Greg Covey

My friend, Paul Weigand, mounted the Xoar prop to the Turnigy CA120-70 motor. He used a DA-100 drill guide but still needed to open the holes by .020" (0.5mm) for a proper fit. This seems to confirm my original measurement between holes as 30mm instead of the DA-100 standard of 29mm.

We won't bother with the spinner and backplate mounting until I determine the prop size I want to use. The 42% Ultimate comes with a nice aluminum backplate and white locking nylon spinner.

It looks like we're in for some more snow the next few days so hopefully I will have an opportunity to test it in the driveway this weekend.

LDHFlyguy

Hey Greg,
I'm getting pretty anxious here.
Good luck with the weather.
I could come over and clear your driveway if it speeds things up!
I'm probably only about 1,000 miles away.
I have two different brand of drill guides, two DA engines and one 3-W.
I don't think I've ever been able to drill a 6 hole prop perfectly the first time.
I usually have to go back and slightly enlarge a hole or two.
I'm pretty good at the center (7'th) hole.

Greg Covey

The weather today prevented me from doing a full power test outside in my driveway but I decided to perform a low-RPM test inside in my gym room. The test was very successful and I am excited to try it again soon.

The video below shows how easy it is to arm and disarm the power system without a spark. The portable work bench is weighed down in the back with a 75lb E-Z curl bar. My Spektrum transmitter was turned on just prior to filming and I removed the Xoar prop covers.

[link=http://www.gregcovey.com/reviews/TurnigyMotorTest1.wmv]Turnigy Motor Test 1[/link] (6meg)

LDHFlyguy

Wow Greg,
Everything you posted here in the pics and video looks very professional and promising for a successful full power motor run.

Since it's a little far for me to drive to clean off your driveway, I have another idea.
How about setting up the test stand inside your garage with the prop blast facing out the door?
You'll have the snow blown away in no time at a low power setting, then move your setup out onto the driveway and pour on the power!

Best wishes for a successful test run outside!

Larry

Greg Covey

Thanks, Larry. I like the snow blower idea!

In the video, a framed photo blew off the wall and hit the video camera stand on its way down. The rubber flooring helped keep the glass from breaking.

Although stated before, the reason I am testing the motor outside the plane is because the Turnigy CA120-70 has no track record. Once satisfied with its performance, we'll build the motor box in the Ultimate and mount the motor. Assuming all works well, it will be a relatively low-cost giant scale power system.[ul][*] Turnigy CA120-70 motor - [link=http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14427]$300[/link][*] Castle Creations ICE HV 160 ESC - [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXYVB2&P=ML]$272[/link][*] Xoar 30x10 Beachwood Prop - [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXZJA7&P=7]$61[/link]
[/ul]

Greg Covey

It wasn't much warmer on Sunday but at least the sun was out. I thought it was 20 degrees but it was really 15 degrees with a single digit wind chill. It didn't stop us as we proceeded to have the second motor test. My buddy, Jeff, made a LiPo pack warmer from insulation bags used on tropical fish. It kept the pack from directly feeling the single digit wind chill.

The video below is both impressive for the power that this setup can deliver and humorous as I kept having to put more weights on the bench to keep it from tipping. I throttled up slowly and kept an alert eye on the bench from a safe distance inside the garage. We were amazed at the prop blast that was blowing 25 feet into the garage.

The result summary is that while I obtained a 10.8KW power level, I reached the limit of the Castle ICE HV 160 ESC as it tripped the current limit at 260 amps. This is what it is designed to do when set to "Normal" current limit. My goal using this ESC is to obtain a power level closer to 9KW with a current peak around 200-225 amps.

In the video, I mentioned that I would try using a low timing setting but after checking the current level on the data logging, I realize that I need to drop to an 11s3p configuration if I still want to use my 30x10 prop. So this will be my next test for next weekend; stay with normal timing and use an 11s3p setup.

I also plan to beef up my motor test box and work bench as the power level at 10,000 watts is impressive!

[link=http://www.gregcovey.com/reviews/TurnigyMotorTest2.wmv]Turnigy Motor Test 2[/link] (16meg)

LDHFlyguy

Wow, I mean WOW Greg,
That was a pretty impressive power output for the motor and current for the ESC.
Congratulations!

I felt like I was right there with you as I watched the video. Each time the workbench started to tip,
I about jumped out of my seat.
Perhaps some sort of rope/cable attached to the top of the workbench and
back to something like a vehicle inside the garrage would keep the bench from from tipping.

10.8 kW is a little bit surprising. Using a shorter prop might be something to try. I'm wondering
if the RPMs are sufficient to pull your bi-plane around at a reasonable speed with the 30 x 10 ? Especially if you go to
11S.

I'm also wondering how a 90 degree day in the summer will effect your maximums.
I bet the motor and ESC barely broke a sweat on Sunday.

More tests, pics, and videos please.
Best Wishes for more of those impressive results.

slevin1

My Feedback: (23)

Greg,

Congrats on the engine test. Because the motor's Amps far exceed the ESC's max amps, would it be a good idea to use the Schulze 300 amp ESC?

Also, what do you mean when you say "current limit"? I have never heard that term before.

Thanks,
Saul

LDHFlyguy

Hey Saul,
I don't know if the Schulze 300 is a good idea for Greg.
I just spent close to 2K total on a Pred 37-6 and Schulze 40.303.
What if Greg winds up getting more power out of the Turnigy than I'm gonna get for my 2K? [>:]
No Greg, the Schulze is definitely a bad idea.

Larry

Greg Covey

Hi guys,

We are thinking along the same lines as I am planning to tie the top of the work bench to the tow rings on my Expedition...in addition to using the weights. I also plan to beef-up my wooden test box with some metal brackets, more screws, and more glue. I don't need anything coming apart now.

The Schulze 300 amp ESC is an excellent idea as long as you have an extra $700 to spend. I am reserving that option for now.

The Castle Creations ESCs are full of awesome features. In addition to the data logging, you can set limits on many parameters like voltage drop, current limit, start-up speed, Pulse-width modulation speed, motor timing, etc. Although the ICE HV 160 ESC is rated for 160 amps continuous with a 5mph air flow, it has much more capability that will not be advertised. This is why my plan is to achieve around 9KW peak power.

We'll see what the 11s LiPo supply does for the current level with the Xoar 30x10 prop.

By the way, the reason the original Turnigy testing numbers resulted in around a 160-amp draw with a 27" prop is that they used a 12s2p LiPo supply. My 12s3p LiPo supply would have less voltage drop and result in higher power. Knowing this, the 30" prop choice was probably too aggressive a change. Since it is easier for me to change the cell count by next weekend, as I don't have another 28" prop, I will try the 11s supply.

Lastly, even though I may settle for a 8KW to 9KW power setup initially, it doesn't mean that I won't swap the ESC for a Schulze or Jeti or even a new Castle design. My initial goal here is to determine if this Turnigy CA120-70 motor will fall apart when approaching 10KW of power. So far, it seems to be up to the task.

LDHFlyguy

Better get some wheel chocks for the Expedition !

papajeff

You guys are totally correct! I think that Greg should learn from these initial monster power bench tests
and do the right thing. In this case, the right thing , especially for safety sake, is to have an expert electrical
& mechanical engineer on site every time that Greg does another bench test of this MEGA power system.
I have just the right guy for this important task.

Now, don't you worry Greg, he only gets released from the HOME on weekends and he has one of those
GPS ankle bracelets so that his therapists can always find him.

LDHFlyguy

In case the right guy isn't available for next weekend, perhaps Greg would enjoy a trip to Kennedy Space Center.
NASA could set up a motor testing platform and use the Mission Control facility and engineers.
The weather is probably a little nicer down there now. That's an added perk!
Seriously.

slevin1

My Feedback: (23)

Quote: "The Castle Creations ESCs are full of awesome features. In addition to the data logging, you can set limits on many parameters like voltage drop, current limit, start-up speed, Pulse-width modulation speed, motor timing, etc. Although the ICE HV 160 ESC is rated for 160 amps continuous with a 5mph air flow, it has much more capability that will not be advertised. This is why my plan is to achieve around 9KW peak power."

Greg,

Please specify what you mean by "...much more capability that will not be advertised."

Saul

maverickma

CC is known to leave some "headroom" on their ESCs.

Greg Covey

Saul,

maverickma is correct about the headroom.

The Castle Creations ICE ESCs are rated for a continuous current draw with a 5mph air flow. The short term peak ratings are not published. For normal flight, how often do you fly at full throttle? Typically, we hit full throttle for 5-10 second bursts when going vertical or doing a knife edge or a fast fly-by (especially in jets). With a little experience, and a few tips from others using the same controller, you can make use of this extra capability.

Let's look at some of the CastleLink screens I took snapshots of when downloading my data logging. These are the actual settings of my ICE HV 160 ESC for the CA120-70 motor. I went along the tabs and took a snapshot of each one.

The last two images are help screens seen from pressing the question mark in the blue circle. For Current Limiting, you have 5 choices. I typically leave mine at normal which is the default setting. Competitors and demo pilots sometimes disable the current limit, after they are comfortable with their setup parameters, so that the ESC cannot shut down unexpectedly.

The last help screen shows the various ways to trip a low-voltage cutoff. I often disable this on larger models because it has been my experience that the planes will no longer fly before you get to the "danger zone" on the LiPo cell voltage. 3.0v/cell reduces longevity, 3.2v/cell is fair, 3.4v/cell is what I typically strive for as a minimum after a full flight. During a full throttle pass, it is ok for the LiPo cell to dip below 3v momentarily and then recover once throttled back. You typically don't want your motor to cut out during this period. With the voltage cutoff disabled, the plane becomes noticeably wimpy when the voltage drops to 3.4v/cell. The sensitivity of the voltage dip depends on many parameters like pack capacity, C-rating, aggressiveness of setup, and how long into the flight you perform the maneuver. In my Ultimate setup, I don't think the 15AH capacity at 30C will have much of a voltage dip so I initially used the default settings of Auto-cutoff at 3.0v/cell.

Image #7 is my new favorite feature of the CC ICE ESCs...Data Logging. I no longer need to stick my face and fingers close to the power system running at full throttle to get a measurement. The data is saved even after the ESC has been turned off! Once downloaded from the ESC, with the motor disabled, a separate application allows you to view the downloaded data. The graph can get very "busy" with all the parameters so even if you logged all the data, the viewer allows you to remove it from the displayed graph. I usually disable a bunch of the less important parameters before I save a graph as a .jpg image for posting. The data logging is saved in sessions (or ESC power-ups) and acts as a FIFO (First In First Out) buffer that continuously wraps around. As you can see from the screen image, a 5 sample/second rate can log all the paramters for over 15 minutes without wrapping around.

Image #8 is another one of the great features of the Castle ESCs in that they can be reprogrammed for new firmware. I don't always upgrade to the latest beta version because the changes are often for helis, not planes. If you have a problem with a newer version of beta firmware, you can always revert back to an older version.

The CastleLink application also detects when a new version of PC software is available. It directs you to the Castle Creations downloading page and upgrades the application seamlessly. They currently only have a version for PCs but they are also working on a version for the MAC.

slevin1

My Feedback: (23)

Thank you Greg.

Saul

slevin1

My Feedback: (23)

Greg I just watched the video of the test run and man was it impressive!!

Saul

Greg Covey

Thanks, Saul. How about that 67 year old lunatic (Papa Jeff) that wants to be the "expert electrical & mechanical engineer on site"? He handled that 45lb plate with ease. Now he wants to mount the test box to a toboggan and go power sledding!


We'll see if it can sustain a run on 11s this Saturday. The forecast is for about 10 degrees so the prop blast into the garage is gonna hurt!

slevin1

My Feedback: (23)

Giant scale sledding! Is the toboggan an ARF or RTF? :-)

Saul

LDHFlyguy

Saul,
Wait to you see the sequel featuring a Tug-o-War between the Turnigy and Greg's Expedition !

I hope Greg does some tests of longer duration and with a shorter prop done at 12S. I'd like to read about the results.
I think the most important test will be that of longevity. I'd like to hear how the motor is doing
after a few hours of flying in the summer.

Come on Greg....we're a rootin' for ya !
I already own a CCHV ICE 160 (v.2) that I bought a few months ago; but, I have no plane or motor for it.
If you decide the Turnigy is a wise investment, I may buy one and put it in the new 3D Hobbies 104" Slick along with the 160.

papajeff

[quote]ORIGINAL: Greg Covey

Thanks, Saul. How about that 67 year old lunatic (Papa Jeff) that wants to be the "expert electrical & mechanical engineer on site"? He handled that 45lb plate with ease. Now he wants to mount the test box to a toboggan and go power sledding!

No...No...No, not me, Greg, I finally was able to upload
the photo of your new, on site, power test expert. Check
post #111 again. He really wants to help you with that
tobggan test run as he used to be aBobsled driverin the
1943 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid. He is available and
will help you for just a decent meal. I'll bring him with me
for the next test session, OK?

LDHFlyguy

Greg,
Could we please have a video of Mr. papajeff being pulled on the sled by the big motor?

Pack Leader

Greg, I second that, would love to see Papa Jeff going for a ride!!

Thanks,
Dan

Greg Covey

Oh boy...please don't encourage him!

As long as Jeff remembers to take his meds tomorrow morning we'll have a cold but safe power test.