Columbo

My Feedback: (9)

Moved the C.G. back a little on mine and increased the high rate elevator throw some more. This plane flys and 3Ds as well as my 31% edge! The only thing easier to do on my 31% edge are torque rolls. But again, I have heard that caps in general require more stick movement to keep them in a stable torque roll. Edges are more neutral in torque rolls. I can do waterfalls now with this plane. Harriers, walls and parachutes are unbelievable...very stable. I got the pitch coupling all mixed out on knife edges. High alpha knife edges and knife edge spins are great also. Landing this plane harrier style is just as easy as normal landing as long as the wind isn't too gusty. The plane tracks well for precision flying also. The moki 2.10 is a great engine for this plane. Keeps it light.

Greg

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Greg, those are two lovely little girls with your plane - congratulations!

Can you tell me what props you're using with the Moki 2.1 and what other props you've tried and your opinions. I have the same Cap/Moki combo on order and wouldn't mind saving the $$$ trying 3 or 4 different props.

Thanks,

Columbo

My Feedback: (9)

luvbipes,

I have a pro-zinger 20X8. This prop works well for breaking in and for 3D. You might want to consider a 20X10 if you are into IMAC style flying once the engine is broken in. I have no problem with the zinger, but I've been told that Menz are better. Also, you will probably want to fly with the cowl off until the break in period is done. I ran about a gallon of fuel through mine on the bench before I flew the plane. I also installed some baffling and closed off the cowl opening opposite the engine for better airflow over the engine head. The Moki has been a great running engine, and so far I haven't dead sticked. I have about 3 gallons through it now and expect it to get even stronger. Runs great with 0% nitro and the fuel only costs around $6 a gallon at our local hobby store.

Greg

SunShyne

My Feedback: (68)

man talk about a juicy thread. I found myself staring at one at my LHS the other day but was afraid as I cant afford a gas engine. Now that some of you guys have flown it succesfully with the MOKI 2.10 I think im gonna buy myself a nice early Christmas present

I know the glow factor is gonna cost more $$ but I cant pony up the $500+ for a gasser so MOKi it is

LuvBipes

My Feedback: (4)

Thanks Greg, I hear what you say about the Moki. My 1.35 also took a good 40 mins on the bench before it was ready for flying.

vtsmx-DELETE

Luvbipes,

I don't have the 2.10 in the CAP (it's in an Extra) but I've used the Zinger Pro (because of local availability) 20x8 and Moki 20x8. The motor is still pretty new. The Moki prop seems to pull the plane better at least for sequence stuff, the Zinger gives better braking when landing. I've heard the NX prop from AirWild is a good prop for the money. $19.00 for the 20x8 or 20x10 2-blade. Am planning to try one soon.

vtsmx

AirWild link - http://www.airwildhobbies.com/

geneh-RCU

My Feedback: (6)

What motor mounts did every one use? We now have 4 flights on my sons ( what a great flying plane!) and on the last flight the motor mounts broke in the air causing a dead stick. The BME 44 is a very smooth running motor so I'm not sure why the mounts broke unless they are to small......




Gene

Scott H.

My Feedback: (1)

I'm running a World Models 160 size mount w/ 3/4" RCS standoffs. I've cut the mount down to the bare minimum. So far no problems. I drilled and tapped the holes 5mm for the engine mount and used nylocks to keep everything tight. Then used 6mm bolts on the mount to firewall with nylocks and aluminum washers. The biggest thing I have found is just to make sure everything stays tight.

You can see the pictures at:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/tsh...0+inch+Cap+232

Best of luck,

Scott H.

azhar

My Feedback: (19)

Hi all,

I have aquestion for those folks who used the CA hinges on their bird. Did you guys encountered any problems yet? I am tempted to go with the CA hinges but increase the numbers used. Any info with this setup will be appreciated.

Azhar

SunShyne

My Feedback: (68)

guys, do you think it will run nicely with a Moki 2.10? I am gonna get one for my winter project

patrik_97

how much did you have to cut in the cowl?

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

I just finished up my CAP and flew it last week end.

I have the DA 50 in it. This is my first Gasser. Let my say--I am very impressed. Starting was different't because of the choke. But once it started it just kept running and running. My friend holding it couldn't believe the the way it was pulling. Right now I'm running the 22x10 for break in and is a little fast in the air. Next prop is the 24x8 and it should be perfect. Power with the 22x10 is unreal.

Verticals climbs are unlimited. Haven't tried hovering yet but I don't see that is a problem. Flew for 10 minutes and still had more than 1/2 a tank left in my 20 oz tank. I haven't weighed it but it feels perfect in the air. Landings are very controllable and slow. Four flights and four picture perfect touchdowns. CG is at 6 1/2!QUOT! back. Didn't need to add lead to balance here.

Stall going straight ahead is non existant--just drops the nose. Flat spins a great, snaps are great, Hammerheads are great. knife edge need a touch of elevator and is not worth mixing out. The total combination of speed, Power, wing area, control surface area and the ability to still flat spin with a safe tip stall is very well done.

Needless to saw I am very happy with the results. Again this was my first day out--a total of 4 flights. I still haven't played with the fine tunning of the radio yet. I just copied the radio setup I had for my 40 Funtana and used them. And for $299 at Chiefs it's a great deal might even be closer to a steal.

I'll post more info when I get more flights on it and start tying the 3D stuff with it. I think it will be great by reading the other posts here.

vkmaynard

My Feedback: (1)

The dihedral in the "old' instructions is set at 3 5/8" (3 deg); the "new" pdf shows 3 19/32". Both produce nearly a 1/16" gap in the wing root joint at the top. Does this sound correct? I guess I am going to use my experimental airplane technology and mix some cotton fiber with the epoxy (flox) to keep the glue from running out and strengthen the joint.

Has anyone used the "hinge glue" that looks and smells like high priced Elmers Yellow Wood glue? Is polyurethane glue better?

Does anyone have the correct dimensions on the firewall to center the ZDZ 50? Are any standoffs needed?

Thanks,

Victor

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

I didn't bother with measuring the dihedral on the wings. Just put them together where there are no gaps and glued. The difference in a dihedral of 1/4 to 1/2' difference in the tips is marginal in the air.

I joined the wing halves together before I installed the ailerons. This way I can use two Robart incidence meters on the wing halves to make sure the lined up and did not have a twist.

But, a nice glue joint is very important. Use 30 minute epoxy and if you need to thicken it use micro balloons. It's light and stronger than the wood its being glued too -- so it wont weaken the structure. I mixed up micro balloons and poured it into the jointer slots in both wings and then used a brush to wet out all the surfaces. Wet out the jointer on all sides and slipped it into the wing half. I new I had enough epoxy when it started to ooze out . Slipped the other wing on and when the two sides came together I used masking tape to hold the wing halves together.

Once the wings are held together with tape. Set them on the table and prop them up so you can put the incidence meters on them. If they are of slightly you can still slide and twist the wings while the tape is holding them together. put the meters about 3/4 of the way out on the wings.

There are many ways to attach the ailerons. But the best is what the instructions call out. Use the minimal amount of hinges to allow for large throws without allot of resistance. The gap seal is used as another form of hinge. Not only used for sealing the air gap. But when you actually can get the film to touch and glue to itself through the hinge top and bottom -- then you have a very strong hinge. Much stronger than many hinges alone. I can bet you will never see a hinge pull out again.

vkmaynard

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks.

Micro is not what you want to use in the joint. That is a job for flox since it is fibrous. The micro balloons will weaken the glue (see how much easier it sands with micro). Micro mixture is used for light weight filling.

The incidence is off by a little less than 1/2" @ 4.0". Why are they so precise on their dihedral measurement?

I am going to use giant scale XX hinges instead. I've had CA hinges break.

Thanks,

Victor

Columbo

My Feedback: (9)

Yes,

Definitely use either plastic or metal hinges epoxyed in place. I had the CA hinges but they started to tear after 30 or so flights.

Greg

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

Did you see the insert--Micro and epoxy is still stronger than the wood. So it weakens the glue a little. Instead of being as strong as steel its now as strong as aluminum. Both are still stronger than the wood and so is epoxy when you mix micro balloons in it. Flox is cotton so it durable and is stringy and will also weaken the epoxy. Micro balloons is Glass bubbles stronger than flox in stiffness and still stronger than the wood when mixed in epoxy.

So, both Flox and Micro balloons weaken the epoxy. Both flox and micro balloons will work to glue the joint together. I chose Micro balloons over Flox, Carbon powder, Chopped glass, Cabisol, Aluminum powered because of the area involved. Micro balloons mixed with epoxy is lighter and will work with sufficient strength to hold the center of the wing together.

a. because the design does not requires the strength of the glue to determine the strength of the joint.
b. The spar is taking the loads not the glue.
c. To allow the spar to work correctly there should be no gaps between the spar and the joiner box -- the reason to fill the box up with epoxy/miro mix. The epoxy in the joint is only working in compression. Sanding is working in shear--therefore the sanding test is irrelevant.
d. to hold the left and right wing together needs minimal amount of strength. Two sided tape would be sufficient. Therefore epoxy and micro balloon mix is sufficient.
e. there is a mechanical joint by means of the plywood cap on the rear of the wing with to large screws holding the TE of the wing joint together.

I was tempting to not glue the joint together so I can have a two piece wing. The screws holding the wing to the fuse would hold the wing in the correct AOA (angel of Attack) and keep the wings from slide out of the joiner. I was planning on getting the spar to fit in the joint nice and tight to keep the wings from being loose. But, the wings fit in the truck just fine. Just glue it and move on. So that's what I did. But not first without taking the structure in thought and using the best choices of epoxy for the occasion.

BTW. I actually uses MGS L335 with 50% H335F and 50% H340S and after this epoxy was mixed I added 50% Micro balloons. Actual drying time of this epoxy is 12 hours and 7 days at room temp. I dried it at rampant 90 to 130 to 90 deg for 8 hours to speed up the cure time. Over the counter 30 Min with Micro balloons would have given you approximately the same properties.

PS. Use the information I posted here at your own discretion. No comment on the hinges don't have the time for a rebuttal. Use what makes you happy--That what this is all about.
Thanks for reading this.

vkmaynard

My Feedback: (1)

Well I disagree. That's not what we learned in Aerospace Engineering school. If cotton fiber weakens the overall composite matrix then why would you use fiberglass cloth, chop strand, Carbon fiber, E-glass, Kevlar or any other fiber with a resin mix? Just make you boat out of pure resin or a micro slurry and watch how long it holds up. That is why is called a composite (2 materials worked together). The resin keep the fibers from shearing and the fibers carry most of the load.

But micro maybe ok in this application (not for me). With enough micro in the epoxy it becomes weaker than the wood, especially in tension.

Vitor

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

Micro and flox have about the same properties. They both are used as a filler. Micro is used more to keep the epoxy light and flox used in corners to keep the square edges from cracking. Both of them would make a poor structure.

This has nothing to do with using Carbon, glass and kevlar to make boats or having a stronger structure. You have compared fillers and fiber reinforced fabrics to validate your reasoning. A filler material like Micro balloons, Flox and fiber reinforced fabrics are used for completely different purpose. I have chosen each material according to the requirements needed.

The discussion was a just to point out that using a mixture of epoxy and micro balloons to achieve a light bond when gluing the wings and jointer together would work. You agreed, somewhat reluctantly.

It has now become a wit it wit challenge. You discredit my opinion each time. Vitor, you are really taking the fun out of this whole thing!

Robert

vkmaynard

My Feedback: (1)

No Robert,

I just don't want someone to be misled. Flox is WAY stronger than micro because it is a fiber, period. It is used in corners and bulkhead joints to make a strong joint. My composite experimental airplane instructions NEVER once called for a micro fillet. Why? Because flox makes a stronger joint.

I would not recommend micro in a wing joint. You are better off with pure epoxy.

But do what makes you happy.

Victor

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

Hello Victor

Here is a Bulletin from a kit plane company than had the same concerns as you do. They have posted the results in a service bulletin. This bulletin can be found at: http://www.skystar.com/Service%20Letters/sl21.htm
The original mix that was sent with the kit planes had micro and fiberglass mix. But the 3M rep and tests were done with Micro balloons and epoxy verses the Flox and epoxy. Kitfox is the name of the Kit aircraft.

I have used the micro balloon mix in jointing hollow molded wings in open class sailplanes (110 to 130" wingspan). I have never had a problem with cracking or delaming. But, when talking to world Class pilots, they have mentioned that in very hi "G" loads of over 30 G's, as seen when DSing they have experienced delaming. When the sailplane loads and unloads when Micro balloon is used to hold all the parts inside the wing including the joiner box and spars the micro balloons will start to delam. We have switched over to cabisol in the root and spars and the tips still get micro Balloons mix. These planes reach over 200 MPH while the wings bend 10 to 14" at the tips. The wings have a root coord of only 10" and less the 1" thick at the root and get thinner at the tips.. And NO, I don't join the wing with Micro balloons--they use 3/4" thick by 1 1/2" Carbon or hardened steel jointer about 28" long. The jointer is not glued in to the wing just slip fit in, typical plug in wing style. The wings are taped to the fuse. The tape keeps the wings from sliding out of the joiner--no screws just electrical tape. And the wing is attached to the fuselage by the joiner going through the fuse. The steel jointer will flex more than the carbon one.
The micro balloons keep the top and bottom wing skins together from 1/2 way out of each wing to the tip. Cabisol is used for holding the spar caps to the Balsa web and to the wing skins. Normally under high stress the leading edge of the wing will split and allow the air to enter into the wing and literally blow it up. Further development lead to using a strip of glass to help bond the lower and upper skins together at the Leading edges. Yes, the Micro balloons did fail at this point but the glass has now improved the bond on the leading edges. Micro balloons is still being used and is subject to further testing.

The point is simple, You can see by a kit manufacture or by my personal experience with extreme use of Micro Balloons that; I am not misleading anyone. Just pointing out what you can use to join your wing and keep it light.

Robert

Beginning of letter......................................

SERVICE LETTER #21

SUBJECT: Cotton Pox - Micro-Balloons

TO: Model III and IV Owners - Serial #1143 Thru Serial #1420

FROM: Denney Aerocraft Company

You should have received recently our Service Bulletin #7, which dealt with cotton fox and fiberglass micro balloons. This letter is a follow-up.

The 3M technical representative we contacted said there should be no difference in bond adhesion or strength of the 3M #2216 Structural Epoxy whether cotton fox or micro balloons are used as “thickening” agent, or whether any other inert agent is used, or no stiffening agent at all. He did say that the epoxy with micro balloons may be less elastic when fully cured.

We conducted tests here at the factory which basically substantiated his conclusions. The peel strength and tensile strength of the two substances proved almost identical. The shear strength of the epoxy with micro balloons was a bit less than that with cotton flox. The tests were conducted on samples that had cured for about one week. We did mix the micro balloons at a very high ratio, and it was slow to cure, appearing more rubbery than the cotton fox mix for the first few days. It may take a little longer to fully cure than straight epoxy or the cotton fox mix.

CONCLUSION: The structural epoxy with micro balloons is acceptable for use in the construction of the Kitfox™.

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

Back to the Cap. I love my new Hanger 9 Cap. It is my first experience with gas and I think my next plane will be a bigger gasser. Any suggestions on the next level up? Maybe an 80 or 100CC twin?

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

Yes, Me again.
Flew this week end despite the small cross wind caused by the Santa Ana Winds. We are in a well protected area and not subject to the very fast winds. Anyway I was coming in to land and just missed the start of the runway. Nosed over and split the prop and cracked the well pants. One pretty bad. I went to Horizon Hobby and the Wheel Pants are out of stock. There are still other parts available. But I don't think the pants will become available again?

Does anyone have a set of wheel pants they didn't use?

I could also pull a mold off of one that is still new if you haven't cut into it yet. I can send it back to you after I made a mold. I'll pay shipping both ways. Anyone needing a wheel pant in the future can give me a call.

From what I saw in another post, the design is now taken over by JR. Models.
http://www.jr-models.cz/english/aera.html
So, parts will be come available; just more difficult to get.

CSD
Robert Cavazos
909-485-0674
www.rcglider.com

SunShyne

My Feedback: (68)

thats an interesting find. I am wondering what the pricing is going to be? it sais Hobby Lobby and Esprit Models are US dealers and have access to the product

Robert Cavazos

My Feedback: (50)

Well, Does anyone know here I can find another cap. I just loved that plane. I did a two knife edge loops and the last one hit into the side of a hill that is at least a 1/4 mile away. Nice clear day great for flying. You can see for miles. But, this time it didn't help...

BTW, if anyone is interested.

The the glue joint in the center of the wing held up fine. The side the of the wing that hit the hill first is missing to about 3/4 semi span and the other side has some frontal damage. So, all the fuss about if the Micro is going to hold. Well, it held just fine. No cracks, no splits, no problem.

Ailerons are there and in place until the damaged areas, where they are missing. So the the CA hinges with gap seal held on tight. But, don't know how long it would have lasted before they started to crack. I will do them again the next time because how well they performed the way the factory recommended to install them.

I have looked on the Chief Aircraft site and there not there. Called around different Hobby people and they said I can order one for $299.00. Still looking.