fa300t advise strange noise
07-09-2012, 01:52 PM
#26
Senior Member
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
I once had a guy bring me a transmission from a 48 Panhead Hog (Harley Big Twin). It had a tight spot every 2 3/4 turns or some such odd frequency. I surmissed that it was a burr on a gear that only meshed at that particular frequency. Sure enough I was able to find a spot on one of the cogs that only meshed every X x/x turns of the input shaft. I dressed off the cog & all was well after I fixed several other faults that came to light when I had the mixer apart.
The symtom here is every 180 degrees of crank rotation. That almost has to be a burr or maybe imroperly cut teeth on the crank pinion as it comes under a cam gear every 180 degrees. If it were a single it would be every 360 dgrees but the 300T has a cam gear located every 180 degrees of crank rotation.
Possible causes of tight lash every 180 degrees of crank rotaion:
1. Both cam gears have burrs/faults at 90 degree orientation to the cam timing every 180 degrees (of the cam gear) that would mesh W/the pinion every 1/2 rotation of the crank. (extremely unlikely)
2. One of the cam gears has 4 burrs/faults located every 90 degrees that contact the crank pinion every 1/2 rotation. (highly unlikely)
3. A burr/fault at 1 spot on the crank pinion that meshes W/a cam gear every 1/2 rotation. (the most likely cause of the symptom)
The above mentioned pinion fault could be the result of a factory defect or crash damage.
POST EDITED: After some thought I realized that in the 1st scenerio for cam gear faults to occur every 180 degrees of crank rotation, the faults would have to be oriented at 90 degrees to respective cam timing & occur 2 X at 180 degrees on each cam gear. A highly unlikely scenerio.
The symtom here is every 180 degrees of crank rotation. That almost has to be a burr or maybe imroperly cut teeth on the crank pinion as it comes under a cam gear every 180 degrees. If it were a single it would be every 360 dgrees but the 300T has a cam gear located every 180 degrees of crank rotation.
Possible causes of tight lash every 180 degrees of crank rotaion:
1. Both cam gears have burrs/faults at 90 degree orientation to the cam timing every 180 degrees (of the cam gear) that would mesh W/the pinion every 1/2 rotation of the crank. (extremely unlikely)
2. One of the cam gears has 4 burrs/faults located every 90 degrees that contact the crank pinion every 1/2 rotation. (highly unlikely)
3. A burr/fault at 1 spot on the crank pinion that meshes W/a cam gear every 1/2 rotation. (the most likely cause of the symptom)
The above mentioned pinion fault could be the result of a factory defect or crash damage.
POST EDITED: After some thought I realized that in the 1st scenerio for cam gear faults to occur every 180 degrees of crank rotation, the faults would have to be oriented at 90 degrees to respective cam timing & occur 2 X at 180 degrees on each cam gear. A highly unlikely scenerio.
07-09-2012, 02:08 PM
#27
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Jackson, MI
Posts: 2,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
I'd ship it back and specify it has to be returned to service by a reputable shop, preferably Hobby Services. His comments sound like 'ABC Lawnmower Repair & Donut Shoppe says it's OK' won't hold water. If it's a quality motor, he should have no problem relisting. If it goes to HS and gets a clean bill of health (doubtful-they'll see those pry marks as $ signs!), kick in half on a pre-agreed cost, say $30.
Take photos, borrow a dial indicator if you don't own one and check runout, make a video of turning the motor over by hand & point out resistance felt, etc. Document everything! I really wouldn't want it with the known problems. There are always better buys on the 'bay.
Take photos, borrow a dial indicator if you don't own one and check runout, make a video of turning the motor over by hand & point out resistance felt, etc. Document everything! I really wouldn't want it with the known problems. There are always better buys on the 'bay.
07-09-2012, 03:54 PM
#28
Senior Member
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150
If I had $600 to risk, I would toss that out as a bid on this one about 30 seconds before it closed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NO-RESERVE-S...06%26rk%3D1%26
The discription is ''new/unused'' so one would have a bit more to dispute if it turned out to not be as discribed. It would be easy to tell by looking into the exhuast ports to tell if it had been run.
ORIGINAL: a70eliminator
Thanks srT thats the info was afraid of hearing, darn I finally get a good deal and this is what i get.
Here's a link to the auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130715238387...84.m1439.l2649
Notice the description, i can't believe it's true, this motor had to have taken a hit.
Thanks srT thats the info was afraid of hearing, darn I finally get a good deal and this is what i get.
Here's a link to the auction.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130715238387...84.m1439.l2649
Notice the description, i can't believe it's true, this motor had to have taken a hit.
If I had $600 to risk, I would toss that out as a bid on this one about 30 seconds before it closed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NO-RESERVE-S...06%26rk%3D1%26
The discription is ''new/unused'' so one would have a bit more to dispute if it turned out to not be as discribed. It would be easy to tell by looking into the exhuast ports to tell if it had been run.
Well I bid all I had. $611 + the $20 shipping & got out bid. Placed my bid W/10 seconds left.
The engine went for $669.99 which is a bit more than 1/2 of the price new.
Oh well.
07-09-2012, 04:54 PM
#29
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150
What raises the red flags to me is the fact that he gets the ''notchy'' feeling every 180 degrees. If increasing the lash W/more gaskets relieves the tight lash at these 180 degree locations, then each cam gear is going to have excess lash for the remaining portions of the 360 degree rotation between tight spots. Also remember that the tight pinion fault will be occuring 2X in every rotation of the cam gear.
The symptoms points to a fault in the crankshaft pinion that would come under the opposing cam gears every 180 degrees. It's not likely that each cam gear has a fualt in exactly the same orientation.
While shimming the cam housings might treat the symptomes, it will not correct a serious defect in the crank pinion.
It would be interesting to know at what cycle stroke (EX/IN/compression/power) the notchy feeling occurs. A crank pinion fault could occur at any point in the cycle.
ORIGINAL: init4fun
To the Op I say ,
If your engine sounds like the 270 in the video , then it's got gear lash issues and if your not willing to adjust the gear lash , I'd send it back .
My 270 makes no such sound at all when running , all you can hear is the exhaust . Now , when I took mine apart to replace the bad bearings , the two cam/lifter holders had different amounts of thin gaskets under them , the left cyl had one and the right had three , if I recall correctly , and that obviously reflects the cam gear clearance having been set at the time of manufacture . I made darned sure to return the same number of gaskets(being used as spacers) to each cam holder , and have no whining noise .
To the Op I say ,
If your engine sounds like the 270 in the video , then it's got gear lash issues and if your not willing to adjust the gear lash , I'd send it back .
My 270 makes no such sound at all when running , all you can hear is the exhaust . Now , when I took mine apart to replace the bad bearings , the two cam/lifter holders had different amounts of thin gaskets under them , the left cyl had one and the right had three , if I recall correctly , and that obviously reflects the cam gear clearance having been set at the time of manufacture . I made darned sure to return the same number of gaskets(being used as spacers) to each cam holder , and have no whining noise .
What raises the red flags to me is the fact that he gets the ''notchy'' feeling every 180 degrees. If increasing the lash W/more gaskets relieves the tight lash at these 180 degree locations, then each cam gear is going to have excess lash for the remaining portions of the 360 degree rotation between tight spots. Also remember that the tight pinion fault will be occuring 2X in every rotation of the cam gear.
The symptoms points to a fault in the crankshaft pinion that would come under the opposing cam gears every 180 degrees. It's not likely that each cam gear has a fualt in exactly the same orientation.
While shimming the cam housings might treat the symptomes, it will not correct a serious defect in the crank pinion.
It would be interesting to know at what cycle stroke (EX/IN/compression/power) the notchy feeling occurs. A crank pinion fault could occur at any point in the cycle.
07-09-2012, 07:03 PM
#30
Senior Member
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
ORIGINAL: init4fun
A very good point indeed ! ....... Yes , improper lash would be improper lash for the full rotation of the gear , and not at exactly every half turn . So this does leave the OP with a real operational problem with it , and I'm happy to see that the OP will send it back . I do notice , by looking at the parts identification for my 270 , that the cam drive gear on the crankshaft seems replaceable , but again , I'd let the seller worry about that .
A very good point indeed ! ....... Yes , improper lash would be improper lash for the full rotation of the gear , and not at exactly every half turn . So this does leave the OP with a real operational problem with it , and I'm happy to see that the OP will send it back . I do notice , by looking at the parts identification for my 270 , that the cam drive gear on the crankshaft seems replaceable , but again , I'd let the seller worry about that .
I checked & the 300 does not show a replacable pinion gear.
07-10-2012, 07:01 AM
#32
Senior Member
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy
Here is a shot of the .56 crank with the removeable cam drive gear removed and a shot of the 300 crank.
Here is a shot of the .56 crank with the removeable cam drive gear removed and a shot of the 300 crank.
Probably a production cost savings, but you would think that if the tooling already existed, they would have kept the cranks/forgings the same just grind the throws @ a different stroke..
Still it would eliminate some machining steps so over the production run it would save $$$$.
07-10-2012, 07:09 AM
#33
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
I had tried to post a picture of the parts list for my 270 that shows the removable gear , but the server didn't like the file for some reason . And yes , I'll bet that production cost probablly figured into the change . In looking at the shaft in Hobbsy's picture , the non removable pinion of the 300 does indeed look different from the 270's gear . The 270 also employed an "index pin" in the gear setup as well , so they eliminated two parts by making the crank and gear as one unit ...
07-10-2012, 07:11 AM
#34
Senior Member
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
ORIGINAL: a70eliminator
Here's the sellers response, seems honest enough. Looks like I'll have to just eat the shipping cost and all I'll be left with a sour taste in my mouth when it comes to ebay deals. I have to at least ship it back so the guy can have it checked out, right? I have it packaged and ready for the trip.
Please return motor and I will have it checked out. If problem is as you say, I will refund your money. If I had known the crankshaft was bent, I would have disclosed that. I will work to rectify the problem. Sorry for getting back to you so late, I was in Florida at my brother's funeral. Thanks, George
I'm good with that, the motor if you turn the crank has a definate hard spot each half way around, it feels like the crank to cam gear is binding, the motor has obviously been apart as there are plyer marks on some of the bolts. A new crank for this motor costs $200 bucks!
I have the motor boxed and was just waiting on your response, I'll send it tomorrow.
Here's the sellers response, seems honest enough. Looks like I'll have to just eat the shipping cost and all I'll be left with a sour taste in my mouth when it comes to ebay deals. I have to at least ship it back so the guy can have it checked out, right? I have it packaged and ready for the trip.
Please return motor and I will have it checked out. If problem is as you say, I will refund your money. If I had known the crankshaft was bent, I would have disclosed that. I will work to rectify the problem. Sorry for getting back to you so late, I was in Florida at my brother's funeral. Thanks, George
I'm good with that, the motor if you turn the crank has a definate hard spot each half way around, it feels like the crank to cam gear is binding, the motor has obviously been apart as there are plyer marks on some of the bolts. A new crank for this motor costs $200 bucks!
I have the motor boxed and was just waiting on your response, I'll send it tomorrow.
I have had to use a dremel W/a cut off wheel on more than 1 Saito engine when the cylinder base bolts wouldn't come loose & stripped out the socket, but pliers? Jeese Louise you can cut the head off & get a replacement metric allen head screw at most well stocked hdwe stores.
Glad to see you are able to return the engine. No returns does not apply to damaged or misrepresented goods. You might have been able to repaiir it but then again once you start monkeying W/it you are SOL if you find that there is major damage inside.
If the crank snout is bent I would be very concerned that the crank throws might also be twisted & who knows what knd of stress was placed on the rods?
It's one thing to repair an engine that was damaged by one's self, but an e-bay purchase is quite another story.
07-10-2012, 09:47 AM
#35
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
To bugger up the cylender mounting bolts shows poor form and laziness on the part of the former owner , , , , , Yes , they are not able to be taken out with a standard allen wrench , the bolt is too far under the cooling fins for an uncut wrench to fit into ......... BUT ! , , anyone working on this engine should at least possess the skills and know how to make a shorter wrench to fit the application !
The guy knew not to cut a wrench to fit and yet he was going to go into the crankcase ??? ..... For what ?? , , had he a clue of what the problem was , and then decided to dump his junk off on some unsuspecting buyer from feebay ???
The more I think about it , the seller is a crook and the OP darned right well should report the transaction to feebay even if the seller DOES refund the purchase price !!! In my opinion , since the engine is not as represented , , the seller ought to eat all shipping costs , as well !
07-10-2012, 12:44 PM
#36
Senior Member
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
ORIGINAL: init4fun
To bugger up the cylender mounting bolts shows poor form and laziness on the part of the former owner , , , , , Yes , they are not able to be taken out with a standard allen wrench , the bolt is too far under the cooling fins for an uncut wrench to fit into ......... BUT ! , , anyone working on this engine should at least possess the skills and know how to make a shorter wrench to fit the application !
The guy knew not to cut a wrench to fit and yet he was going to go into the crankcase ??? ..... For what ?? , , had he a clue of what the problem was , and then decided to dump his junk off on some unsuspecting buyer from feebay ???
The more I think about it , the seller is a crook and the OP darned right well should report the transaction to feebay even if the seller DOES refund the purchase price !!! In my opinion , since the engine is not as represented , , the seller ought to eat all shipping costs , as well !
To bugger up the cylender mounting bolts shows poor form and laziness on the part of the former owner , , , , , Yes , they are not able to be taken out with a standard allen wrench , the bolt is too far under the cooling fins for an uncut wrench to fit into ......... BUT ! , , anyone working on this engine should at least possess the skills and know how to make a shorter wrench to fit the application !
The guy knew not to cut a wrench to fit and yet he was going to go into the crankcase ??? ..... For what ?? , , had he a clue of what the problem was , and then decided to dump his junk off on some unsuspecting buyer from feebay ???
The more I think about it , the seller is a crook and the OP darned right well should report the transaction to feebay even if the seller DOES refund the purchase price !!! In my opinion , since the engine is not as represented , , the seller ought to eat all shipping costs , as well !
Do an advanced e-bay search on Saito 300 completed auctions & this guy has sold another Saito 300T. The selling price was similar, $400. I wonder what kind of condition THAT engine was in.
I agree, if the seller won't refund the shipping too I would file a dispute.
To the OP: Make sure you get a signature of receipt so this clown doesn't try to say he never received the returmn.
07-10-2012, 01:26 PM
#37
Senior Member
RE: fa300t advise strange noise
ORIGINAL: init4fun
To bugger up the cylender mounting bolts shows poor form and laziness on the part of the former owner , , , , , Yes , they are not able to be taken out with a standard allen wrench , the bolt is too far under the cooling fins for an uncut wrench to fit into ......... BUT ! , , anyone working on this engine should at least possess the skills and know how to make a shorter wrench to fit the application !
To bugger up the cylender mounting bolts shows poor form and laziness on the part of the former owner , , , , , Yes , they are not able to be taken out with a standard allen wrench , the bolt is too far under the cooling fins for an uncut wrench to fit into ......... BUT ! , , anyone working on this engine should at least possess the skills and know how to make a shorter wrench to fit the application !
BTW: I have had a couple of instances where @ least 1 bolt resisted my cut off allen wrench. Once on a 150 & another time on my 300T. If the allen wrench won't get the job done, a pair of pliers sure won't.
Both times were on engines that had never been apart that had some run time on them. Maybe my allen wrenches were on the soft side.
