Need help with prop tracking...
02-24-2012 | 11:16 AM
#26
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From: washington twp.,
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RE: Need help with prop tracking...
This site is starting to ps me off. I type a post for 5 mins and add a photo and it gets timed out!!!! I'll try again.
Mustangman,
You need a reamer that has a very narrow taper. Just any reamer won't work. You will take off to much material. I got mine from my LHS. Here is their info and a pic of the one I have. It's made by "ENKAY". Flightline Hobbies, Lake Orion, Michigan Toll free....877-891-8359. John would be glad to ship you one.
Mustangman,
You need a reamer that has a very narrow taper. Just any reamer won't work. You will take off to much material. I got mine from my LHS. Here is their info and a pic of the one I have. It's made by "ENKAY". Flightline Hobbies, Lake Orion, Michigan Toll free....877-891-8359. John would be glad to ship you one.
02-24-2012 | 11:29 AM
#27
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From: washington twp.,
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RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: rgburrill
Ditto on the tracking. Props have a slight tendancy to distort while turning anyway. And the aerodynamic characteristics change dramatically from the center to the tip.
I have never seriously considered a tapered prop reamer due to the very large probablity of error. And wearing open the hole. I have two stepped reamers, one standard and one metric. That way my hole is the correct size through the entire hub - and if I screw up I throw it away.
ORIGINAL: mustangman177
Just came across this thread...... Have I been doing something wrong ?
I've been flying for some 22 years now, and not once bothered to check for the ''tracking'' of a prop, although I do spend alot of time balancing each and every prop that comes in before it goes on the plane.
So how critical is this ????? I fly only sport-for fun only, no competition. I do want the most out of my planes and equipment though. Guess I'll go home and track all my propellers now. Great googly-gock !!! Something more to worry about !!
OK So now I want a tapered prop reamer. Cannot find one listed-Only step reamers. Where can I get one ?
Just came across this thread...... Have I been doing something wrong ?
I've been flying for some 22 years now, and not once bothered to check for the ''tracking'' of a prop, although I do spend alot of time balancing each and every prop that comes in before it goes on the plane.
So how critical is this ????? I fly only sport-for fun only, no competition. I do want the most out of my planes and equipment though. Guess I'll go home and track all my propellers now. Great googly-gock !!! Something more to worry about !!
OK So now I want a tapered prop reamer. Cannot find one listed-Only step reamers. Where can I get one ?
I have never seriously considered a tapered prop reamer due to the very large probablity of error. And wearing open the hole. I have two stepped reamers, one standard and one metric. That way my hole is the correct size through the entire hub - and if I screw up I throw it away.
What if the hole is not straight ( square) thru the hub. You ream it with a stepped reamer and then all you have is the same size hole, but still going thru crooked. With a tapered hole, but still snug at the back, the crooked hole is no longer an issue. The slight taper allows the prop nut and washer to press the prop hub flat to the drive washer. If I had to throw out every prop I have had with a crooked hole I wouldn't have very many.
02-24-2012 | 11:46 AM
#28
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: tacx
Summerwind...
All good info, but you are referring to checking the engine drive washer and shaft. I think we are mostly discussing the prop. If you have a prop that has a rear hub surface that is not perfectly parallel to the prop blades then that prop is not going to track correctly. The only way one can check a prop for tracking is to use a prop. I understand the fact that if the crank or drive washer is out of wack this would cause a tracking problem,but most guys don't have the proper equipment to check the precise measurements of an engines components.
Summerwind...
All good info, but you are referring to checking the engine drive washer and shaft. I think we are mostly discussing the prop. If you have a prop that has a rear hub surface that is not perfectly parallel to the prop blades then that prop is not going to track correctly. The only way one can check a prop for tracking is to use a prop. I understand the fact that if the crank or drive washer is out of wack this would cause a tracking problem,but most guys don't have the proper equipment to check the precise measurements of an engines components.
so saying that the only way to check a prop for tracking is to use a prop is not true............there are a couple other ways to check a prop for tracking and truing one up as well, but it is not by mounting it to the engine's crank and then going after it.
good observation tho..................but myself and probably a few other racers will prove you wrong...................
at the very least, and this is good ol common sense, the drive washer needs to be checked with a known straight edge that is true..............only then can you check a prop for tracking as you describe. your idea is only going to induce more inaccuracy than it will good.
02-24-2012 | 12:07 PM
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From: Cisne,
IL
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
Grish Brothers made a Nylon Tornado prop 9 X 4 that I would use on my OS 25 AX PBF for combat flying. They would hit the ground or other planes and never break. You could actually take the tip of the blade and double it back to the hub and would not break. They have since been dis-continued, company went out of business.
But- look at the prop while running from above and you could see the prop flex considerably from idle to full power. This had to have bad tracking !!
But- look at the prop while running from above and you could see the prop flex considerably from idle to full power. This had to have bad tracking !!
02-24-2012 | 01:59 PM
#33
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RE: Need help with prop tracking...
never use a wood prop on a 4 stroke, they are not heavy enough and dont give a good enough flywheel effect, i have seen engines that will not idle with a wood prop and are fine with a heavier prop.
regarding the tracking,at revs the prop flex and forwadt pull and centrifical force will change everything and you can only hope that the prop thickness and material density are identical side to side
you can see this happen when you rev the motor, much more important to balance the prop including the hub, i allways err on the side of the hole being larger than to tight, as far as the aeroplane
shaking this varies with different designs and manufactures, all will shake to a degree at idle but smooth out as the revs increase, arfs seem to shake more than a sturdier built kit or scratch built
imho
<br type="_moz" />
regarding the tracking,at revs the prop flex and forwadt pull and centrifical force will change everything and you can only hope that the prop thickness and material density are identical side to side
you can see this happen when you rev the motor, much more important to balance the prop including the hub, i allways err on the side of the hole being larger than to tight, as far as the aeroplane
shaking this varies with different designs and manufactures, all will shake to a degree at idle but smooth out as the revs increase, arfs seem to shake more than a sturdier built kit or scratch built
imho
<br type="_moz" />
02-24-2012 | 04:55 PM
#35
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
I can't comment on the prop tracking as I have never done that but do balance every prop.
I can comment on the prop striking which is likely occurring during landing. Loose that nose gear and make it a taildragger, which is much easier to land.
Tricycle gear is for trainers and jets and not much else.
The Pamster
AMA 202345
I can comment on the prop striking which is likely occurring during landing. Loose that nose gear and make it a taildragger, which is much easier to land.
Tricycle gear is for trainers and jets and not much else.
The Pamster
AMA 202345
02-24-2012 | 05:19 PM
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From: Monmouth County,
NJ
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: thepamster
Loose that nose gear and make it a taildragger
Loose that nose gear and make it a taildragger
Needless to say, I've now realised why I should really keep the prop off the ground
Mike
<br type="_moz" />
02-24-2012 | 05:22 PM
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From: South Florida
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: jetblast96
Tacx, actually I have had a lot of prop strikes with the FL70, come to think of it, at least once every time I go to the field... (short gear, bumpy grass runway. I've been thinking of going to an 11" 3 blade to add clearance). I put my spare, never-run propeller on, without the back plate (stock plastic spinner), and saw that it was about 1/16" tracking difference; I think that's acceptable, but what do you think? I then put the backplate back on along with the new propeller and the tracking was back to about 1/8"...
As far as the Saito, I realized that I've been using the wrong reamer (7mm crankshaft, and I've been using the standard reamer. I am such an idiot sometimes...) so I'll have to buy a metric reamer and try again. I'll get back to you all on that.
So again, is 1/16" difference bad for the FL70? If I go ahead and get another Tru Turn spinner, it may stay that way. I need a spinner; I use an electric starter and I like my fingers too much to hand start.
<br type="_moz" />
Tacx, actually I have had a lot of prop strikes with the FL70, come to think of it, at least once every time I go to the field... (short gear, bumpy grass runway. I've been thinking of going to an 11" 3 blade to add clearance). I put my spare, never-run propeller on, without the back plate (stock plastic spinner), and saw that it was about 1/16" tracking difference; I think that's acceptable, but what do you think? I then put the backplate back on along with the new propeller and the tracking was back to about 1/8"...
As far as the Saito, I realized that I've been using the wrong reamer (7mm crankshaft, and I've been using the standard reamer. I am such an idiot sometimes...) so I'll have to buy a metric reamer and try again. I'll get back to you all on that.
So again, is 1/16" difference bad for the FL70? If I go ahead and get another Tru Turn spinner, it may stay that way. I need a spinner; I use an electric starter and I like my fingers too much to hand start.
<br type="_moz" />
Once you have a prop strike you should forget about trying to achieve even tracking with that prop. Striking the prop not only chips it, but bends it as well. Unless you have highly precise measuring equipment (and we don't need that), you will never be able to detectthe difference between the bladeswith the human eye.
Only attempt to measure tracking with a new prop. 1/8 of an inch difference would be highly unusual for a new prop. I have never come across anything but a 0 difference with a new prop. 30~40 years ago there were differences in prop bladesbecause the technology wasn't there to make prefect props. 40 years ago, I believe the wooden MasterAirscrew props were hand finished.Those had visible differences between the two blades.
02-24-2012 | 05:59 PM
#38
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
i wonder if Micheal who is flying in this video has any prop tracking issues................he surely doesn't use a taper reamer though[:-]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbME7...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbME7...layer_embedded
02-24-2012 | 06:54 PM
#39
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
Tracking?. holy hell, I never in 20 some odd years ever worried about it!!!.. you want to see some serious blade wobble, run it up while looking straight down on the blade!!!!...master airscrew moves alllllllllllllllllllllll over the place!!..lol...
I'll have to look into this...i never thought in a million years..
I'll have to look into this...i never thought in a million years..
02-24-2012 | 07:48 PM
#40
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From: washington twp.,
MI
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: summerwind
checking prop tracking is a moot point if you don't know for sure that the drive washer is square to the crankshaft.
so saying that the only way to check a prop for tracking is to use a prop is not true............there are a couple other ways to check a prop for tracking and truing one up as well, but it is not by mounting it to the engine's crank and then going after it.
good observation tho..................but myself and probably a few other racers will prove you wrong...................
at the very least, and this is good ol common sense, the drive washer needs to be checked with a known straight edge that is true..............only then can you check a prop for tracking as you describe. your idea is only going to induce more inaccuracy than it will good.
ORIGINAL: tacx
Summerwind...
All good info, but you are referring to checking the engine drive washer and shaft. I think we are mostly discussing the prop. If you have a prop that has a rear hub surface that is not perfectly parallel to the prop blades then that prop is not going to track correctly. The only way one can check a prop for tracking is to use a prop. I understand the fact that if the crank or drive washer is out of wack this would cause a tracking problem,but most guys don't have the proper equipment to check the precise measurements of an engines components.
Summerwind...
All good info, but you are referring to checking the engine drive washer and shaft. I think we are mostly discussing the prop. If you have a prop that has a rear hub surface that is not perfectly parallel to the prop blades then that prop is not going to track correctly. The only way one can check a prop for tracking is to use a prop. I understand the fact that if the crank or drive washer is out of wack this would cause a tracking problem,but most guys don't have the proper equipment to check the precise measurements of an engines components.
so saying that the only way to check a prop for tracking is to use a prop is not true............there are a couple other ways to check a prop for tracking and truing one up as well, but it is not by mounting it to the engine's crank and then going after it.
good observation tho..................but myself and probably a few other racers will prove you wrong...................
at the very least, and this is good ol common sense, the drive washer needs to be checked with a known straight edge that is true..............only then can you check a prop for tracking as you describe. your idea is only going to induce more inaccuracy than it will good.
OK. I want to know how many of you out there have checked your drive washer and crankshaft for trueness ???
Making a statement like that is like saying " I won't have my tires on my car balanced until I have my engines crankshaft and axles checked. !!!
02-24-2012 | 09:04 PM
#41
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RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: summerwind
i wonder if Micheal who is flying in this video has any prop tracking issues................he surely doesn't use a taper reamer though[:-]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbME7...layer_embedded
i wonder if Micheal who is flying in this video has any prop tracking issues................he surely doesn't use a taper reamer though[:-]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbME7...layer_embedded
Was there a plane in that video??? I only saw it at launch!
Kurt
02-25-2012 | 04:45 AM
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From: Cisne,
IL
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: cublover
Tracking?. holy hell, I never in 20 some odd years ever worried about it!!!.. you want to see some serious blade wobble, run it up while looking straight down on the blade!!!!...master airscrew moves alllllllllllllllllllllll over the place!!..lol...
I'll have to look into this...i never thought in a million years..
Tracking?. holy hell, I never in 20 some odd years ever worried about it!!!.. you want to see some serious blade wobble, run it up while looking straight down on the blade!!!!...master airscrew moves alllllllllllllllllllllll over the place!!..lol...
I'll have to look into this...i never thought in a million years..
Ditto on this thought until I read this post.......
After work I checked 4 of my planes, 2 with 11 x 7 apc and 2 with master airscrew 9 x 6 props and all were spot on. No variation from one blade to the other. Will check the other props as I put them on.
Just something else to worry about
Cary
02-25-2012 | 04:48 AM
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From: Cisne,
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RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: tacx
This site is starting to ps me off. I type a post for 5 mins and add a photo and it gets timed out!!!! I'll try again.
Mustangman,
You need a reamer that has a very narrow taper. Just any reamer won't work. You will take off to much material. I got mine from my LHS. Here is their info and a pic of the one I have. It's made by ''ENKAY''. Flightline Hobbies, Lake Orion, Michigan Toll free....877-891-8359. John would be glad to ship you one.
This site is starting to ps me off. I type a post for 5 mins and add a photo and it gets timed out!!!! I'll try again.
Mustangman,
You need a reamer that has a very narrow taper. Just any reamer won't work. You will take off to much material. I got mine from my LHS. Here is their info and a pic of the one I have. It's made by ''ENKAY''. Flightline Hobbies, Lake Orion, Michigan Toll free....877-891-8359. John would be glad to ship you one.
tacx:
Thanks for the time you took to take the picture and provide the information. I'm sure you have helped more people than me in providing this information and I hope John at Flightline Hobbies has a new shipment of reamers coming in because he is going to need it !!!
Thanks again
Cary
02-25-2012 | 06:00 AM
#45
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From: Jackson, MI
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
Once the engine starts, how do you know they stay in track?
I'll bet they do, even without static tracking.And worrying about thrust washer runout, in this day and age?
I've never seen either in 40+ years, must be a noob phenomenon...
</p>
02-25-2012 | 06:39 AM
#46
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
Tracking is important on full scale aircraft because they have multi-cylinder engines that fire more that once per rev. Our single cylinder engines however always fire with the prop at the same position in its rotation (every one or two cycles). That means the explosive force is always at the same place and might just be the wrong place for your plane. Have you tried putting your prop at a different angle? Full scale will do this at time to see if it has an effect on vibration. I know we always like to have our prop at a certain place for flip starting but it might be the wrong place for you. Try rotating it 60 degrees and use an electric starter.
02-25-2012 | 06:46 AM
#47
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: tacx
OK. I want to know how many of you out there have checked your drive washer and crankshaft for trueness ???
Making a statement like that is like saying " I won't have my tires on my car balanced until I have my engines crankshaft and axles checked. !!!
ORIGINAL: summerwind
checking prop tracking is a moot point if you don't know for sure that the drive washer is square to the crankshaft.
so saying that the only way to check a prop for tracking is to use a prop is not true............there are a couple other ways to check a prop for tracking and truing one up as well, but it is not by mounting it to the engine's crank and then going after it.
good observation tho..................but myself and probably a few other racers will prove you wrong...................
at the very least, and this is good ol common sense, the drive washer needs to be checked with a known straight edge that is true..............only then can you check a prop for tracking as you describe. your idea is only going to induce more inaccuracy than it will good.
ORIGINAL: tacx
Summerwind...
All good info, but you are referring to checking the engine drive washer and shaft. I think we are mostly discussing the prop. If you have a prop that has a rear hub surface that is not perfectly parallel to the prop blades then that prop is not going to track correctly. The only way one can check a prop for tracking is to use a prop. I understand the fact that if the crank or drive washer is out of wack this would cause a tracking problem,but most guys don't have the proper equipment to check the precise measurements of an engines components.
Summerwind...
All good info, but you are referring to checking the engine drive washer and shaft. I think we are mostly discussing the prop. If you have a prop that has a rear hub surface that is not perfectly parallel to the prop blades then that prop is not going to track correctly. The only way one can check a prop for tracking is to use a prop. I understand the fact that if the crank or drive washer is out of wack this would cause a tracking problem,but most guys don't have the proper equipment to check the precise measurements of an engines components.
so saying that the only way to check a prop for tracking is to use a prop is not true............there are a couple other ways to check a prop for tracking and truing one up as well, but it is not by mounting it to the engine's crank and then going after it.
good observation tho..................but myself and probably a few other racers will prove you wrong...................
at the very least, and this is good ol common sense, the drive washer needs to be checked with a known straight edge that is true..............only then can you check a prop for tracking as you describe. your idea is only going to induce more inaccuracy than it will good.
OK. I want to know how many of you out there have checked your drive washer and crankshaft for trueness ???
Making a statement like that is like saying " I won't have my tires on my car balanced until I have my engines crankshaft and axles checked. !!!
02-25-2012 | 06:55 AM
#48
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
There is no advantage to having a straight hole which would be the rationale for using a stepped reamer. I think the perception is that a tapered hole like you'll get with a tapered reamer will allow wobble, but the hole is not a load bearing surface. All it does is center the prop on the drive hub. Once the prop is centered and tightened down, the hole could be a half inch wide and would have no effect on how the prop performed because at that point the friction with the drive hub is the only interface between the prop and the plane. I actually ran a prop once a while back that had the hole reamed out too big. It had been reamed for a different engine but was still a good prop. I put it on, eyeballed it center in the hole, and tightened it down. Once the prop nut was torqued, you'd never have known the hole was out of spec because the prop was properly centered and balanced. I ran it until I decided to try a different size and it went back into storage to await its next mission.
02-25-2012 | 09:02 AM
#49
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From: washington twp.,
MI
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
ORIGINAL: jester_s1
There is no advantage to having a straight hole which would be the rationale for using a stepped reamer. I think the perception is that a tapered hole like you'll get with a tapered reamer will allow wobble, but the hole is not a load bearing surface. All it does is center the prop on the drive hub. Once the prop is centered and tightened down, the hole could be a half inch wide and would have no effect on how the prop performed because at that point the friction with the drive hub is the only interface between the prop and the plane. I actually ran a prop once a while back that had the hole reamed out too big. It had been reamed for a different engine but was still a good prop. I put it on, eyeballed it center in the hole, and tightened it down. Once the prop nut was torqued, you'd never have known the hole was out of spec because the prop was properly centered and balanced. I ran it until I decided to try a different size and it went back into storage to await its next mission.
There is no advantage to having a straight hole which would be the rationale for using a stepped reamer. I think the perception is that a tapered hole like you'll get with a tapered reamer will allow wobble, but the hole is not a load bearing surface. All it does is center the prop on the drive hub. Once the prop is centered and tightened down, the hole could be a half inch wide and would have no effect on how the prop performed because at that point the friction with the drive hub is the only interface between the prop and the plane. I actually ran a prop once a while back that had the hole reamed out too big. It had been reamed for a different engine but was still a good prop. I put it on, eyeballed it center in the hole, and tightened it down. Once the prop nut was torqued, you'd never have known the hole was out of spec because the prop was properly centered and balanced. I ran it until I decided to try a different size and it went back into storage to await its next mission.
Jester,
Thanks for the back up. Icouldn't have said it better. Once the prop nut tightens the prop hub against the drive washer the hole is pretty much out of the picture. I will say that when I ream my props I like to get the rear of the hub (smaller part of the hole) snug on the crank.
02-25-2012 | 09:51 AM
#50
My Feedback: (11)
RE: Need help with prop tracking...
I would never use a long tapered prop reamer or any other for that matter. I use a drill press and the proper sized drill steel to match the engine's shaft size. I have the proper tool, so I use it... I have heard that drill presses can be used for other things too!
Maybe you could use a jack hammer to drive some finishing nails?
Maybe you could use a jack hammer to drive some finishing nails?
ORIGINAL: tacx
This site is starting to ps me off. I type a post for 5 mins and add a photo and it gets timed out!!!! I'll try again.
Mustangman,
You need a reamer that has a very narrow taper. Just any reamer won't work. You will take off to much material. I got mine from my LHS. Here is their info and a pic of the one I have. It's made by ''ENKAY''. Flightline Hobbies, Lake Orion, Michigan Toll free....877-891-8359. John would be glad to ship you one.
This site is starting to ps me off. I type a post for 5 mins and add a photo and it gets timed out!!!! I'll try again.
Mustangman,
You need a reamer that has a very narrow taper. Just any reamer won't work. You will take off to much material. I got mine from my LHS. Here is their info and a pic of the one I have. It's made by ''ENKAY''. Flightline Hobbies, Lake Orion, Michigan Toll free....877-891-8359. John would be glad to ship you one.
