BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Well, I just saw a new sub-forum pop up and I couldn't resist. Since I'm here, let me ask: Have any of you successfully converted an ace simple series plane to e-power? I still plan on norvel power for my AT-6, but I was just wondering....after all the kits are sooo cheap, you can't resist wondering.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

I've read about a conversion using a Speed 400 motor and gearbox that came out under 20oz. If you can keep it light when you build it, an electric conversion won't be difficult at all.

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Yeah, I was playing around with p-calc and that seems like a reasonable solution. "Build" and "light" are two words I rarely use in the same sentence, unfortunately. I've still got a bit to learn there......I think I'll build this one with the norvel and maybe pick up the corsair I saw at the LHS of one of next winter's projects.

Electrified

I've got an AT-6 on the bench now going electric. I've used a setup before on similar airframes with phenominal performance. It's a GWS speed 400 gearbox with a 2.14 / 1 ratio. They are available from Aeromicro.com for 16 bucks with the motor. (ball bearings on the prop shaft) Combined with a graupner speed prop 7 x 7 ( I know it sounds steep but trust me here). Run it on ten cells, Nimh 1100's and you will be very impressed. Six to seven minutes at full throttle and plenty of pull. Except for the gear sound, the other guys will think you went brushless.

A light build is always important. I'm sheeting the bottom of the wing with 1/32nd balsa for landing durability (a bunch of other mods too). Also, I've found that almost every kit has more dihedral than needed. Usually 25% can be taken out without a stability penalty. Yielding a better glide, more lift and over-weight tolerance. I'll be taking a third of it out of the AT-6 and keeping the CG as low as possible.

I have a modified simple 400 with a mini AC1512/ 20 brushless in it, on 8 cells, direct on a 5 x 4.3 GWS direct drive prop. (except for being orange these props are great, will easily run with a Graupner 5X5 on performance without breaking on landings, better vertical too!). The airframe is slimmed down alot over stock (1 1/4" reduction in fuse height. Slimmed nose for the 280 sized motor) and the ailerons are boxed in. The plane is 16.8oz AUW. Radared at 66mph straight and level. great vertical performance and 7 plus minutes, flat out.

Electrics smell better than Gas!

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Would this setup be the eps400c in the "A" GB? I like GWS stuff--it's like timex: it's cheap, it ain't fancy, but it does a respectable job for the $$ and it takes a lickin'. So far my electron powered experience has been limited to a few wattage products and the GWS tiger moth, j-3, and beaver. I was a lot more impressed with the GWS stuff. How does the simple 400 fly at slower speeds? The reason I was thinking of converting one of the ace kits was to have a low-buck plane to buzz around my father's hayfields and would offer higher performance and wind penetration than the cub and TM. How long does that motor setup last on ten cells? I really hope it lives longer than IPS drives do on eight cells.

Electrified

Yeah that's the motor gearbox setup. I've found the motor lasts as long as any speed 400 direct on 8 cells with a 5x5 prop. The key to the performance geared is the prop really. 4 months ago I had to make my own 7 X 7 and 8 X 8 props. I'm glad to see them finally come out in the graupner speed prop series.

The GWS planes haven't been that great IMO not at 5000 ft altitude anyway. They all need so many mods to really fly well. My Tiger Moth has a carbon fiber tube spar 25% less dihedral than stock, a mig 280 on a 2.8 / 1 gear with a 8 x 6 prop. It performs really well (for what it is). AUW is 12.3 oz with 8cell 700mah aboard.

The simple 400 is a very versatile airplane. Especially set up right, with a few mods. But even stock it is a great flier (6V speed 400 direct with a GWS 5 x 4.3 on 7 or 8 cells). Of all the planes I've flown it has the widest speed range. I would say it stalls around 12 to 16mph. But control is good right up to the stall. Mine doesn't tip stall at all. A friend of mine's does, but you should see it . This guy puts up stuff that doesn't look like it should even fly. I'd recommend the simple 400 to anyone. It flies "slow" or fast, tracks like it's on rails at anything above 30mph Launches and landings are the easiest of any faster plane I have seen. Build it light and streamline the nose as much as your motor choice will allow. It will soon become a favorite of your hanger.


Electrics smell better than gas!

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Hmm, I guess I just like the fact that there's room for *ahem*, "improvement" in the GWS planes. The only mods I've done to my cub have been to add a steerable tailwheel, and a few times I have made a multi-piece wing for easy transport . The re-assembly sequence is a little lengthy, though. Seriously, my TM benefits from hard balsa strut doublers, a monofilament braced wing with scale-type (v as opposed to x) rigging, dubro mini-lite wheels, a homemade klett hinge steerable tailwheel, and a eps100c s-1 drive with 9x7 prop and 7-350 nicd cells. I fly at 600' msl and have pretty low expectations, so maybe that's part of the reason I like 'em. You've given me food for thought about the simple series. Right now, though, I've got my hands full. I still need to get my sig LT-25 done, and I just made the process a little longer the other night with an epoxy mis-hap.

Electrified

Yeah sounds like your TM has a long list of mods. I bet it flies well too. I build Arfs in my spare time for some other guys here. So I've seen the shortcomings of a few GWS designs. The P-51 won't even fly here. Put enough power in it to fly and it gets into wing loading issues big time. My buddy Marko got a GWS Zero that I built and modified for him some. First flight was a nightmare! The things dynamic balance is all wrong. It's like balancing a broom on the end of your finger (bristles up). It was overflying the prop too so it lacked enough speed to track. The gear wouldn't hold the thing up sitting still on the ground. And the CG on the plans was 13 mm too far back. The glide, well, what glide.

I moved the batteries from the very top of the fuselage (what were they thinking) to a fake torpedo hung under the center of the wing. Then I lowered the gear ratio and went with a 9 x7 prop. The motor is working pretty hard but it doesn't overheat. It flies great now compared to stock, but I still wouldn't want one even with the improvements. They claim on the box it will do knife edge etc. Yeah right, maybe if you put a mini ac brushless in it and just enough juice aboard for three minutes of flight. Then the wings would probably fold when you pulled it.

I'm kind of spoiled on performance though. This one friend of mine designs and builds planes from scratch. He even designs his own airfoils. I've maidened some of his stuff, and flown the rest. If I ever talk him into kiting his stuff we will all be lucky. The latest he has is a little cresent shaped wing, number. It looks cool but you wonder right away how it might fly. It's running on a Speed 400 and 7 cells. It's pushing 90mph flat out but slows to slow flier speeds for landing (with good control). The thing is snappy but smooth as butter on the controls. Just plain amazing!!! After you get on the sticks with something like that, any plane GWS offers is looking pretty lame.

When you have time, definately get a simple 400. Alot of guys put a 480 in them but it's so much heavier it's just not worth it. You get a couple miles an hour faster (who cares) a heavier glide and shorter duration than the 400. If you can swing it $ put in a mini ac 20 turn brushless 1.8 ozs . People will be stopping what they are doing to watch it carve up the sky for 7 minutes.

Electric smell better than gas!

Dave Lilley

I have a converted cub. It originally flew on a 6v s400 with a 1.85GB, an 8x600 pack, and an 8x4 prop. I changed it to a 4.8v Race 400, a 3:1 GB, and a 7x5 prop (still on the 8x600 pack). The second system provided much more power and better aerobatic capabilities, but the Race 400 didn't last long. I think I got ~20 flights out of it before it died. Right now it's on the bench, but when I revive it again, I may go with on of the cheap brushless setups, such as the MPJet brushless, and some LiPoly packs, which would dramatically boost its flight time.

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

I haven't taken the brushless or the Li-poly plunge yet, but I fear I may be forced to (poor, poor me) if I decide to build any electrics much bigger than the TM. Sounds like your 4.8v 400 didn't like being fed 2x the voltage, eh? That's the only thing I don't like about the IPS system in the GWS......you get enough voltage in it to make it somewhat aerobatic, and ZAP! the endbells melt on ya! The prices are at a point now that its not THAT much more to go BL, there's just more research needed to justify the slightly larger purchase. The MPJet you mention looks very reasonable, as do the razor motors and even the astro 010. As for the Li-poly's, I've got to research a little more on that and figure out whether to buy one of the cheaper dedicated chargers, or pawn off my MRC superbrain on someone else and get a Triton or Supernova so I can charge it all in one machine.

Dave Lilley

I bought a cheaper LiPoly charger, and now I wish I spent the bucks and got a nice charger, like the Schulze 4??. It can charge up to 13 Lithiums.

Electrified

Yeah Dave, I've used that 1.85 to 1 gear with a 6V 400 too. It's that orange one right? It's inefficient for the application. It has helical gears in it which really eats up some power and drags your RPM's down. The GWS 2.14 to 1, 6V 400 set up will blow its doors off. Plus the Cub isn't really designed to be aerobatic so it doesn't make efficient use of any amount of power for aerobatics. The GWS with a 7x7 or 6.5x6.5 graupner speed prop will run on the NiMh 1100's nearly doubling duration. I have been flying an all up weight of 26 ozs, flying wing (modified FMA Razor) on the cheap but powerful combo lately (ten 1100 cells). The thing will climb doing consecutive loops at over 5500 ft density altitude. It will do any maneuver you could ask of it. Flat out, all of the way, it will give 7 minutes of fun.

With electrics at lower amp draws (able to use NiMh batts) every aspect of the system has to be optimized to get rocking performance in the air. The wrong gears or prop or batts and performance goes south in a hurry. 5 to 10% of performance decrease in the air can make all of the difference in satisfaction.

Elecetrics smell better than Gas!

QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Lilley
I have a converted cub. It originally flew on a 6v s400 with a 1.85GB, an 8x600 pack, and an 8x4 prop. I changed it to a 4.8v Race 400, a 3:1 GB, and a 7x5 prop (still on the 8x600 pack). The second system provided much more power and better aerobatic capabilities, but the Race 400 didn't last long. I think I got ~20 flights out of it before it died. Right now it's on the bench, but when I revive it again, I may go with on of the cheap brushless setups, such as the MPJet brushless, and some LiPoly packs, which would dramatically boost its flight time. [/QUOTE]

Electrified

Well I finished it on Friday night and got in five flights over the weekend. It's an ACE Simple series kit with reduced dihedral. Custom wingtips (to look more scale) deeper chord trailing edge and boxed in ailerons starting 6 inches from the center of the span. I ended up adding 12 to 13 sq in of wing area with the tips and deeper trailing edge. Good thing too because I came out almost 2 ounces over target weight. 22 ounces total ready to go. Wing loading between 16 and 17 oz/sq ft. I had put in a 1/64th plywood doubler in the fuselage sides. I could have saved a half an ounce by reducing those to half (shrug), or more by leaving them out entirely. They sure do make for a strong fuselage though.

Powered by the GWS 2.14 to 1, speed 400 gear drive on ten 1100 NiMh cells. The prop is a steep 7 x 7 graupner speed prop. The prop is the key. Recently I have been propping systems for flight speed instead of the standard compromise. Static thrust isn't that great but at flight speed, efficiency is maximized giving unexpected performance (well, I expected it). She loops from level flight no problem and tracks and handles great. Rolls are crisp and fast on high rates. Inverted flight takes quite a bit of forward stick but I'm sure I need to work the CG back some for optimum handling. The glide is better than I expected. So many war birds like (read as, need) to land under power. This baby glides great. Power off approach and landing with a soft ground effect flare right before touch down. The stall is very tame too. I couldn't be much happier with it. When I get the CG dialed in perfectly, it should be just a little better. At 20 oz this thing would really, really kick butt.


Electrics smell better than Gas!

Dave Lilley

I was using a Graupner BB gear. It ran nice and smooth. When the Cub was still flying, it could do some really good aerobatics.


I am gald to hear that you plane is flying well. Someday I will get out my old Cub and give her a facelift.




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