BillHarris

And from a 1999 Brison 4.8 Twin #9960...

Good discussion on oils.

--Bill

pe reivers

DA wants it? Change that to "DA wanted it". Now they advise Belray HR1 at 1:50
I have NO IDEA what made them change their mind.

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

So now a person can ask themself, Do I want to run an oil thats only good enough to run at 50 to 1 or an oil thats good enough to run at 100 to 1. Remember you can always add a little oil to the 100 to 1 mix but you can't dilute the 50 to 1.
At first there was only one or two manufacturers of synth. oil. For new companies to break into the Synth. market they have to do one of two things. Make an oil that is superior or make an oil that is cheaper. Don't know for sure but I'd tend to suspect the oils specing a lower ratio are either of less quality or already diluted (They buy from a manufacturer and dilute the product to obtain a profit). Thus I'll stick to my (in my mind) superior product. Having no idea and no real way of knowing what oil is ideal for how I tune my engines other than it's working for me, it's the near most expensive $78/gal, and it's the only one I've seen with the + at in it's Jasco rating.

Flyfalcons

Alta, equating a lower mix ratio oil to lesser quality is a pretty weak argument. There's a lot more that goes into the quality of oil than just the mix ratio. Stick with what your mind tells you - the facts say otherwise but as long as you are happy then good enough.

pe reviers, I just received my second DA last week, and sure enough the instruction manual still includes Amsoil 100:1 in the list of recommended oils.

pe reivers

Then there seem to be different instructions for the European sold engines, and the US sold engines???

@ Alta..,

Synthetics indeed have quality differences, depending on base stock just as much as the quality dino oils. One of the quality benchmarks is the ratio in which the oil can be mixed, and still do a decent job. This has to do with the property that lets the oil cling to metal surfaces. Let it cling too much, and it will be very hard to replenish the oild oil with new one. With dino oil, this process took about one hour engine running time, during which the engine ran worse when switching oils. With the best synthetics, this process may take up about 5 running hours.
Another quality benchmark is the range of allowed mixes. I would prefer an oil that can be mixed anywhere between 4 and 1 %, and then mix it at my 2.5% ratio that I like best for a nice and slippery wet engine.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Which is where two Belray products, Motul, and Redline fall into the lineup. The H1R can be mixed from 30 to 50-1, the MC-1 can be mixed from about 40 to 1 out to 100-1, with the Redline and Motul 800 variable from 40 to about 80-1.

Without debating which ratio or what oil is better for the job, I can certainly understand why people that sell engines would suggest 100-1 or greater ratios. Shoot, by the time it's worn out after hundreds of short run cycles you would be hard pressed to find the reason why.

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

What I'd really like to know is who makes what oil. That would end bunches of mine's better claims. I've bought my oil from a local hardware store in boxes of 50 one gal packets for about 15 years. In that time the boxes have said Poulan syn oil, Husky syn oil and it's name brand " ". I've always found the company's name in fine print on the box just to be sure. If I bought that same oil, doubled it's content and resold it as 50 to 1 mix, absolutely no one would know. Nor would it be a lie.
As fun as arguing the point is, it's kinda moot if you don't know who makes the oil you use.

So the thread keeps going. Mines better! Syn oils start with dino oil and they extract the good stuff and sell the leavings as "Penns oil"
Actually I just can't use Pennsoil because I was taught a long time ago that they get their oil from ash oil deposits back east and that oil comes out of the ground very dirty and gritty and full of ash. Maybe they get it real clean now but old habbits are hard to break.

Pe Whole industries are selling products that offer molecular bonding of lubricants to wear surfaces. Thats the prime reason for Syn oils. If the stuff is taking 5 hours to scuff off versus 1 and holding it's properties in the process to me that would indicate a 500% improvement. That alows 5 hours for new molecules to find a place in line to keep the process going.

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

I should have said diluted by half to make 50 to 1. This intelectual stuff twists the noggin. And SS you can't tell me yours aint twisted. No one in their right mind would work where you do

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Amsoil Saber 50:1 thru 100:1. I don't use it any more but have a some left over.

Flyfalcons

That's great RTK. Amsoil Sabre is designed for 100:1 but can be run richer. What does Amsoil 2000, MobileMX2T, Bel-Ray H1-R, and Red-line say?

pe reivers

It indeed works a bit like that, were it not, that wear faces have to wait a long time before they get fresh oil. In fact, they always run with dirty contaminated stuff which comes from the combustion by-products, like soot and ash. With the very high tenacy oils, this contaminated oil layer is not washed away, but sticks like glue to any metal surface, ready to catch more dust and grit without letting it go. To counteract this effect, extra dopes are needed to encapsulate the dirt particles, which reduce the lubricating properties of the oil. So extra dopes are needed again to provide emergency lubrication. These often are metal salts, which above a certain degree prevent the oil from getting the ashless label.

The Belray MC1 works like this:
It will not stay in suspension if more than 2% oil is present in the fuel. Most racers therefore mix it at 1:60 or 1:80. When the fuel passes the jets in the carb, part of the gas evaporates and the mix becomes supercritical. The suspended oil particle teams up with nearby oil molecule chains, driving out the gas liquid. By the time it hits a surface, it is pure, undiluted oil that will not be washed away by a gas mist. Only drawback is the low refreshment rate.

Bass1

I'm looking at a Mobile! Racing 2T bottle right now and all I see on the back pertaining to mix ratios is this " For use as a premix, follow manufactureres recommendations."

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Very interesting Pe.

pe reivers

I think so too. It took me a long time to get behind the truth of quality oils, and how they work in two strokes. Gordon Jennings was a good place to start. His work laid down a foundation which was a compilement of the knowledge of those days.
Also, the late great oil debate by Robert Verret makes good reading.
http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

I have the same bottle Bass. Mix it however you need. Following engine manufacturers guidelines would be a place to start. With experience adjust from there.

RTK An airplane engine is alway operating at 100% of throttle setting. That is imo severe duty. With their labeling Amsoil should be mixed at 50 to 1.

captinjohn

Another opinion....I think it is possible to wear out your eyes and fingers just trying to figure this oil data out....before you wear out any RC engines!!!!! Ya...Like how many engiens have you worn out???? Best Regards Capt,n

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

I have a copy of some of Gordon Jennings writings Pe. Good stuff

Ya gotta point captin, Mother Nature (the ground) usually wears my engines out for me I try to baffle well, set the needles correctly, run quality oil from the get go and have fun. Missing any one of those and you could be asking for it.

Altavillan--When I ran Amsoil it was mixed in the 70:1 range and seemed OK besides the hard deposits.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Worn out quite a few actually[8D]

pe reivers

I would have a few basic requirements for the oil of my choice. (Not brand specific)

Class label API-TC++ (air cooled engine oil, best of class, takes care of smoke, ash and a few other things)
Viscosity @ 100C >15 cSt (> means greater than, for best viscosity values in hot engine parts. This keeps bearings alive)
VI >150 (For low temperature fluidity)
Flash point >200°C (to keep oil in there where it gets hot, without it turning into vapour, or reverse engineering itself)
Mix ratio 2 - 4% or better still, 1 - 4%, (to mix with petrol at manufacturer recommendations)

Amsoil Dominator has these values:
class API TC (??OK?)
Flash point 92C (too low)
visc @ 100C 7.6 (too thin)
VI 156 (OK)
So it fails my requirements at viscosity and flash point.

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

Dang Pe, I'd almost got my mind wrapped around your last post and you did it again

Flyfalcons

If you are running your plane at 100% power all the time then you are either completely underpowered or are flying a racer. Having said that, I just got back from the motorcycle shop, where I was looking to buy some ashless for break-in on my new engine. While I didn't find any there, I did take notes on the available synthetic oils and their recommended mix ratios. These were all designed for 2-cycle use.

Honda HP2 100% synthetic 32:1 only
Motorex 2T "up to 50:1"
Spectra SX 100% synthetic 32:1 only
Bel-Ray H1R 30:1 - 50:1
Red Line Synthetic 16:1 - 100:1

As can be seen, not all synthetic oils are designed for use at 100:1 mix. This is why it's important to a) not make generalizations with regards to mix ratio and b) read the instructions on the bottle of the oil that you are using.

captinjohn

Very well put. Mix ratios and Hi speed neelle valve settings are most important. Not oil. capt,n

altavillan

My Feedback: (1)

UH would you plese re- read his post # 71 and let that poor old dead horse alone.

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

100% throttle all the time? Thats a new one. I have a glow nelson .40 on an F1 racer with no throttle, but its not gas. I suppose those big gas pylon planes do, but I dont know anyone running them.. If your flying around at full throttle all the time, you need to learn how to use your left hand (throttle control) BTW, a little known secret, that stick also controls the rudder..

pe reivers

may I add to this the ELF racing oil range? Quite excellent oils, but recommended at ranges from :
htx 909; 3-7%
htx 976; 3-4%

Both these oils meet my personal requirements, but are mixed at much higher ratios than many would dream of. They make it to that chequered flag for sure!

Personally, and because of availability, I run Putoline 959(2 - 4%), and may switch to putoline MX7 (1 - 3%) OR mhx CART2 (1 - 4%) of the later generation.