50cc Setup?
02-23-2009, 12:18 AM
#51
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RE: 50cc Setup?
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
Rather than wasting my time attempting to help people that don't know squat about setting up a gasser that want to debate what's and hows, just contact Wild Hare about the batteries. That's where I got them. I sure as hell am not going to take them out of a plane to take pictuers and the associated work that goes along with it.
With all your experience you guys aready know everything so you shouldn't have any problems figuering all the stuff out by yourselves.
Rather than wasting my time attempting to help people that don't know squat about setting up a gasser that want to debate what's and hows, just contact Wild Hare about the batteries. That's where I got them. I sure as hell am not going to take them out of a plane to take pictuers and the associated work that goes along with it.
With all your experience you guys aready know everything so you shouldn't have any problems figuering all the stuff out by yourselves.
02-23-2009, 12:30 AM
#52
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RE: 50cc Setup?
Jake,
A) You and I don't care for each other even a tiny bit. Cancel that, make it not at all. You had favorable thoughts when I supported you in some long past engine discussions. When I did not agree things went south, especially during your efforts to, and after you drove Ralph away. Since then we've had several fairly deep differences, so I expect little in the way of favorable word from you.
B) I was sold a bill of goods. I related what I was informed and what the label stated. That I did not send that product out to a chemist to explore was my mistake. They are still very good 2,500 mAh batteries that I would find better than many of the other lithium chemistrys currently in use, and still don't need to be regulated. Definately superior and lighter than a 6v 4,200 mAh nimh.
C) Although I've only been using them a short time my exposure has been much longer. I deferred making the change because I had numeroes new li-on batteries that worked just fine, and while a couple of people I fly with did personal research. That's been going on for close to 2 years now as I was informed last night.
D) I made a mistake, just 1, so what? Enjoy.
A) You and I don't care for each other even a tiny bit. Cancel that, make it not at all. You had favorable thoughts when I supported you in some long past engine discussions. When I did not agree things went south, especially during your efforts to, and after you drove Ralph away. Since then we've had several fairly deep differences, so I expect little in the way of favorable word from you.
B) I was sold a bill of goods. I related what I was informed and what the label stated. That I did not send that product out to a chemist to explore was my mistake. They are still very good 2,500 mAh batteries that I would find better than many of the other lithium chemistrys currently in use, and still don't need to be regulated. Definately superior and lighter than a 6v 4,200 mAh nimh.
C) Although I've only been using them a short time my exposure has been much longer. I deferred making the change because I had numeroes new li-on batteries that worked just fine, and while a couple of people I fly with did personal research. That's been going on for close to 2 years now as I was informed last night.
D) I made a mistake, just 1, so what? Enjoy.
02-23-2009, 01:19 AM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
T.O.M.
Your a real piece of work. You can't stop trying to put others down and boasting about yourself. No one said you should send all your batteries to a chemist. No one said you were a liar. You were the main one talking about Power Expanders. I simply stated that the only A123 batteries were 1100 and 2300 mah sizes and you go off on some kind of fit. If you were sold Batteries that were false advertised, It should not warrant you going off on the people in this thread. Why do you go to basting everyone with your credentials. I don't really care that you work in some kind of UAV field. There are those that would laugh at what you do and say that is nothing. One of my friends that I was flying with today is a Certified A&P Mechanic and flies Chinooks in the line of duty. He doesn't proclaim to be superior to everyone else and he is open to discussion. You don't know who you are talking to in these threads. I happen to know that another modeler that posted here is a Certified A&P Mechanic that works on multimillion dollar jets every day and he didn't go to blasting everyone with that. Apparently you must come to these forums for different reasons than I do. If you are superior to the rest of us then as far as I am concerned you can stay there. I'm perfectly happy down here with the inferiors.
Your a real piece of work. You can't stop trying to put others down and boasting about yourself. No one said you should send all your batteries to a chemist. No one said you were a liar. You were the main one talking about Power Expanders. I simply stated that the only A123 batteries were 1100 and 2300 mah sizes and you go off on some kind of fit. If you were sold Batteries that were false advertised, It should not warrant you going off on the people in this thread. Why do you go to basting everyone with your credentials. I don't really care that you work in some kind of UAV field. There are those that would laugh at what you do and say that is nothing. One of my friends that I was flying with today is a Certified A&P Mechanic and flies Chinooks in the line of duty. He doesn't proclaim to be superior to everyone else and he is open to discussion. You don't know who you are talking to in these threads. I happen to know that another modeler that posted here is a Certified A&P Mechanic that works on multimillion dollar jets every day and he didn't go to blasting everyone with that. Apparently you must come to these forums for different reasons than I do. If you are superior to the rest of us then as far as I am concerned you can stay there. I'm perfectly happy down here with the inferiors.
02-23-2009, 01:32 AM
#54
RE: 50cc Setup?
Ok guys, I've had to step in here and clean up this thread. Many posts have been removed in cleaning it up. I have also edited a few posts so that they could remain in the thread as they contained information that was germane to the discussion in the thread. If your post was edited or removed it was done so in the process of cleaning the thread. Due to the number of posts removed I have chosen to do a blanket notification here instead of doing it individually for each person.
I do understand that many people that participate here feel "strongly" about how their set up they planes and systems. However, there is no reason that these discussions cannot stay civil as they are discussed, regardless of the "passion level" of the people discussing the issue. I encourage every member here to participate in a civil and friendly manner as they discuss these issues (as called for by our rules). If some here find that they are unable to keep it friendly then there is a very good chance that they may find themselves in a little "time out" to think it over. I do hope that it doesn't come to that and that they discussion here will need no further intervention from the RCU moderators or administrators.
Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.
Ken
I do understand that many people that participate here feel "strongly" about how their set up they planes and systems. However, there is no reason that these discussions cannot stay civil as they are discussed, regardless of the "passion level" of the people discussing the issue. I encourage every member here to participate in a civil and friendly manner as they discuss these issues (as called for by our rules). If some here find that they are unable to keep it friendly then there is a very good chance that they may find themselves in a little "time out" to think it over. I do hope that it doesn't come to that and that they discussion here will need no further intervention from the RCU moderators or administrators.
Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.
Ken
02-23-2009, 02:15 AM
#56
RE: 50cc Setup?
ORIGINAL: cjcyclesrc
[:'(] This thread sure does look different now. Looks like some of the people on this thread will be happy to see the changes.
[:'(] This thread sure does look different now. Looks like some of the people on this thread will be happy to see the changes.
Ken
02-23-2009, 11:09 PM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
I had a similar thread a year or 2 ago,many of the people on this thread advised me in a simple performance way and it worked without flaws.
A 50cc can be built in a variety of ways,just like car manufactures differ and take things to seperate levels.
A BMW may look like a Malibu at a glance,similarities end shortly after that.
Its up to the owner to decide what they opt for,money,power,performance,maintenance.
Few agree on a package.
Some will come back and built/buy a better machine after learning the hard way.
A 50cc can be built in a variety of ways,just like car manufactures differ and take things to seperate levels.
A BMW may look like a Malibu at a glance,similarities end shortly after that.
Its up to the owner to decide what they opt for,money,power,performance,maintenance.
Few agree on a package.
Some will come back and built/buy a better machine after learning the hard way.
02-24-2009, 08:07 AM
#59
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RE: 50cc Setup?
Maybe as far as electrical setup is concerned, but I cannot see spending $200.00 more dollars on a plane (if that is what you are refering to) just because of the name on it. You should remimber that all of these planes are built on foreign shores, so people can say what they want but the qaulity is going to be close.
02-24-2009, 09:42 AM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
ORIGINAL: flaminheli
Maybe as far as electrical setup is concerned, but I cannot see spending $200.00 more dollars on a plane (if that is what you are refering to) just because of the name on it. You should remimber that all of these planes are built on foreign shores, so people can say what they want but the qaulity is going to be close.
Maybe as far as electrical setup is concerned, but I cannot see spending $200.00 more dollars on a plane (if that is what you are refering to) just because of the name on it. You should remimber that all of these planes are built on foreign shores, so people can say what they want but the qaulity is going to be close.
02-24-2009, 10:06 AM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
ORIGINAL: RCKen
I did not clean this thread with any one person or viewpoint in mind. Rather I went back to the start of the problem and removed any posts that resulted from that problem. There is no bias or favoritism in the way that I cleaned the thread, as can be witnessed in that I removed posts from many different people from both sides of the discussion. Rather, I removed all posts that were part of the problem. I urge people to not try to read into this that there is a bias to the way that this thread was moderated, as there was none.
Ken
ORIGINAL: cjcyclesrc
[:'(] This thread sure does look different now. Looks like some of the people on this thread will be happy to see the changes.
[:'(] This thread sure does look different now. Looks like some of the people on this thread will be happy to see the changes.
Ken
02-24-2009, 01:20 PM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
True
I have owned several generic planes and some performance label aircraft.
You will see and feel the difference immediately if you are performance oriented at all.
I have owned several generic planes and some performance label aircraft.
You will see and feel the difference immediately if you are performance oriented at all.
02-24-2009, 02:11 PM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
I will agree with that, you generally can move equipment to a new plane. This is why many of us best the best servos we can afford. 7955s may cost more but they will work in all airframes up to 40%ers.
If you cut corners on servos you are buying new stuff each plane, costs you more money in the long run than to do it right the first time.
If you cut corners on servos you are buying new stuff each plane, costs you more money in the long run than to do it right the first time.
02-24-2009, 04:44 PM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
Just an informational note. A 123 batteries are now available in 2.500 mAh capacities. They are not limited to 1,100 and 2,300. I have a pair of the 2,500's in my Yak, and a pair of 2,300's in my Edge. Available from Wild Hare.
True A 123 batteries have burst amperage abiity up to 60 amps. Our servo connectors max out and melt above 4 amps. Pluuging both battery leads into a wye in oder to use a single receiver port assures that you have the abiloity to melt a connector. It's not likely you will ever have a mogambo amperage burst but a poor linkage installation could cause it to happen. Why set up for disaster? You do not have to use both power leads from an A 123 battery, but it's pretty nice to have the amperage available if ever needed. The receiver can handle the amperage and the voltage is only 6.6v. All the servos and the receiver can easily handle 6.6v unregulated.
AMA engine kills requirements are similar to those of the IMAA. You must have a means of killing the engine from the transmitter, in addition to some other type of kill switch on the plane. They made those rules somewhat vague, but what it boils down to is that the electronic ignition slide swith counts as a plane mounted kill switch and the transmitter kill can be the usual and simple throttle/idle cut off. A couple of "special interest" competiton categories require a choke or isolated type kill switch in addition to the first two noted.
Flaminheli,
Your electrical installation should not be any more involved that it would be with a basic glow aircraft. The only differences are as follows. The engine has it's own electrical system for the ignition. It consists of a single separate switch, a small ignition battery, and the ignition unit. All of those components are dedicated to each other and not shared by the flight system.
The flight system consists of one or two switches. Single switch for single battery, two switches if two batteries are used. Battery plugs into the switch, switch plugs into the receiver along with the servos, just like a glow system. If you use A 123's you just have 1 more battery lead.
If you elect to use smoke the option is there to power the smoke pump through the flight battery or with a separate battery dedicated to the smoke system. The separate battery is a little more weight but greatly reduces the chance of 9interfering with the flight systme while extending flight time.
Just an informational note. A 123 batteries are now available in 2.500 mAh capacities. They are not limited to 1,100 and 2,300. I have a pair of the 2,500's in my Yak, and a pair of 2,300's in my Edge. Available from Wild Hare.
True A 123 batteries have burst amperage abiity up to 60 amps. Our servo connectors max out and melt above 4 amps. Pluuging both battery leads into a wye in oder to use a single receiver port assures that you have the abiloity to melt a connector. It's not likely you will ever have a mogambo amperage burst but a poor linkage installation could cause it to happen. Why set up for disaster? You do not have to use both power leads from an A 123 battery, but it's pretty nice to have the amperage available if ever needed. The receiver can handle the amperage and the voltage is only 6.6v. All the servos and the receiver can easily handle 6.6v unregulated.
AMA engine kills requirements are similar to those of the IMAA. You must have a means of killing the engine from the transmitter, in addition to some other type of kill switch on the plane. They made those rules somewhat vague, but what it boils down to is that the electronic ignition slide swith counts as a plane mounted kill switch and the transmitter kill can be the usual and simple throttle/idle cut off. A couple of "special interest" competiton categories require a choke or isolated type kill switch in addition to the first two noted.
Flaminheli,
Your electrical installation should not be any more involved that it would be with a basic glow aircraft. The only differences are as follows. The engine has it's own electrical system for the ignition. It consists of a single separate switch, a small ignition battery, and the ignition unit. All of those components are dedicated to each other and not shared by the flight system.
The flight system consists of one or two switches. Single switch for single battery, two switches if two batteries are used. Battery plugs into the switch, switch plugs into the receiver along with the servos, just like a glow system. If you use A 123's you just have 1 more battery lead.
If you elect to use smoke the option is there to power the smoke pump through the flight battery or with a separate battery dedicated to the smoke system. The separate battery is a little more weight but greatly reduces the chance of 9interfering with the flight systme while extending flight time.
I to am new to the giant scale scene and this is probably the easiet to read and understand explanation i have come across yet!!!
Geoff
02-24-2009, 06:16 PM
#68
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RE: 50cc Setup?
So in effect a 2,500 mAh A123 cell was available biut it was under the K@ name with license from the A 123 people if I read W/H Tom's statement correctly.
As for 50cc aircraft quality, there are quite a few thyat are so close to each other in quality that the only real differences in how they perform and how they will hold up is left in the hands of the owners and how they set them up. QQ, PAU, EF, WH, AEW and one or two others that I can't remember at the moment are very close in performance and quality. It most certainly does come down to what an individual wants to spend on planes in that group and how they want them to fly.
As for 50cc aircraft quality, there are quite a few thyat are so close to each other in quality that the only real differences in how they perform and how they will hold up is left in the hands of the owners and how they set them up. QQ, PAU, EF, WH, AEW and one or two others that I can't remember at the moment are very close in performance and quality. It most certainly does come down to what an individual wants to spend on planes in that group and how they want them to fly.
02-24-2009, 06:51 PM
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RE: [Deleted]
Well you can drop QQ from that list since they will be no more next month.
As for the K2 is actually slightly different in performance and slightly cheaper per cell. Either way the K2 has more than enough power for our needs.
K2
Nominal Capacity @ C/5 (mAh) 2,600
Average Operating Voltage @ C/5 (V) 3.2
Internal Impedance @ 1kHz,AC (m) < 9
Weight (g) 80.5 ± 2
Recommended Operating Conditions
Continuous Discharge (mA) ≤ 10,000
Pulse Discharge (mA) 30 Seconds,
Voltage >2.5 V 26,000
Charge Current (mA) ≤ 2,500
Charge Voltage Cutoff (V) 3.65
Discharge Voltage Cutoff (V) 2.5
High Operating Temp (°C) 60
Low Operating Temp (°C) -20
Maximum Operating Conditions
Continuous Discharge (mA) 42,000
Pulse Discharge (mA) 30 Seconds,
Voltage >2.5 V
50,000
Charge Current (mA) 5,000
Charge Voltage Cutoff (V) 4.1
Discharge Voltage Cutoff (V) 2.0
A123
Nominal capacity and voltage 2.3 Ah, 3.3 V
Internal impedance (1kHz AC) 8 m0 typical
Internal resistance (10A, 1s DC) 10 m0 typical
Recommended standard charge method 3A to 3.6V CCCV, 45 min
Recommended fast charge current 10A to 3.6V CCCV, 15 min
Maximum continuous discharge 70A
Pulse discharge at 10 sec 120A
Cycle life at 10C discharge, 100% DOD Over 1,000 cycles
Recommended pulse charge/discharge cutoff 3.8V to 1.6V
Operating temperature range -30°C to +60°C
Storage temperature range -50°C to +60°C
Core cell weight 70 grams
The most notable thing is that A123s can be charged at 10amps and K2s they want to stick 5amps and under. Looks like Max amps is 42 vs 70 and a slight weight difference.
The one thing that always gets me with the A123s is people saying it only takes 15 mins to charge and not to complain about charging. This is simply not true, it takes 15 mins at 10 amps, if you are using a CellPro like I am using it takes 30-45 mins per pack depending on how far you drained them. So that is one of the reasons for my personal issue with A123s.. it can take 1.5 hours to fly unless you run 2 10 amp chargers and have the batteries to power those chargers at that high of current.
As for T.O.M.'s list, I think there are a bunch that are close in quality and hardware. I still feel design has a little to do with it. However I can show you videos with a guy flying the heck out of a Lanier Yak and I was not impressed with how it flew at all.
As for the K2 is actually slightly different in performance and slightly cheaper per cell. Either way the K2 has more than enough power for our needs.
K2
Nominal Capacity @ C/5 (mAh) 2,600
Average Operating Voltage @ C/5 (V) 3.2
Internal Impedance @ 1kHz,AC (m) < 9
Weight (g) 80.5 ± 2
Recommended Operating Conditions
Continuous Discharge (mA) ≤ 10,000
Pulse Discharge (mA) 30 Seconds,
Voltage >2.5 V 26,000
Charge Current (mA) ≤ 2,500
Charge Voltage Cutoff (V) 3.65
Discharge Voltage Cutoff (V) 2.5
High Operating Temp (°C) 60
Low Operating Temp (°C) -20
Maximum Operating Conditions
Continuous Discharge (mA) 42,000
Pulse Discharge (mA) 30 Seconds,
Voltage >2.5 V
50,000
Charge Current (mA) 5,000
Charge Voltage Cutoff (V) 4.1
Discharge Voltage Cutoff (V) 2.0
A123
Nominal capacity and voltage 2.3 Ah, 3.3 V
Internal impedance (1kHz AC) 8 m0 typical
Internal resistance (10A, 1s DC) 10 m0 typical
Recommended standard charge method 3A to 3.6V CCCV, 45 min
Recommended fast charge current 10A to 3.6V CCCV, 15 min
Maximum continuous discharge 70A
Pulse discharge at 10 sec 120A
Cycle life at 10C discharge, 100% DOD Over 1,000 cycles
Recommended pulse charge/discharge cutoff 3.8V to 1.6V
Operating temperature range -30°C to +60°C
Storage temperature range -50°C to +60°C
Core cell weight 70 grams
The most notable thing is that A123s can be charged at 10amps and K2s they want to stick 5amps and under. Looks like Max amps is 42 vs 70 and a slight weight difference.
The one thing that always gets me with the A123s is people saying it only takes 15 mins to charge and not to complain about charging. This is simply not true, it takes 15 mins at 10 amps, if you are using a CellPro like I am using it takes 30-45 mins per pack depending on how far you drained them. So that is one of the reasons for my personal issue with A123s.. it can take 1.5 hours to fly unless you run 2 10 amp chargers and have the batteries to power those chargers at that high of current.
As for T.O.M.'s list, I think there are a bunch that are close in quality and hardware. I still feel design has a little to do with it. However I can show you videos with a guy flying the heck out of a Lanier Yak and I was not impressed with how it flew at all.
02-24-2009, 06:52 PM
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RE: 50cc Setup?
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
So in effect a 2,500 mAh A123 cell was available biut it was under the K@ name with license from the A 123 people if I read W/H Tom's statement correctly.
As for 50cc aircraft quality, there are quite a few thyat are so close to each other in quality that the only real differences in how they perform and how they will hold up is left in the hands of the owners and how they set them up. QQ, PAU, EF, WH, AEW and one or two others that I can't remember at the moment are very close in performance and quality. It most certainly does come down to what an individual wants to spend on planes in that group and how they want them to fly.
So in effect a 2,500 mAh A123 cell was available biut it was under the K@ name with license from the A 123 people if I read W/H Tom's statement correctly.
As for 50cc aircraft quality, there are quite a few thyat are so close to each other in quality that the only real differences in how they perform and how they will hold up is left in the hands of the owners and how they set them up. QQ, PAU, EF, WH, AEW and one or two others that I can't remember at the moment are very close in performance and quality. It most certainly does come down to what an individual wants to spend on planes in that group and how they want them to fly.
T.O.M.
You must be talking about 2,500 K2 batteries. They should not be refered to as A123's. That would be like calling all 2.4 radio systems Spektrum. A123 Systems M1 Cells are a patented Nanophosphateâ„¢ lithium ion battery.
02-24-2009, 07:00 PM
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RE: [Deleted]
I think it comes down to Tom at WH was mislead by a supplier. I say no harm no foul. The only issue is that they shouldn't be charged at 10amps. Outside of that people still got a good battery that will do more than what they need and has a bit more life in it per charge.
02-24-2009, 07:04 PM
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RE: [Deleted]
ORIGINAL: Jake Ruddy
The one thing that always gets me with the A123s is people saying it only takes 15 mins to charge and not to complain about charging. This is simply not true, it takes 15 mins at 10 amps, if you are using a CellPro like I am using it takes 30-45 mins per pack depending on how far you drained them. So that is one of the reasons for my personal issue with A123s.. it can take 1.5 hours to fly unless you run 2 10 amp chargers and have the batteries to power those chargers at that high of current.
The one thing that always gets me with the A123s is people saying it only takes 15 mins to charge and not to complain about charging. This is simply not true, it takes 15 mins at 10 amps, if you are using a CellPro like I am using it takes 30-45 mins per pack depending on how far you drained them. So that is one of the reasons for my personal issue with A123s.. it can take 1.5 hours to fly unless you run 2 10 amp chargers and have the batteries to power those chargers at that high of current.
02-24-2009, 07:12 PM
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RE: [Deleted]
Don't get me wrong, I think they are a great solution to a lot of issues and work for a lot of people.
I just don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread as sometimes they get made out to be. My flights are often 20+ mins.. it doesn't take long before I am charging again and 2 packs is 12oz. If I want that much weight I would rather not have to charge at the field.
I lasted all summer not complaining and converted a few people too them. I just started thinking with 7.4v usable there are some nice advantages now that servos can use it and I was charging on my way to the field and at the field.. just started to get old.
I just don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread as sometimes they get made out to be. My flights are often 20+ mins.. it doesn't take long before I am charging again and 2 packs is 12oz. If I want that much weight I would rather not have to charge at the field.
I lasted all summer not complaining and converted a few people too them. I just started thinking with 7.4v usable there are some nice advantages now that servos can use it and I was charging on my way to the field and at the field.. just started to get old.
02-24-2009, 07:29 PM
#75
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RE: 50cc Setup?
Read W/H Tom's note about the K2 battery production again. The way I understood it, the ones that K2 were producing under license were the same as the A 123. If not,, there was no need for a license agreement. Perhaps I'm mistaken.
In any case, I don't charge at 10 amps because that high of a charge rate really isn't necessary to charge the packs in a short time period. Any time a battery becomes hot during the charge process some harm is being done to the battery so I avoid charge rates that heat them up. With field charging I figure I have a cig lighter or 12v power outlet on the dash so simply plugging an off the shelf extension adaptor into either one provides a good power supply with a 15 or 20 amp breaker. Most of the chargers are 12vdc units so no voltage conversions are needed.
In any case, I don't charge at 10 amps because that high of a charge rate really isn't necessary to charge the packs in a short time period. Any time a battery becomes hot during the charge process some harm is being done to the battery so I avoid charge rates that heat them up. With field charging I figure I have a cig lighter or 12v power outlet on the dash so simply plugging an off the shelf extension adaptor into either one provides a good power supply with a 15 or 20 amp breaker. Most of the chargers are 12vdc units so no voltage conversions are needed.