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Rcexl sensor problems

Old 10-06-2015, 01:07 PM
  #51  
CARS II
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Originally Posted by kmeyers View Post
Cars ll

Please continue to pay close attention to details.

I have been using Rcxel sensors for years. Just like any company today they might have vendor problems. They are not "known to be useless". Known to be useless is a pretty hard phrase.

I have bought hall effect ICs sensors from electronics stores and made my own years ago. But lately I use those being discussed in this thread. The only problems I have had was with a batch of CRRC Pro sensors that the + and signal wires were crossed, lucky me that cost a handful of hair I couldn't afford.

You should know though that bcchi is the founder of C&H Ignitions and has been involved in the development of almost all the ignitions being discussed here.

Unless you have the ability to check the spark @ RPM this method of timing shows you the timing at full advance. Inside the module a calculation of low RPM retards the subsequent sparks until a RPM that changes the calculation is reached. My meaning here is that unless you see the running at 2000 rpm timing at 4 degrees and the 8000 rpm at 46 degrees the timing that you see in a single slow counterclockwise rotation may be misleading. I no longer have an Oscilloscope to check these points.

I believe this thread maybe going on to long for a sticky unless more technical data is added so that no misinformation is presented that might permanently damage one company.

My .02
I will consider your suggestions regarding my postings here, I may have come a little to strong with my comments ( I actually was thinking about that last night ) I apologize to you and specially to Bcchi for that, I have a CH ignition on my BME 61 Twin and I love it for its readability and for sure I do not want to damage a company's reputation.

What I'm looking for here is more info on the subject and want those that are more experienced with this type of problems to post any info that my give us a clarification to what can we do to understand and fix it if needed.

You yourself posted valuable information that is helping us to understand what is going on with the sensors.

Form now on I will stay off and will continue reading the posting from those that have the experience on the subject.
Old 10-06-2015, 04:12 PM
  #52  
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I will repeat what I stated, PTE 36 ignition units fire the spark plug when the sensor first passes the magnet not when it passes across the magnet. This in not a function of the sensor but how the ignition unit works. This is very easy to demonstrate by simply removing the spark plug and powering the ignition module and watching the spark plug fire. Turning the crankshaft slowing, it is easy to tell which side it fires on. I have spent a bit of time analyzing these ignition systems and have strong background in electronics with decent test equipment to back up my observation. If one rocks the crankshaft back and forth across the magnet, a good system will fire in either direction. I have see 1 sensor from CRRC engine that would not . The replacement worked as expected. Timing adjustment is very limited by the sensor mounting slots. I measured only 6 degree difference from stop to stop on DLE 30.
Old 10-06-2015, 04:20 PM
  #53  
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The average RC modeler does not care what makes something work, we just want to buy a product that works. If a company sales a product that does not work as designed and intended, then that company sucks. I just wanted to know to time my DLE 30, and what are the problem signs of a bad ignition system. My .02 cents

Thanks
Rich
Old 10-06-2015, 05:04 PM
  #54  
w8ye
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Originally Posted by BigD_S2K View Post
"If one rocks the crankshaft back and forth across the magnet, a good system will fire in either direction."
Every time you make and then break the power connection to the coil you will get a spark.
Old 10-06-2015, 05:56 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by BadAzzMaxx View Post
Bill
PM me your shipping address.

Milton
3420 Chandelle Blvd,Riverton Wy 82501
Old 10-06-2015, 06:00 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by CARS II View Post
I will consider your suggestions regarding my postings here, I may have come a little to strong with my comments ( I actually was thinking about that last night ) I apologize to you and specially to Bcchi for that, I have a CH ignition on my BME 61 Twin and I love it for its readability and for sure I do not want to damage a company's reputation.

What I'm looking for here is more info on the subject and want those that are more experienced with this type of problems to post any info that my give us a clarification to what can we do to understand and fix it if needed.

You yourself posted valuable information that is helping us to understand what is going on with the sensors.

Form now on I will stay off and will continue reading the posting from those that have the experience on the subject.
Sorry, I must be getting old and crabby.
BCCHI
Old 10-08-2015, 07:57 AM
  #57  
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Cars II, you have attracted some of the finest model gas engine guys of the Internet to your thread.
Old 10-08-2015, 10:57 AM
  #58  
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Isn't that awesome! I'm getting to know them over the phone, I'm very happy that they have decide to participate in the discussion.

Their knowledge and opinions are very much appreciated.

Thank you guys ( from a Newbie on gas engines )

Last edited by CARS II; 10-18-2015 at 11:12 AM. Reason: Still learning how to spell :)
Old 10-08-2015, 07:35 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by w8ye View Post
Every time you make and then break the power connection to the coil you will get a spark.
Some Ignitions will fire once when you turn the batt switch on.Not every time,just depends how the SCR sets when high voltage comes up.
this why we say stay stay clear of the prop or grasp it firmly when turning on the Ignition.There is really no power connection to the coil untill you fire the SCR.You can test the ignition by shorting the white and black wire going to the hall sensor,when you brake this connection the ign should fire once.Still does not mean for sure Hall sensor will trigger the Ign.Just use a horse shaped wire cut from a paper clip to short white and black wire in Hall sensor leaad coming from the ign box.DO NOT short black and red wire will get hot and you will let the smoke out.There should be batt voltage on the red wire and slightley less then batt voltage on the white wire.If no voltage on the white wire there is a Ign problem.Of course this is done with the Ign switch on.The Hall switch and Ign testor that RCEXL sells works fine if you can figure out his instructions.If you get one spark when you turn the Ign on does pretty much mean the Ign is working.But some Igns will not spark every time off and on.You should not get a shock when doing thses tests but no guarantees
BCCHI Tired old CH guy..
Old 10-12-2015, 11:55 AM
  #60  
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I run the 35 last Friday, I reinstalled the RC Extreme sensor an installed a new Bowman's ring, it took about 20 min to get it going, when I finally got it to run I burned about half of a tank on the ground then it was ready for a flight, the flight was non eventful, the engine run excellent during the entire flight, after I let it cool down for about half hour I run it on the ground again, I got to the point ( this is where I wanted it to be ) where I flip the prop once to get it to start, did this about 15 times.

I'm very happy how this engine is running now.

Thank you to all the members that are participating on this thread for their comments and suggestions.

Last edited by CARS II; 10-12-2015 at 03:24 PM.
Old 10-12-2015, 03:21 PM
  #61  
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I was so busy over the weekend that until today I had a chance to post about my trip to the flying field on Friday, no one was there to help me video the ground run and the flight but I manage to get some using a small stand that came with the camera.

This weekend I'm planning to do the same trip to the flying field but this time the engine will have Adrian's sensor ( CH Ignitions ) I'm so confident that it will do just as expected that it will stay on the DLE 35 permanently.
The videos will take a little longer to edit to show just the relevant shots for both sensors.

I like to thanks Adrian for Sending me the two CH sensors at no cost to me, I will put them to good use since I see another DLE 35 coming my way soon

Last edited by CARS II; 10-13-2015 at 05:06 AM.
Old 10-12-2015, 05:15 PM
  #62  
CH Ignitions
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Hi Guys, I was not aware of all this back and forth here.
I thought that the system will notify me when is a reply. Any way I look at the video that Carlos did and...I think I may know what the issue could be .
Not sure but it could happen. I seen someone do not remember the name talk with JIM at rcxel...I am not aware of anyone one with that name at rcxel in china.
Couple years back Liang and I tried to come up with a dual output sensor as we need it for multi-cylinder CDI, and we used a Allegro SMT HES.
I did not know what sensor the DLE engine here was equipped with.
The "Bug" as Bill calls it that I use is a Allegro part and I get it here from DigiKey , Newark and is a continuous time switch I know that Rcxel used the same for a long time. Now that I seen on Carlos video ...this is a molded sensor that they make in house as I know they bought a small plastic injection machine and I know was used for dual output sensor. The "bug" use to make this sensor I think is same part, after wires are manually attached then is gets molded. I CAN NOT SAY the reason, maybe in molding process some of the chips may get an internal electronically fault that will not make them to total failure and will still test OK on the tester, maybe the hot plastic may have something to do with... and now you may say; how it test good and be bad...well I tell how I test them . I have a flywheel with magnets and I spin it with a small motor and a tachometer. Once my wife Camelia solders the wires to the sensors and shrink tube is shrunk then I connect it and I hold it above the magnetic field and I see the LED light, RPM and all is good. Some times I manual flag it and the buzz and light comes on. Not to make an excuse but it is possible not to notice when you test them to spark on the wrong edge when you make hundreds of them a day. I do not make as many as Rcxel and some times with SIP3 case as I sent to Carlos...I find some dead ones.Could be also a batch that was made not up to standard. Also they can be marked and be counterfeit....
Timing IT IS NOT 45-50 BTDC, it should be 28-30BTDC.
Carlos I did not know that you have molded SMT sensor, I would of sent you casing also. I thought you can take the wedge out and just swap the sensor.

NOTE:

Anyone in USA and Canada that encounters issues with RCXEL sensors contact me for a free replacement.
other than USA and Canada you will pay only Shipping around 6USD

Contact me @ chignitions@gmail.com or call 561-927-6171

Thanks
Adrian

Last edited by CH Ignitions; 10-12-2015 at 05:27 PM.
Old 10-12-2015, 06:56 PM
  #63  
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Good post Adrian
Old 10-16-2015, 03:41 PM
  #64  
kalps
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Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
It should be mentioned that the sensor sold by RC Extreme Power exhibits none of the problems associated with many of the RCexl sensors. Further, it is adjustable in two directions so a "sweet spot" above the magnet is easy to find. By sweet spot, I mean the size of the area above the magnet where the sensor will trigger. This area is much larger on the RCXP sensor than it is one the RCexl one. If an RCexl sensor exhibits problems, I have found no way to resolve that problem other than replacement. No adjustment or spacing will resolve the problem.

I'm sorry to say I have not tried the CH sensors for this application so I don't know how they act. There have been zero complaints about them though so I'm assuming they are similar to the RCXP sensors.

While this seems to be a common problem on some DLE engines, it is not limited to DLE. Many other engines that use the very popular RCexl ignition also suffer from this same sensor problem. If your engine has any of the following problems: is hard to start by hand, wants to kick back when starting, has poor acceleration regardless of how you adjust the carb and / or it has a persistent high speed miss, you may have the problem described in this thread.

Guys, we're talking about less than a $10.00 fix here that makes the difference between a great running engine and a door stop.
Can an you kindly suggest the link and do I have to do any mods to change the sensor to a DLE35RA?

thanks you
Old 10-16-2015, 04:11 PM
  #65  
CH Ignitions
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One of the things with those sensor is the sensitivity.
Try to put something in between the sensor and crank case, 0.5-1mm and time it again.
The problem should go away.
I need one of those problem sensors, Carlos please send me yours.
I think that that is the SMT version.
For several good months Rcxel do not use the SMT sensors any longer .
I talk with Liang couple days ago and I made him aware of all this.And he wants me to take care of all RCxel related issues, warranty of units or any other complains. They all going to be replaced with CH units USA made...on the kitchen table each one by hand...by me and my wife.
They use the same sensor I use for the last 4 years and Bill for....LONG, LONG time, after the Panasonic chips become obsolete.
A1104 is the part number , go ahead google it and buy it on your own if you want to.
The adjustable sweet spot is rcxel part and it is good when you have to make some hard conversions.
Klaps,
send me your address at chignitions@gmail.com, I will send you a replacement. Before that please go ahead and try what I suggested, increase the space between magnet and sensor.

Thanks
Adrian
Old 10-16-2015, 04:16 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by CARS II View Post
Mike
I did as you suggested, I inserted a marked dowel through the spark plug hole to ID TDC but found the piston stopper technique more accurate. This been the first time for me timing an engine I wanted to be as accurate as possible, I also confirmed that the piston stopper technique is accurate by checking that the piston was at TDC via the spark plug hole.

From now on this is how I'm going to time all my future gas engines.

How owe do you make a piston stopper? Length? Sorry my first gas engine and have no clue with timing(DLE35RA)

Thanks
Old 10-16-2015, 04:20 PM
  #67  
kalps
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Originally Posted by av8tor1977 View Post
INDIOMIKE, (and everyone):

The "Positive Stop" method eliminates that "rock" at top dead center that you speak of in your post. That rock can be several degrees and if not accounted for can throw your timing setting off enough to make a difference.

The Positive Stop method splits that "rock" precisely in half and when you set up your degree wheel using that method, you can be assured that when the degree wheel indicates zero, you are truly at top dead center. Using other methods, you will more likely than not be off on your settings. This is not some obscure method invented for model engines by some amateur. It is a tried and true method used by engine builders of ALL types of engines, especially race engine builders, all over the world for precise checking and setting of valve timing events, ignition settings, etc., etc.

Further, while your method of just looking at the magnet/sensor positioning may work as a very general, "down and dirty" field check of the timing to see if the timing has slipped, it should never be used to initially set the timing. There are just too many variables with that method, such as magnet strength, magnet to sensor gap, sensor specific characteristics, magnet diameter, etc., etc. to just rely on a visual aspect of the sensor/magnet locational relation to set the timing. You need to know when the spark ACTUALLY occurs, and where TDC REALLY is to properly set the timing. It only takes a few minutes to do it correctly.

The difference between a great running engine that is a pleasure to use, and a "so so" engine or a "dog" is in the details.

AV8TOR

What at is a positive stop?

thanks
Old 10-16-2015, 04:21 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by kalps View Post
Can an you kindly suggest the link and do I have to do any mods to change the sensor to a DLE35RA?

thanks you
There are two common sources of known good sensors. These are: Milton at RC Extreme Power and Adrian at CH Ignitions. Here are the links:

http://www.rcextremepower.net/ignitions.html

http://www.ch-ignitions.com/

While I have used the sensor from RC Extreme Power, I have not used the one supplied by CH though I have several of the older CH ignitions. Both are excellent companies and likewise, both have participated in this thread.

I have attached photos of the RC Extreme Power sensor, also known as the RCxp sensor. This shows exactly how the sensor comes out of the package. The second photo shows just the small Hall sensor attached to the end of the cable. You will have to polarize and assemble the sensor into its holder then assemble that holder into the curved mounting bracket. The bracket exactly fits DLE and many other engines. I assembled the last one I did using rubberized and thin CA and the whole process from package to engine took less than 20 minutes with maybe another 20 minutes to drag out the necessary parts to time the engine. This is a remove the old sensor and install the new one sort of project. You will have to time the engine.

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Old 10-16-2015, 05:19 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by CH Ignitions View Post
One of the things with those sensor is the sensitivity.
Try to put something in between the sensor and crank case, 0.5-1mm and time it again.
The problem should go away.
I need one of those problem sensors, Carlos please send me yours.
I think that that is the SMT version.
For several good months Rcxel do not use the SMT sensors any longer .
I talk with Liang couple days ago and I made him aware of all this.And he wants me to take care of all RCxel related issues, warranty of units or any other complains. They all going to be replaced with CH units USA made...on the kitchen table each one by hand...by me and my wife.
They use the same sensor I use for the last 4 years and Bill for....LONG, LONG time, after the Panasonic chips become obsolete.
A1104 is the part number , go ahead google it and buy it on your own if you want to.
The adjustable sweet spot is rcxel part and it is good when you have to make some hard conversions.
Klaps,
send me your address at chignitions@gmail.com, I will send you a replacement. Before that please go ahead and try what I suggested, increase the space between magnet and sensor.

Thanks
Adrian
Adrian,

Thanks for all your hard work regarding this problem! Adrian, you are the man and the first to bring any word directly from Rcexl regarding this issue.

I read your post regarding increasing the spacing between the magnet and sensor and already being in the shop, I dug out my bag of double spark sensors. Set them up on an ignition for testing and started washering the sensor away from the magnet on a DLE 61 that was also sitting in front of me. As I increased the distance, the double spark was less frequent but it was still there all the way until the sensor was spaced too far away from the magnet to trigger it at all. With that in mind, I don't believe that spacing will resolve the problem on the sensors that exhibit the problem. I've had (3) known bad sensors now that exhibit the double spark.

Awhile back, I scoped the output pulse waveform from one of the bad sensors but sadly, I neglected to take a photo of it. I could draw an approximate example though I'm sure some of the detail would be lost in my memory. I could give you enough though so you could see where the problem is coming from. Its very difficult for me to believe the Rcexl factory has not experienced this problem or that they have not been overwhelmed with complaints. For my new engines, I just test the new sensors and replace as needed though every new sensor I have purchased in the last two years has exhibited the problem. Older ones are 100% fine and I bought my first Rcexl ignition shortly after they became available. The problem sensors drove me a bit crazy until I came across what the problem was and I believe it was suggested by or at least passed on by Milton.
Old 10-16-2015, 05:57 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by CH Ignitions View Post
One of the things with those sensor is the sensitivity.
Try to put something in between the sensor and crank case, 0.5-1mm and time it again.
The problem should go away.
I need one of those problem sensors, Carlos please send me yours.
I think that that is the SMT version.
For several good months Rcxel do not use the SMT sensors any longer .
I talk with Liang couple days ago and I made him aware of all this.And he wants me to take care of all RCxel related issues, warranty of units or any other complains. They all going to be replaced with CH units USA made...on the kitchen table each one by hand...by me and my wife.
They use the same sensor I use for the last 4 years and Bill for....LONG, LONG time, after the Panasonic chips become obsolete.
A1104 is the part number , go ahead google it and buy it on your own if you want to.
The adjustable sweet spot is rcxel part and it is good when you have to make some hard conversions.
Klaps,
send me your address at chignitions@gmail.com, I will send you a replacement. Before that please go ahead and try what I suggested, increase the space between magnet and sensor.

Thanks
Adrian

Hi Adrian


i tried with with the spacing and there was no luck. I also got a universal hall sensor and no go too. I can only magage to get 28 ccw / 46 cw

thanks
Old 10-17-2015, 06:25 AM
  #71  
CH Ignitions
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@ Truckracer,

The communication with Rcxel is hard even for me and is not that they do not care, it is the language barrier.
They use google translate and many times the sentence come out without meaning and have to read it several times and try to switch
and put words in order, have to use simple words and nothing fancy.
The SMT sensor has been discontinued and are using a SIP 3 sensor.
I do not use them as I make my own so I can not say issues went away.
The spacing was a solution to make it less sensitive .
Truckracer...do one more test...get a 10-15-22 K resistor and solder between red and white wire. this should decrease the sensor sensitivity.
Or someone can send me one of those engines with problems, I want to look at it also and see it and hope to find more details about issue.

@Klaps, I got your email. Look at this video, it will show you a piston stop and a timing procedure the way I do it.
Also I talk about the sensors types and timing....30min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTwyptJpJL0
Thanks
Adrian
Old 10-17-2015, 01:50 PM
  #72  
All Day Dan
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Here's what a piston stopper looks like. Dan.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/piston-s...2-80t-zen20005
Old 10-17-2015, 05:23 PM
  #73  
w8ye
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I've made piston stops from a old spark plug with a dowel or stick epoxied into it.

This degree wheel will blow up to around 8". Glue it to a piece of light ply.

Ignore the phone number???
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Last edited by w8ye; 10-17-2015 at 06:01 PM.
Old 10-17-2015, 08:26 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by CH Ignitions View Post
@ Truckracer,

The communication with Rcxel is hard even for me and is not that they do not care, it is the language barrier.
They use google translate and many times the sentence come out without meaning and have to read it several times and try to switch
and put words in order, have to use simple words and nothing fancy.
The SMT sensor has been discontinued and are using a SIP 3 sensor.
I do not use them as I make my own so I can not say issues went away.
The spacing was a solution to make it less sensitive .
Truckracer...do one more test...get a 10-15-22 K resistor and solder between red and white wire. this should decrease the sensor sensitivity.
Or someone can send me one of those engines with problems, I want to look at it also and see it and hope to find more details about issue.

@Klaps, I got your email. Look at this video, it will show you a piston stop and a timing procedure the way I do it.
Also I talk about the sensors types and timing....30min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTwyptJpJL0
Thanks
Adrian
Hi Adrian.
Milton sent me a couple of the double fire hall sensors .They did fire twice on all Ignitions I tested them on/ Have not had time to do any R&D on this.Xu Liang is not using the Alegro bug.Maybe he has changed.
Yes Communicating with XU liang can be a little problem.I worked with him enough that we could usually come to understanding.
BCCHI Tired OLD CH guy.
Old 10-18-2015, 11:03 AM
  #75  
CARS II
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These are my timing tools, one set for the DLE 35 and one set for the BME 61 twin Cylinder.
The piston stopper has to be a little longer than the spark plug in order for it to touch the top if the piston when it is on its way to the top.


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Last edited by CARS II; 10-18-2015 at 12:24 PM.

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