I gess you can not say nothing bad about RC SHOWCASE OR YOU GET ERASED.

you bad boy!!!!

gjeffers,
It is unfortunate if this this happens. It defeats the purpose of an open forum. Cenorship doesn't work. The word always gets out. When the people are allowed to speak, both sides are usually presented. So it works out in the end.

Dave

Well this does happen and it probably happens more than you think. How many big banner ads do you see from them?

But I will say this happens to any thread that specifically bashes a company. You can't just come on here and bash a company.. but if you started a discussion that related to a certain product and wanted opinions on it then you would be ok.

There is a fine line between what is acceptable and what's not . It's pretty hard to pin point it and it also changes from mod to mod.

However if you are angry at a company and come here to vent you can pretty much be sure that thread will be deleted.

try again by just stating the problem you had and lets see what other people have to say and think of this company

I have figured out RCU and its Gestapo is usually more interested in protecting the hand that feeds them than letting the truth be heard. They use double-speak words like "vent" and "flame" to justify deleting some of the more interesting naratives their advertisers would rather not acknowledge and more likely prefer to ignore. No doubt this policy keeps the banker happy. I don't agree with it but then again I don't think believe anyone actually asked my opinion. I have experienced their editorial censorship in the past so I know how this works..........just use the site to benefit your own interests and if you have questions about policies or ethics issues of those in charge, the answers are the same the world over.........just follow the money
Hear no Evil---------See no Evil

CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW ???

--------------


In case no one noticed, this is a commercial enterprise. Expecting the owners to let you post negative information about one of their sponsors is being unreasonable. One must pay bills, or there is no RCU at all.

Since I didn't see your post, I cannot comment on it or its content.

If one wants to post something truly inflammatory and "tell it like it is", there is always the rec.models.rc.air newsgroup. I check that newsgroup first before logging into the commercial online forums. There, your only limits are the laws for libel and slander - if one has enough common sense to grasp the concept.

No, I'm not digging you or anyone in particular. Some folks truly have no idea concerning the amount of trouble they could get into if the libeled or slandered party was to take action against them.

I have dealt with RC Showcase several times and never had a problem of any kind with them. Your complaint would make interesting reading to me.


Ed Cregger

While there are occasional problems with almost any vendor, my dealings with RC Showcase have all been most satisfactory. There are a lot of ZDZ engines around here and I can't think of anyone I know around here who has not been able to obtain satisfactory service from RC Showcase. Sometimes it takes longer than you might like due to inventory available, or the nature of the problem as some are easier to solve than others.

While there are no doubt some people who have had situations that were not resolved to their satisfaction, problem solving is always a two way street. Sometimes the ability to resolve a problem has a lot to do with how you approach it and your own attitude...

Nobody reads it anyway.

(I realize this isn't the main point of the thread, but) You may be better off taking the problem to MSC. The prop does look like a not-so-good one. MSC will deal with you and make things right for sure.

The original complaint seemed to be about some imperfections on a MSC prop. This guy sounds like he works for NASA and expects everyone else's standard for quality to be the same. The wood selection has never been all that stringent in this industry and some props are dangerous because of it. I like to examine several props to pick the best piece of wood. It would be nice to get aerospace quality in our toys, human nature would prohibit it form happening for very long (too expensive).

Are you referring to the "Quality Control thread"? If so it was simply moved to the RCS Manufacturers Support Forum by another Moderator. Censorship I think not! A member had a problem with a product purchased from RCS, accordingly the Mod in question thought it best served the problem by presenting it directly to those involved.

RCU does not play favorites and single out and or censor derogatory posts/threads of paid advertisers. If the post/thread is articulate without bashing, name calling, factual as well accurate and placed in the appropriate forum they exist without intervention. Additionally only ONE such thread is permissible per member; period. Multiple posts are removed without malice.

This is my experience with MSC props, and I did not buy from RCS, they were bought from three other vendors and LHS's.
MSC makes them and sells to all approved retailers, then it is up to the retailer or MSC to correct any problems when they are contacted. Being tackful, state the problem and give them the chance to correct the issue, this has provided good results for me
on issues in the past. Then if this does not work then I would say let the hair stand on end.

And yes I still buy MSC.
Cost is right for a little bit of work.
Sizes are 26x10, 27x10, 30x10,32x10

Every prop I have bought, 5 MSC, 3 3W, 2 MENZ, I have needed to remove 1/32 to 3/32 inch of material from one side of the hub to balance hub section. Then needed to add weight (paint or thin CA) to the light blade or slight sanding on heavy blade. On two props (MENZ)One, I had to correct the blade length by 1/16 inch, balance hub , blades and the other prop it had a hole indent on each end where one had a split thru. vendor exchanged this one. On three 3W props, they required balancing hubs and blades.
I have had to do work on every large wood prop(larger than 22inch) I have bought from three makers so far. (MSC, 3W, MENZ).

From what I see from my experiences and observations, if you want perfection then buy a formed, balanced, pre drilled carbon prop(have not done this, just observed from a few buddies, 6 point balanced), every wood prop that I have bought needs work.
This is not to say all wood is bad or all carbon is good.
There is a compromize between cost and quality.
My budget has me buying some items that cost less-need some work and allowed me to buy a new radio to replace my old 9ZHPS after 12+years of service.


Just my experiences and observations.

You must not buy many large props. 20" or bigger and the problem was clear cote saging runs .EXTRA-NUT purchse them from RC SHOWCASE . AND AS FOR YOU MR. MODERATOR MGLAVIN YOU STILL CANNOT REPLY TO THE POST SO WHAT GOOD IS IT .......

I have only bought 10 props, 26inch or larger as indicated in previous post, I don't break them that often. I was posting my experiences and opinion on MSC and other props as well.
I would be happy if only the clear coat was the problem verses the wood removal I have needed to do on some of the ones I
have bought. Sanding clear coat is minor verses wood removal of 3/32 on the hub side to get the hub portion to balance.

I do agree with you the product should meet certain standards, what that is, is a open discussion I will pass on.

Hate to break it to you but its common that a company won't pay for shipping the item back to them, then they would end up paying 3 times... 2 there and once back.

Its rare for that to happen with any product.

Your LOUD obnoxious and antagonistic comment is less than articulate and on the edge IMO. Additionally your opening post is completely inaccurate, as I noted…

Since this thread is not about Gas Engines and borders on RCU policy that requires all threads/posts be on Forum specific topic any additional rhetoric will earn this thread the coveted thread closed status.

mglavin,
before this turns into a soup sandwich, let me set the story straight. My gripe is not with Mike Clemmens ( MSC ) or David Garrison ( RC Showcase ) , the finger is pointed directly at Mike Dooley
( RC Showcase ) which represents both of these companies. The problem is POOR CUSTOMER SERVICE on his part alone. Heres a lesson in customer service for all those confused with protocol.
Lets pretend i'm Mike Dooley and I recieved this e-mail about a product I sold to you;

Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:30:46 -0800 (PST)
From: "billy martin" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: MSC 22 x 8 QUALITY ??
To: "Stacey Wilson" <[email protected]>
Stacey,
being that this is my first MSC prop,in your opinion, is this standard quality on these props or did I just get one that snuck past quality control ??

Thanks,

Billy

pictures attached of the prop

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now then heres where customer service kicks in. My reply would be:

Billy,
that one did get past quality control. I am sending another MSC 22x8 prop to you today. Also in the box you will find a return label along with postage paid, for the return of the bad prop.
We appreciate your business and apologize for any inconvenience.

sincerley,

Mike Dooley

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is that what he did ? Nooo this is what I got in response to my e-mail:

Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 12:11:50 -0500
From: "Mike Dooley/RCS" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: MSC prop quality
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected]
Hi Billy,

Please contact Mike Clemmens at MSC ([email protected]) regarding the quality issue. If you are not satisfied and wish to return it for another brand (the new ZDZ brand wood props are very nice) we would be very happy to do so.

Thank You,

Mike Dooley

RC Showcase
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now then, did he answer my original question at all? NO!! Not even close. The man in charge of customer service is passing the buck and wants ME to do his job. And on top of that trys to sell me a different brand of prop! What I ordered was a MSC 22x8 prop, ( chosen after reading ALOT of good performance reports on the Brison 3.2 ) what I want is a MSC 22x8 prop!! What part of that is hard to understand?
By the way, I ordered this prop on Oct. 9th! So needless to say after a month of waiting patiently, I did not want to go on a wild goose chase with another company. So this was my response to Mike Dooley;



Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 17:44:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "billy martin" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Re: MSC prop quality
To: "Mike Dooley/RCS" <[email protected]>
Mike,
Thank you for your response, although it was not what I expected.
I find it hard to believe that your business is so good that you couldn't use another GOOD customer. I will NOT be contacting Mike Clemmens at MSC, that is YOUR job!! Many close games have been lost due to fumbles and you certainly dropped the ball in this one. So just sit on your hands on the sideline and watch the clock tick down knowing that you lost this game for the whole team!!! As for Mike Clemmens, he can contact me or defend the quality of his business on RCU. Drama is best played out in front of an audience, don't you think...

Good day sir,

Billy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After which I received this very considerate e-mail from David Garrison ;


From: "David Garrison" <[email protected]> View Contact Details Add Mobile Alert
To: [email protected]
CC: [email protected], [email protected]
Subject: Re: MSC prop quality
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 09:48:18 -0500
Mr. Martin:

I believe that you have misunderstood the intentions of Mike's repsonse
to
you. We have already contacted MSC Props (with our own pithy comments)
and
sent your pictures to them for comment. Mike was only suggesting that
you
may also do so if you wanted to add your weight to ours.

We still do not know what your desires are concerning the
return/replacement
of the subject propeller.

1)We can refund your money
2)We can send you another MSC prop
3)We can send you another brand prop (ZDZ , Bambula)


Please let us here from you!


Happy Landings

David Garrison
RC Showcase




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But before I could respond to David I get this work of art from you know who;


Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:18:06 -0500
From: "Mike Dooley/RCS" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: MSC prop quality
To: "'billy martin'" <[email protected]>
Good Grief Billy,

Yes, I HAVE CONTACTED Mike Clemmens already and ALREADY told him about your problem the very same day you emailed us!!!!.

As you can tell, IT WAS NOT INDICATED that I did not contact him.

Of course we would not leave it up to you!

What in the hell do you think we are doing here?

What gives you the right to make these assumptions?

I personally feel you are way out of line.

Why do you feel to make it a point to slam us so quickly?

Utterly ridiculous.

Please send back the MSC prop for a full refund including shipping IMMEDIATELY!!!

Mike Dooley

RC Showcase

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I thought about that for 4 or 5 days then responded with this to David;


Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:25:01 -0800 (PST)
From: "billy martin" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Prop Quality
To: "David Garrison" <[email protected]>
Mr. Garrison,
After Mike Dooleys last e-mail to me, I had to delay my response to you so that I could fully absorb just exactly what has taken place here. First of all my original e-mail was a very simple question;
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2006 14:30:46 -0800 (PST)
From: "billy martin" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: MSC 22 x 8 QUALITY ??
To: "Stacey Wilson" <[email protected]>

Stacey,
being that this is my first MSC prop,in your opinion, is this standard quality on these props or did I just get one that snuck past quality control ??

Thanks,

Billy

It was not an attack on RC Showcase or MSC Props. I did not ask for a refund,another prop, or a wild goose chase. I am not a whiner or a complainer and since the original purchase date was Oct. 9 2006, I don't believe my patience is at question here either. I chose this prop because of the reports of quality and performance. If this prop fairly represents those reports and my expectations and standards are just to high just say so and I'll add this prop to my pile of sub-standard rc products. I merely wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, and a chance for a fair response.
Just for your reading pleasure I submit Mike Dooley's last e-mail to me recieved just 30mins after yours;
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 10:18:06 -0500
From: "Mike Dooley/RCS" <[email protected]> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: RE: MSC prop quality
To: "'billy martin'" <[email protected]>
Good Grief Billy,
Yes, I HAVE CONTACTED Mike Clemmens already and ALREADY told him about your problem the very same day you emailed us!!!!.
As you can tell, IT WAS NOT INDICATED that I did not contact him.
Of course we would not leave it up to you!
What in the hell do you think we are doing here?
What gives you the right to make these assumptions?
I personally feel you are way out of line.
Why do you feel to make it a point to slam us so quickly?
Utterly ridiculous.
Please send back the MSC prop for a full refund including shipping IMMEDIATELY!!!
Mike Dooley
RC Showcase
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will be awaiting YOUR response..

Thanks

Billy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That was on Nov 10th. My first post on RCU was on Nov. 25th . Thats plenty of time for them to figure out a response. Haven't heard a word , so hear we are. Do I expect them to send me another prop
after all this? Nope. Am I expecting a refund? Nope. Can I fix this prop? Yep. But the SOB will have my name on it!! Also let me clarify a couple more things, I never said RCS wouldn't pay return shipping.
Also, the post "Quality Control" was posted in the RC Showcase support forum and was moved from there to the gas engine forum. Was this a waste of time? Only if it gets deleted. This is all in the name of keeping the standards acceptable & getting what you pay for. These props are $36.75 shipped to your front door. If I sold this on RCU, and you were the lucky buyer, would you complain and give me a bad rating? Probably so.
Are my standards to high? You decide. If we let these imperfections that are out in plain sight slide by without complaining, soon they will move to places you can't see and our planes will be breaking in half in flight! OH wait, they already are...
Do I work for NASA ?, someone asked. Nope, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Thanks to all.

Billy



[][][][sm=sad_smile.gif][sm=sad_smile.gif][][]

I maybe in error as to your original threads origin, but the time/date stamps are identical and the original QUALITY CONTROL thread is still up in the Gas Engine forum with a moved notation in the RCS Showcase forum. The fact is this thread was not “erased” as noted by another.

Sometimes the obvious is overlooked, in your case the prop likely wormed through QC and your original inquiry about same at RC Showcase was lost in an attempt to appease you.

That said, I’d take Mike up on his offer to return the prop for a full refund and hope a lesson was learned by all!

mglavin,
are your sure that was an offer? Sorta sounded like a demand to me.
I think at this point I just wanna FLY....

Billy,
What are you going to do with the prop? We have offered to replace it or give you a full refund and have heard nothing from you since.
I apologize if you misinterpreted my initial comments about contacting MSC directly.
I was simply offering you the opportunity to register your complaint directly with MSC as we have immediately following your initial email.
Obviously this has been blown way out of proportion and we wish to bring this to immediate closure.

looks like MSU likes to work thing out. I think that is a good thing. What about you

Mr. Martin,

As the owner of MSC Props, I would like to see this resolved as well, so I will jump in on this thread too.

For some reason, several attempts by RCS to contact us by email regarding this issue, failed. There seems to be some kind of ISP issue, but we are not sure exactly what happened.

I did finally receive the photos you sent to RCS, and I then spoke to Mike at RCS regarding this issue over the telephone. From our conversation, I was under the impression that RCS had resolved the problem your satisfaction, but apparently this is not the case.

The MSC Prop you received from RCS was not up to our usual standards, as there was a run in the clear coat. Somehow it did manage to slip through. Its an easy fix, [a bit of light sanding, and a bit more clear coat added] but you are correct, it should not be up to the customer to do this.

Id like to offer to send you a second prop at N/C, including shipping. You may keep the first prop if you wish, [we will gladly instruct you on how to repair the clear coat]or you may send it back to RCS for a refund, your choice.

Please let RCS and us know what you would like to do.

Thank you,

Mr. Clemmens,

I appreciate you taking time to answer my original question. Your response and business etiquette is well noted.
I hate the fact that a personal problem had to come to a public forum to find resolve, but under the circumstances I felt it was a necessary evil. Some people need to learn how to eat humble pie without getting it all over their face, ( You know who ). I learned at 5 or 6 , thanks to my dads boot, that an apology forced by the hand of others just doesn't have the same meaning. Hence the reason Mr.Dooley's
apology fell on blind eyes.
I accept your offer for the MSC 22x8 prop and look forward to exploring its performance on my 3.2 Brison. If I cannot purchase your props directly from you, please give me an alternative location.
From everything I've read about them, I know I'll be buying more.
Its hard to extend a warm handshake from 1300 miles away, but I feel you have accomplished that...


Thanks,

Billy