I haven't owned a DA engine, but have 4 DLE engines. are the DA engines worth the extra? I'm looking around 50cc-60cc size range can you please give imput on your experience?

I have owned both a DA 50 and a DLE 55. I liked the DA much better. The DLE always ran, produced the same power as the DA but was more difficult to get tuned well and had a nasty high frequency vibration that I could never get rid of. I also have a DA 150 that is serial #257 that has well over 2,000 runs on it. IMO yes the DA is well worth the additional money IF you are looking towards refinement and longevity.

I will let others rave about the legendary DA customer service.

The DA customer service is good enough that few people repair their own DA's and you see few spare parts for sale on the Internet.

I no longer answer this type of question as any answer just reflects the bias of the person answering the question.

We're lucky today to have a wide variety of engines that can provide excellent service and I own engines from both the so called premium vendors and the established Chinese vendors. I never buy any product when it first appears on the market but prefer to wait until the bugs are well worked out before considering a purchase. When browsing the forums, I prefer to ignore bad comments from inexperienced users but value comments from those with an established record .... those who know what they're talking about. With those few comments, I'd suggest a user has to make up his own mind regarding whether the premium engines are worth the extra $$ or whether the lower cost alternatives are a good way to go. Yes, I've owned several DA engines over the years but currently the remaining DA is a 100 twin which is certainly a very good engine.

VV is having a sale 12% off there DLE's now.That brings the price of a 61 to 400.00 complete,verses 650.00 plus muffler for DA.If you compare the DA and DLE 60's,the DA will spin the same prop maybe the most 100- 200 rpm more.But it won't be as smooth running.DA may run longer without being rebuilt.I have two DA's and three DLE's all of the DLE's have been rebuilt.One DA had been totally rebuilt after the cylinder base bolts broke and I never had the cylinder off that engine.I like both that's been my experience with them.If your a engine guy and like to do your own work DLE makes sense.I never tried but can you buy DA engine parts and work on them yourself?
I should say to that DA did a complete rebuild on my engine and the only thing they reused was the cases at 0 cost for me with a engine that had a LOT of time on it.

Just bought some parts for a DA-100 twin a few weeks ago. They have and sell parts. Great service if you need it too.

AV8TOR

Wow thanks a lot I ask a simple question. My club is mostly electric with a few glow guys, I am the only gas guy and I learn from these forums. I am building a nice plane and am trying to figure out what power plant to use.

I hope you didn't think I was implying anything negative towards you for asking the question. Rereading my response, I see where I could have explained things a bit more. I did answer your question towards the end of my response.

The problem is that a question like yours usually just starts a brand war between a bunch of brand loyal fan boys where you never get a real answer. Anyone that provides an honest, to the point answer is often chastised for expressing their opinion even when they support that opinion with real world results.

I would add to my original comments that for me, in most cases I prefer DLE over DA. I work on my own engines and don't rely on warranty (rarely required anyway) or service centers for repairs. This works well with DLE engines as the parts are easily obtained when needed. Every DA engine I have owned has required at least one trip back to the factory for service. They are the best at service and offer an extremely reliable and economical service facility. In most cases, it is easier and cheaper to return a DA engine for service than to repair it yourself. Both DLE and DA engines are very good with DLE being in the Ford / Chevrolet league where DA is in the luxury class.

As I said before, every person has to evaluate their own situation and decide which engine brand or brands is the best for them. This mostly comes with time in the hobby as relying on others for advice will often send you astray as their situations are often different than yours. I hope I explained myself a bit better than before ... not sure though.

TR,

Im curious re your DLE=ford/Chevy vs. DA=luxury comment. What criteria are you using? Is it power, machining and casting quality, field manners, etc, etc.

Reputation and perception mostly! Like with cars, paying more doesn't necessarily buy you more but some brands seem to represent a greater status, etc. Perhaps a better comparison could have contrasted a Ford / Chevy type of engine to some kind of finicky sports car.

Overall I think the DA is a higher quality engine from a metallurgy, machining and support standpoint. Castings can be pretty nice on DLE engines these days so I'm not sure I'd say there is much difference there ... except perhaps for the alloys used. DLE machining seems quite adequate these days. Some DLE engines run better than some DA engines and some the other way around. Likewise some DA engines are real shakers ( I suspect higher effective compression) where their DLE counterpart runs quite smooth. Field manners are really pretty much the same and not unlike most of the better engines these days. Ignitions and carburetors often dictate how an engine will act at the field and well, both of these brands have very similar and well developed parts in this area. Actually I shouldn't even suggest one is better or worse than the other .... they are just different, kinda like comparing women. Perhaps personal attitude determines how a person gets along with a particular brand. If he thinks its junk it probably will be. If he thinks its the best engine brand on earth, the experience may reflect that.

Enough rambling ... not sure I answered the question.

Matt, I would have to say yes to all of the above. Of the 4 DA engines I have owned they are ran very smoothly, very reliable and satisfied my picky needs. By comparison the one DLE that I owned and the last 3W I owned fell short of my expectations. In the past when I was competing on more a regular basis I had a relationship with DA and got news straight from Dave Johnson. I know how much R&D they put into their engines. That doesn't always mean they get it 100% right during the early life of a new engine but they always back what they send out the door. Any improvements made on the engine are installed on all engines out in the world free of charge. I can't say any other manufacturer does that. I remember talking to Dave at the 2002 TOC when Chip was running the 200. He was very concerned about the crank holding together. These days over 75% of IMAC advanced and unlimited pilots are using the 200. At least in my region that is. I guess you could consider me bias to DA but that's only because they earned my loyalty.

TR and Shawn,

Thanks for the explanations. I have never owned a DA but own several DLEs. I've been considering buying their 35cc basis what I've read in Flying Giants comparison to the OS GT33. The OS is easily stronger than every other 30 to 40 cc engines I've tested, but have not tested the DA35. If the 35 hauls the same props as the OS its a powerhouse. But since I have several 33s already not sure I want to spend the time and effort to learn things I don't really need and probably won't use. I don't know.....I may buy it and play with it anyway; I can always sell I suppose

I have a DLE 55 and a DA 85 that I'm flying the heck out of. Both engines run great and have given me great service. My only complaint is the DLE bites. I'm never been bitten by my DA. I don't know if I'm right but the DA ignition retards the timing until the engine comes up to speed. I don't thing the DLE does. This makes for an engine that if you are not careful will kick back. The answer is simple. I use a Chicken stick on the DLE and a heave glove on the DA. Would not sell one to buy the other.

Baffler, the DA ignition requires a minimum RPM in order to fire, the DLE does not. I suspect that if you retard the timing on your DLE a couple degrees by moving the sensor counter clockwise while looking at the engine from the front it will stop kicking back.

+1 on the timing.

The 55 shouldn't bite unless you really give it a limp wristed flip.

bafflerback, the Rcexl ignition used on the DLE does retard for starting but you have to flip the prop briskly to activate the retard. If flipped slowly, the ignition will fire with full advance (the static timing point).

Legendary Desert Aircraft SERVICE

I am in the service business. We are constantly measured on the quality of our service. As a matter of fact, there is a universally recognized measure of customer service known as ‘NPS’ or “Net Promoter Score” - NPS relies upon the results of a single question: “Would you recommend (fill in blank) service to a colleague? The respondent must provide a rating, from 1 to 10. A rating of 9 or 10 is a “Promoter;” a rating of 7-8 is a “Neutral;” anything below that is a “Detractor.” THIS is NOT a cake walk!
How many times have you been surveyed and given a 10? Most folks assume a rating of 8 is pretty darn respectable, but an 8 won’t elevate the company into the ranks of an Apple or Harley… The measure asks for FAR more than “Are you a satisfied customer?”… A high NPS score reflects on legions of enthusiastic, LOYAL supporters of the product! Apple and Harley Davidson have consistently high NPS scores,; as you can imagine, the users of those products are fiercely LOYAL to the brand!

Desert Aircraft, makers of premium quality gasoline engines, has always been high on my list of companies that stand behind their products, but they go further than that. DA ultimately does THE RIGHT THING when it comes to customer service, regardless of the circumstances.
Yet another case in point:

I was examining my DA70 twin recently and found that the right cylinder was literally COOKED! Btw: WORD TO THE WISE.. If you are shopping for a used gasser, specifically a DA… IF the cylinders have a pinkish hue? The engine has been over-heated! Put your wallet in your pocket and RUN (don’t walk) AWAY!

My first indication that all was not well with the engine was several times it sagged while flying my Mr. Mulligan. It was not over-propped or too lean, so I just assumed it was still breaking in. It never quit and never sounded strange or labored at any other time. It idled and transitioned like a DA—excellent. But after several flights when I examined the engine closely, I could see the right spark plug cap internals had literally been turned to POWDER! And then the tell-tale pinkish coloring of the right cylinder indicating it had been over-heated, so I removed the engine to examine it more closely. A look inside the right cylinder exhaust port revealed severe ‘pitting’ on the top of the piston!

Well, I packed it up and sent it to DA. When it had been in their hands for a couple weeks, I called them about it. They were running behind on service due to their annual involvement in the Tucson Aerobatic Shoot Out. Their findings were inconclusive as the root-cause of the over-heating, but they suspected a faulty ignition. The engine was just outside of its warranty period, but they completely rebuilt it and replaced the ignition at NO CHARGE!
Desert Aircraft always installs any updates that may have been released since the purchase of the engine—no charge. Their rule of thumb is: ANYTHING they do to the engine that the owner did not request, is FREE. Now, there are exceptions… mis-use, abuse, wrong oil, wrong prop, wrong needle settings may void your warranty or their willingness to fix the engine at no charge, but it has been my consistent experience that DA always goes the extra mile for their customers, EVEN IF you aren’t the original purchaser of the engine.

Now, I am NOT going to talk down anyone else’s product, but GOOD LUCK getting that kind of service on your DLE (and I own a DLE) or other brand. When I phone DA, I can speak to the guy who built my engine or is repairing my engine.

In my book, Desert Aircraft gets an NPS score of 10… “Yes I would enthusiastically recommend DA service to a colleague!”
Richard Geertson

p.s. before I get labeled a "DA cheerleader" let me add that IF I compare the best 3W to the best DA, I would give the edge to 3W as far as overall quality, precision, and longevity. IF I were powering a plane where reliability was #1 and weight was no object, my choice would be ZENOAH. The "best" engine truly depends on the intended use, but there is no arguing the quality of DA service.

I am and old pilot but new to the gassers, so I loved the question here, I am looking into getting a DA 35, I do have a couple of evolution 33s a Dle 30 and a syssa 30 , but still wanting the DA, the gas size I have got is the 20 to 30 sized planes not sure yet if I will go any bigger, but the 30 size was a surprise!

All this discussion about Service is good to know. Why do the DAs need so much service? That is a concern

Where I fly there's probably more DA's than any other one brand. I've seen several have problems. They were all sent back to DA and the owners were happy.

Seen a few DL & DLE problems too. Either the owner or someone in the club repaired them.

I don't believe DA engines have any more problems than others. Their owners just seem to like to brag about the quality service though which is probably justified. That quality service is factored into the price though. When you're proud of a product you own, a bit of bragging can be in order from time to time.

Looking back at DA engines I've owned or had my hands on, different engines were sent back with bearing problems, reed / intake problems, ignition problems and one needed updating before it was ever run. All fixed at zero cost and as others have stated, various improvements were made while the engines were in for the requested repairs. Later on, I repaired a couple of DA 50s at different times. One needed a new ring because the old one was seriously eroded near the exhaust port and the other one needed a new reed cage / housing. Pretty much the same kinds of service parts and requirements all engines need from time to time so nothing special there.

Yes. I've been flying DA for since 2004-2005. Literally, thousands of flights between a DA100, several 150's, 170, 200 with 6-700 gallons through it. And helped dozens of guys at the field with them.

They are bullet proof. They are made and supported here in the states. They are worth every penny if you fly a lot. This is why you see 98+% of people competing in IMAC using them. They simply work. And if you have an issue, it's either taken care of or stupid cheap to fix.

maybe because DA's are worth repairing when necessary.

And other engines aren't worth maintaining?

I wouldn't go as far as to say that. I will say that most DA engines 100cc and larger are being used for IMAC. That means lots of use. When I was at the top of my game I was burning 5 gallons a week every week for 3 years. Then when somthing just wasn't quite right with fhe engine it was sent in although that didnt happen very often at all. Most of the Chinese engines are being used by sport pilots and IMO dont get tje same amount of hours and are not being judged at the same level. Example, most sport guys love their DLE 55 engines, I hated mine. Mainly because I was judging it to the same level as my DA 50.

Speedracer, we all have our favorite engines and companies. The DA-50 wasn't one of my favorites though the 100 is towards the top of the list though mine rarely gets flown these days. My experience with the 50 doesn't parallel yours at all and I found the DLE55 far superior in just about every area. My oldest 55 was new in early 2010 and has just completed its 6th full season and with a minimum of maintenance. I don't count flights or gallons consumed but it has flown a lot and runs as good or better today than it did when new. I simply couldn't ask for a better performing engine and like you, I'm pretty picky about my engines. It isn't as pretty as the DA50 but it gets the job done. By the way, I completely respect your opinions here in the forum.

Just so the DA fan boys don't get the wrong idea (it has to be spelled out by the way for some) I'm not downgrading or bad mouthing DA engines in any way in this thread. I could see a 70 twin in my future and a 35 would also be fun to experiment with and enjoy. Not interested in anything over a 120 these days as its just too much work to get the trailer out for transportation of the larger planes. if it doesn't fit in the truck, it rarely goes to the field.