the highest mine has gone was around 170-175, so I get the feeling my dislike of high temps is a little unfounded. But I like to err on the side of caution. Hot engines, with little parts like these, is not good.
I am also going to see what sort of state the N01 rocker areas are in with regards to lube. I really would like to see more lube in there....that will be my next project. For now though, check valve gaps, all bolts, and go fly.
I am also going to see what sort of state the N01 rocker areas are in with regards to lube. I really would like to see more lube in there....that will be my next project. For now though, check valve gaps, all bolts, and go fly.
11-01-2016, 05:44 PM
#971
What Ray told me yesterday is that he gets $285.00 for the FG60R3 modification to the intake manifold. Additionally, he quoted $45.00 for a three-pin thrust washer mod to reduce the slippage on the prop. This requires a special puller to install. He installs/sells the Keleo ring for the same price, $185.00, as Keleo. $38.00 covers return Fedex insured shipping, but I suspect that is in the lower 48 states. The mods include Ray running the engine for a 30 minute break-in/adjustment period.
A note on the Keleo ring that Ray sells... what Ray said is that Kelvin makes a version of the FG60R3 ring that has the same tubing size as the Keleo FG84R3 ring. It gives a lower exhaust note and much better performance, according to Ray, than the smaller tube version. At least, this is what I understood Ray to say. He highly recommends Kelvin's ring.
I am thinking of going this route, as it would be nice to have it ready to go, requiring only minor onsite tweaking.
11-01-2016, 06:50 PM
#972
Originally Posted by slither;[URL="tel:12273325"
12273325[/URL]] ...I am thinking of going this route, as it would be nice to have it ready to go, requiring only minor onsite tweaking.
Wasn't aware of the large tube version of the FG-60 ring, but if I were to do again, would prolly go with the Saito designed titanium ring
11-01-2016, 08:28 PM
#974
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Slither, does RE require the original intake plenum that he then mods, or does he sell a replacement? Being based in Dubai means that shipping would be a problem sending engines to and fro....would prefer to buy one outright. Interesting is his take on the Keleo. I have two of them, and noticed a slight difference in angles of the feeder pipes, but have not measured to see if there is any difference in the pipe size of either feeders or main ring. Will look into it.
I notice that the saito ring uses the 90 degree angle pipes that you would use with the stock pipes. This would allow for better fitment and reduce any stress on welds and cylinders. If the keleo one is out by a tiny amount, it would put side pressure on the welds and the cylinder. Might look into a swap, just to try it. I am less and less interested in an exhaust note than I am on a reliable engine.
Scuba, I cannot find the instructional video on the keleo fitment, could you send me a link? ETA - Disregard previous, was stuck on their old site, found it.
11-01-2016, 11:56 PM
#975
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