Axle Al

My Feedback: (25)

I don't know where you been looking, yes of course glow is shrinking, but have you seen the new line of Nova Rossi nitro engines. And evolution is certainly marketing towards the gas likers. you know, cheaper fuel. They don't build the muscle cars of the 70's anymore either. But nobody can dispute their greatness. Just like nitro model airplane engines, the muscle cars are still today,arguebly, the most powerful powerplants ever produced. You can try but you will not rewrite the history of the nitro engine in model airplanes. beginning with the cox .049 and up, the one thing that made a model airplane NOT a toy was the engine. Don't hate-------appreciate what nitro did for you

Axle Al

My Feedback: (25)

There you did it, flip flopped. After all that rant about the superior electric you now say you like the glow. Thats the first time I hear an electric guy say he likes the noise of glow. And now you like that there's no battery charging. Pandering? or just losing a discussion? I know in some competition events that electric's are doing well. But at the average airfeild electric's are still less powerful, less speed, less flight time, and smaller. This thing you say about electric performance is a bit premature. the tiny electric hotliners are impressive but there performance is attributed to their small size. Maybe you have not seen the "right" nitro airplanes tuned and flown by advanced modelers, YS,K&B,Rossi,Moki and tuned exhaust on a regular basis. They dominate the airfield, even against most jets. Nitro is the master of the sky, All our electric flyers are pretty much , how do I say it? under achievers? lazy? a little whinney? Oh well, to each his own.

Axle Al

My Feedback: (25)

I think you "hit the nail on the head" People who never rode a horse don't want to have to care for it or smell it. But people who do like horses don't mind it. When horse folks rub down their critter they can tell if it's ok. When I clean my nitro plane I find any damage or problems that need fixing. Unlike when we throw an electric plane in the car. Looks like a lot of it has to do with enthusiasm and commitment.

Sport_Pilot

Muscle cars are also still being built. The Dodge Challenger, Mustang, and Camaro will out run the stock muscle cars of their hey day.

1QwkSport2.5r

I think a 60s Challenger or Charger with a stock 426 Hemi with a modern 6spd manual transmission would give a current model Challenger or Charger with the 392 Hemi a run for its money. The 3spd and 4spd auto/manual (respectively) transmissions lacked in the gear ratio department to be competitive against today's cars. With a comparable transmission I think it would be a good race. Those old Hemis with dual quads were running 425 "net" horsepower. Really more like 500hp at the crank.

Thats my opinion though.

jester_s1

Axle Al- I don't appreciate your attitude, and I don't appreciate the disrespect. I have contributed a lot on this forum, and I am always one of the first to help out a newbie either online or at the field. I've even met guys on the forum and helped them with their flying that were local to me. I've been in the hobby long enough to know what I'm talking about, and I don't make statements I can't back up. This is a discussion, not an argument, I expect others to treat it as such.

My post that you copied was for clarification. Yes, I still have some glow powered planes. I have no plans to stop using glow. My first entry into the conversation was to point out why electric is making such inroads into the glow plane market. I'm not a glow hater who's drank some new tech coolaid and thinks that anything made before the 90's is no good. I simply evaluate the current options and understand the pros and cons of all.

As for electrics outperforming glow because they are smaller, I mentioned an SPA match I flew in a couple of months ago where there were several Dirty Birdy ARFs powered in various ways. One of them was electric, and it ran right there with the best glow planes. The best at that particular event had OS .65 AX engines with Jett mufflers. The electric gave up no weight penalty (at least not from the looks of it in the air) and had at least the same power. And it was faster and had better vertical than the marginal glow powered planes using stock mufflers and the one using a Saito 4 stroke. So with the same plane, same weight (minus the powerplant) and same electronics, the electric version was at the top for performance.
Look at the numbers for yourself; in anything smaller than a .90, if you buy quality components, you can match the power of a glow engine and save some weight. That's why glow is losing out to electric, because electric outperforms it. And that's not even taking into account that a plane, any size plane, designed for electric can be built lighter too. I still like glow anyway because I like the noise and not having to manage battery charging, and because it's considerably cheaper. But I also know that I am taking a slight performance hit, so if I wanted the best I wouldn't be flying glow. The old muscle cars were mentioned earlier. I very much appreciate a 429 Boss Mustang or a Charger with the 440 wedge engine. There is something very primal about that exhaust rumble and the unrefined nature of it all. Yet, the technology has moved on to provide cars that will both out handle and out accelerate those with much better safety, durability, and fuel economy. They've been surpassed. If a guy still likes them that's great. But like glow engines, there's no sense in kidding yourself that you have the best performing item available because the numbers just don't lie.

Sport_Pilot

Most of those were poor drag racers. The 440 was better with more low end torque. Also many had too high a rear end ratio. Great for going 150 or more on the interstate though. The stock SRT Challanger will do a quarter mile in less than 13 seconds. I don't recall any muscle car doing that. One of the main reasons is better traction, not horsepower.

1QwkSport2.5r

That's why I said if you put a modern 5 or 6 speed transmission behind the 426 Hemi, it'd be a good contender. Yes, traction is an issue but to be fair you would have to have traction control turned off in the late model. But this is so far off topic, I'm not interested in pursuing it further.

Axle Al

My Feedback: (25)

Jester, no joking. My attitude is pro Nitro and I do not disrespect electrics or the people who like them. I have foam electric warbirds and even a deuces wild. I appreciate their easy to do. They take me back to the time I flew rubber band. The joy of model flight. I think this is the attraction to electric for some old timers. I don't know what made you wish to diss the nitro motor but you will not succeed. A glow motor takes the most powerful fuel, nitromethane and alcohol and combines it with the most powerful engine design, the 2 cycle, and Kaa-Pow! the most and best power to weight ratio of all time. Obsolete? Surpassed? not even close. Dinosaurs they will become but who thinks dinosaurs were not powerfull? Since you don't know, here's what happened to glow. All modelers are not in to performance and more interested in ease of operation, expense of fuel, cleanliness, NOISE, etc. These are the reasons glow has declined and gas and electric have increased. Some flyers laugh about the gas weed eater motors and joke about them being commonplace, not a "real" model engine. But this is even more laughable that you can place an electric motor above the tried and true model airplane Nitro engine. A simple electric device that is 1000 times more common than a weedeater. I got a electric motor running right now! Am sitting in front of a fan.Ha Ha, thats enough of this. I hope it helped your perspective.

jester_s1

I don't need help in my perspective Axel Al. I own all 3 kinds of airplanes and enjoy them all. If you don't believe me about the power to weight ratio benefit of electric, look at the numbers yourself. That is the sole reason that F3A competitors have nearly all switched over to electric. These are guys who spend the big money to have the best equipment, and glow planes have a tough time being competitive these days there. You can go on and on all you want about how amazing nitromethane is and what engineering marvels our glow engines are, but the practical performance and hard numbers of thrust, straight line speed, vertical performance and acceleration show conclusively that they have been surpassed by the top of the line electric stuff. Me personally, I'm not up for replacing a $140 glow engine with a $400 electric setup (complete with batteries) to gain a %5 performance increase, but there are those who are. I'm actually quite the gear head and I truly love engines, but they are declining now specifically because electric has improved so much over the last 10 years.

Axle Al

My Feedback: (25)

Ok. nitro will watch electric take over, maybe. But if some one had the desire and money to restart the development of the glow moto for performance reasons it likely could raise the bar greatly. Nitro topped out during the ducted fan days with most all manufacturers making high rpm designs. That was like 20 years ago? Now there's no market for it. But now we could have, like turbines, computer control. Maybe variable exhaust timing and compression. auto mixture control. Super or turbo charged intakes. Who knows. Again we watch and see. The competitions between the two and these type of arguments could lead to the rebirth of glow moto development. Or not.

jester_s1

I agree with you there. Of course, variable timing isn't possible on a 2 stroke, but it would be neat to see what could be done. I've often wondered why fuel injection isn't done with glow engines. If you took an already good design like a Saito .91 and put fuel injection and CDI ignition with variable timing on it you'd have a pretty amazing power plant. If it was all optimized for FAI fuel we'd have an engine that's cheap to run too. For that matter, an engine that size is viable for gasoline conversion, so with some tweaks our current engines could satisfy that internal combustion craving that most of us still have but with cheaper fuel.

ira d

I have nothing against nitro engines I still have a couple but technology has moved on. While at one time nitro was the best available to the modeler that time has passed and I doubt there
will be many if any nitro engines available new in the U.S. market in five years. And no I have not seen the new line of Nova Rossi engines I did not know they still had a USA distributor.

Sport_Pilot

I thought it was the low speed thrust,, not power. For power 2 stroke nitro is the fastest. Not the modern pattern engine as that is a low nitro, torque and power compromised engine. You need to compare this to high nitro racing engines not sport engines. Also if you decrease the tank size to match the average duration of an electric you will have about the same or better power to weight with even a sport engine.

Sport_Pilot

I thought it was the low speed thrust,, not power. For power 2 stroke nitro is the fastest. Not the modern pattern engine as that is a low nitro, torque and power compromised engine. You need to compare this to high nitro racing engines not sport engines. Also if you decrease the tank size to match the average duration of an electric you will have about the same or better power to weight with even a sport engine.

Most of those raise the cost too much. I suspect the next step should be to make engines that use no nitro and 5% or less oil. Then maybe market some cheap fuel to go with it.

Sport_Pilot

Sure it is, use a low patinum alloy plug, and a variable current plug driver. To advance timing you add more current to the plug, to retard timing timing you reduce current to the plug.

jester_s1

Yes, Sport Pilot, variable timing on the ignition is possible. CDI is a better solution for that though, as the ignition timing can be precisely controlled. Our glow plug ignitions all are running significantly more advanced than they should be for max power. That is done to give us reliable idles and strong transitions. Axel Al had mentioned in a previous post about variable valve timing for glow engines, which is what I was responding to. You can't have VVT when you don't have any valves.

On the racing engine comment you made, I guess you're talking about the Jett engines and others like them? I have no experience with them so I can't make a comparison, so maybe they do still outrun their electric counterparts. At the same time though, there aren't a whole lot of those engines in use, and the ones that are are very special purpose. Their port timing is so high that they don't really make for a good sport or aerobatics engine. And of course there is the cost of running the nitro amounts that the racers use which is prohibitive for most of us. Jett does also make some higher powered engines for sport and aerobatic use that are excellent, and may very well beat out the electrics for power to weight ratio and overall performance. I'd love to see a head to head test for acceleration, vertical performance, top speed, etc. between the two.

[email protected]

My Feedback: (1)

i have one > evolution 25 one magnum 36 both engines have been run one tank of fuel on the work bench not many small planes

Cyberwolf

My Feedback: (4)

I built a 60 size Pitts Special and gave it to a friend of mine. The plane was designed for Glow but he is wanting to convert it to electric.
He took it to SLC to one of the Hobby Shops there and ask how much to do a complete conversion. At a mere 650.00 the plane can be converted over,(PARTS ONLY) Gee ain't that nice !!!!!!!!!!! When he has a perfectly good 61 and 90 sitting there in a box waiting to be used for nothing but the labor to install it.
As for me the price of fuel is not that big of a deal, I can still get fuel under 18.00 a gallon for 15%. I do fly all three types, but FLY is the key word here not sitting on my butt waiting for a battery to charge.
I will say this since I have gotten into the larger end gas engine planes my glow planes do sit in the trailer more but that is personal preference.
My most prized glow engine's are my YS's which I will never sell or part with until death and then i"m taking them with me *L* But I have a good collection of others as well and guess what if an engine is stored correctly there is no worry about plugged up carbs or rusted bearings or anything else that could hamper it from being used.
As far as an end to glow engine's maybe a decline but never a total end.

Sport_Pilot

Too large and heavy. I considered a .50 gas engine, until I found out the ignition module was as large as the large gas engines. The electronics for what I have would be very small, and would be almost as precise.

Sport_Pilot

Most of the Jett engines are not racing engines. In fact the name of one line clearly implies they are not, the Sport Jett line.

Most of the better racing engines are made overseas since Nelson quit making engines.

Telemaster Sales UK

I thought I'd just like to throw these two into the mix.

1. I am about to emigrate to France. the weather's better and the houses (and wine!) are cheaper! The club I will be joining, which has 21 members, staged a round of the French Aerobatic Championship about a year ago. The event attracted the entry of the European Champion, who was a former World Champion, and the current French National Champion among others. All of the models were powered by electric motors.

2. At the British National Championships last year there was a man selling two-stroke model aeroplane engines, which he kept in a big box. The price of these engines was £10 or about $17US, we were invited to help ourselves. Nuff said.

Rocketman_

Isn't it true that in some classes of aerobatic competition that the electric fliers are whining about the aerobatic schedule having many of the vertical maneuvers near the end of the flight? That's when their batteries begin to fade. Glow and gas engines are unaffected by that. Perhaps the electric fliers are looking to gain an edge over internal combustion engines by crying for the rules to be changed.

fizzwater2

My Feedback: (61)

I've seen some mighty impressive electric airplanes. Large scale planes, pattern planes, etc.

However, they just don't do it for me, in spite of the advancements in electric power since the advent of the LiPo, brushless motors, etc.

And I'm an electrical engineer - maybe after spending all day dabbling in electronic stuff, it just doesn't appeal to me to do more of it for a hobby.

"Nelson" .40 size race engines are still available. Aero Racing engines ( http://aeroracingengines.com/ ) makes them, and Mike is making some really nice engines these days. I don't think he's making the smaller .15's, etc, that Nelson made.

Axle Al

My Feedback: (25)

The good news is nelson is back, manufactured by some new place. it was mentioned in a recent ama mag with some race coverage. And our pylon guy at the field has a new one. This guy also has come foreign made moto, looks like there is some hope for nitro