Being in the Glow Engine Forum a lot, one would get the idea that Saito is number one?

So I was nosing around in the market places and taking counts of engines for sale to confirm my suspicion.

There were almost four times as many Saito four strokes as there were OS four strokes

There are still twice as many OS two strokes out there as Saito four strokes

Also from my visits to several model flying sites in the Eastern US, everything may be (In what I would call extremes), almost exclusive OS and others Saito.

I didn't look into the ASP/Magnum/SC situation nor did I look at Thunder Tiger.

There must be a bunch of OS fourstrokes stashed away in closets. There's nothing wrong with Saitos so it must be the demographic of its owners. Saito has been upgrading their product line much more aggressively than OS, owners may want the newer engines. Or Saito is simply attracting more new flyers who are still crashing a lot or leaving the hobby.

Jim, my Saito list is a lot more lopsided than your numbers. My daughter bought the 1.50 for me for Christmas in 1992 and I was hooked. Any time Saito comes out with a new model my LHS sends me the the first one. I declined on the .40a but when Horizon discontinued them it became a must have.

Saitos
(1)==2.20
(1)==1.50 Black/ Chrome rocker covers
(1)==1.30 twin
(1)==1.25 GK
(1)==1.00 GK
(1)==0.90 triple
(1)==0.90 TS twin
(1)==0.82 GK
(1)==0.80 GK
(1)==0.72
(1)==0.56
(1)==0.50 last version
(1)==0.45
(1)==0.40a GK
(1)==0.40
(1)==0.30 GK
(1)==0.30


OS
(1)===0.52 fourstroke.

Thats quite a list. I always wanted to mount one of those twins in the front of a Dago red. Might not be all that fast but sure would look good

Interesting post. It would seem that this has been a fairly common thing for as far back as I can remember in the hobby..not just with engines either.

Some clubs were "Strictly K&B"....some strictly Enya....etc, et al.

There's a thousand angles to view it from, but I really believe the popularity of one product over another in a particular group stems from people's tendency to purchase the same brands of items others are having success with. Herd mentality, but it winds up being self perpetuating with each successive generation of modelers in a group buying what the guy before him recommended, etc.

We did the same thing. If Dad was a "Chevy Man"....you likely were as well. Why do teenagers love Hondas? Because the OTHER teenagers love them. So on and so forth.

Local availabilty of a particular brand doesn't hurt either, and here...Great Planes (OS) and Horizon (Saito) have done a swell job in making their products highly accessible. Mail-order is fine, but from what I see....the vast majority of guys would rather buy something they can have right now-today! Go to the hobby shop and you're greeted with OS & Saito. It's no mystery what they'll walk out with. Two key elements have been met: 1) I saw this item work really well, and 2) It's for sale right in front of me.

At least from what I've seen in a good many years in a variety of locales...OS is far and away the dominant (most commonly seen) 2C engine. It's a bit of a toss-up with the 4Cs, but I'd probably give the nod to the Saito...just because they have a larger assortment of displacements to choose from.

Tomorrow? when some new guy stops by the field and sees the OS & Saitos merrily flying around...he'll be buying one too.

The cycle repeats.

Where I fly, OS is most common in two and four stroke. Saito or Magnum would be number 2 in four strokes.

After the flood of OS in two strokes, I see (in no particular order) TT, Tower, Webra, GMS, Evolution, Magnum

My two stroke engines are
TT 61 Pro, ASP 61, OS 25 FX
My four strokes
OS 70 Surpass, OS 91 Surpass II, Magnum 91, Magnum 70

---------------


Thunder Tiger was doing well until they left Horizon Hobby Distributors. You are lucky to hear from them any longer.

The 3D kick is what made Saito popular. Personally, I liked Saito much better before they went to the one piece head and high nitro philosophy. But I'm just an old fart. I do have most of their single cylinder engines, all acquired in the last two years, so I'm not completely dissatisfied with them.

The OS FX dibacle really hurt their popularity and with good reason. I have a feeling that this episode isn't over yet (declining quality/dishonest service). I hope OS survives. Before anyone thinks that I am anti OS, two of my last five engine purchases were an unpumped OS FS-91 and a pumped OS FS-91.

Lately I have acquired three new YS engines. For the particular application that I have in mind (3D), you're wasting your time with anything else. Just my opinion. Otherwise, I wouldn't put up with their fussiness for just ordinary sport flying.

After this is all settled out and the models are flying, I'm going for a radial model engine. Never had one before. Gotta have at least five cylinders. <G>

I have a Saito 91s, Magnun 91, Magnum 52, Magnum 30 and an OS 70s. I like them all but seem to be flying the Maggies more than the others. That could be because of the planes they are in.

Cheers,

Chip

Where I live this used to be Super Tiger Country. Everyone had them. Then when ST stopped production people drifted off into other brands and types.

OS wasn't very popular around here. I never saw a 46FX in this area until just before the AX came out. I happen to own 3 46FX's and I've never had any trouble with them but then again I have too many engines to put much time on any one engine.

So when is Jett engineering going to roll out four strokes?

I don't believe the "FX debacle" hurt OS's popularity one iota since 99% of the owners have never heard of such a problem. In the hundreds (!!) of OS's I've been exposed to over the years...I've yet to see it. If the motor gets replaced, it's because it's crashed into oblivion or the wrong size for the current airplane.

Not to get into that peeled liner crap again, but...in the final analysis, people like to buy the same thing that other folks are using successfully and that is almost invariably....OS.

Just to qualify this.....of all my motors...only 2 are OS. Just because they're older than many of the current fliers should say nothing about longevity/reliability of the product.

--------------


The younger crowd have responded to Saito's NITRO marketing ploys and they associate Saito with 3D performance. Of course, this is just my opinion.

I think you see so many for sale because the newbies trying to fly 3D do not understand the implications of producing good horsepower while burning lots of nitro with a very light engine (vibration and the attendant fuel foaming problems - especially with profile models).

I have many recently made Saito singles myself, so I'm not anti-Saito, nor am I bashing Horizon for employing such a successful marketing campaign.

We do think alike Ed...

More nitro has got to be "more betterer". <GGG>


Horizon cashed in on it. It's a "load' by and large, but whatever makes money as they say.

Heaven forbid OS make a buck. That's against the rules.

Some of us will remember Saito's first run; pretty abysmal. I have numerous O S engines, but I never knew about the liner peeling on a much larger scale until this website. I do have a 40VF with the top of the liner gone and it still runs. My point is this: OS has made engines with bearing problems and liner issues not to mention the hotrod 70 fourstroke with the blue rocker cover that they apparently pulled. Saito just keeps moving on with their product. It used to be understood at our field that Saito was the K and B of the four stroke world. A lot has changed.

I just want for my engine to have a higher compression ratio so I don't have to run lots of nitro.

Is the power gain from an increase in compression linear with the power gain from an increase in nitro?

Around here Saito is by far the most popular 4-stroke with YS a distant second. But YS is definitely climbing due to the outstanding performance of the new 110's and 140's. OS and other 4-strokes are few and far between. 4-stroke sales seem to be driven by performance and availability more than cost.

OS FX/AX 2-strokes are still the most common but Evolutions are really gaining fast. Most beginners are starting with H9 trainers with Evo engines, and then they feel comfortable with the engines and keep on buying them. Good marketing on H9's part to use a good, reliable engine on their trainers. Some engines like Supertigre are excellent but since they don't come on heavily marketed trainer packages they lose out on future sales.

Walt

I love my EVO. I had 4 OS engines over the years that were well cared for and peeled thier liners [:@] I will never buy another OS [:'(]

My Evolution runs GREAT. Good idle, lots of power, and not even a hint of peeling its Hard Chrome liner

I will buy more Evolutions for my small 2 stroke planes !

JettPilot

---------------


Do a Google search looking for peeled FX liners some years ago for rec.models.rc.air and even on the RCU forums. I'm not hallucinating one tiny bit. It was a very big issue.

What made it worse was the distributor's effort at denying there was a problem, then they insisted that it was the users' fault. The problem has been rampant for many years and through many OS models. This is not debatable, unless you are one of those revisionist folks, which I doubt very much.

I only had one OS two-stroke no ringed liner peel on me, as mentioned before and that was with an OS .32F ABN that I bought in 1992. Since then I haven't bought any ringless OS engines with one exception (which I forgot to mention in a previous post) and that was the new FL-70. I haven't ran that engine yet, so the jury is still out.

Denying that this happens doesn't help OS deal with their problems. I have no idea if the problem still persists. I do like OS engines very much, in general. Their handling characteristics are simply sweet, bordering on divine.

I was very sorry to see this thread start up. I had hoped that the peeling problem was behind them. It may be, who knows?

--------------


I'm fairly certain that the power gain with nitro and reduced compression is greater than with low or no nitro and increased compression. The problem is that nitro broadens the acceptable needle setting, while no nitro fuel makes needle adjustments more critical. Just what the instant gratification crowd does not need. Still, it would be nice if they offered a few of their engines with the old high compression ratios.

Hobbsy pointed out a while back that his modern Saitos run just fine on 5% nitro, just not as crisp. If I was worrying a bunch about crisp, like for 3D flying, I too would be using high nitro fuel. So he may have a point that this is not really a problem.

The reason I ask is that I may be moving to the UK, and will bring my small nitro planes with me. I don't want to spend $70 a gallon for 25% nitro glow fuel. I do want to keep the response and power "crisp" though. Is there any way to increase the compression ratio?

I'd love to convert all the way to gas, but it just isn't feasible for me right now.

--------------


There was a time when being the K&B of anything could have been a terrific thing. I remember the early Seventies when K&B was a highly respected and sought after engine. Then, for some reason which I still haven't figured out, their quality seemed to nose dive and they produced mediocre engines. At least in the sport flying category. The ducted fan engines seemed to be a well though-of product. I was not into marine glow engines, so I have no idea how they fared in that market.

I don't remember Saito's being abysmal. Please fill us in. What period was that and what were their problems? Most engine manufacturers have periods of less than perfect products. I wouldn't expect Saito to be any different, although according to one of my now deceased modeling friends (John Pazursky sp?), he loved their engines from the late Eighties and early Nineties.

The OS liner peeling debacle is fact, not fiction. It had been with OS for quite a while in many different lines of engines, but it wasn't until the internet became available that we had the means to identify others have similar experiences with the product. As I said before, any manufacturer can have a problem - it is how the US importer handles those problems that determines the value of the product.

Yes, I paraphrased a bit, but you get the idea...<G>

Yes, the OS line peeling problem was around long before RCUniverse came along.

There were many lengthily discussions on RCOnline that I remember.

There were 4 or 5 people that offered replacement S/P assemblies for them

Must have been early 2001 that Ann Marie Cross (The person before Bax) came on and finally said what OS had been doing and described the double plating process.

Just to clarify, I have been flying my Saitos (FA-72 and since recently a FA-82) on 5% nitro, and I am very happy with its performance. With Nitro prices being what they are here in Europe, nobody in his right mind flies with above 10%.

At our local club we have seen some YS, but they have been a nightmare. I assume once you have some people around that know how to run them you are ok, but until then.

Basicly Saito and OS are considered a safe bet. More engines are ruined by running them too lean, then anything else.

For me, I have been flying Saito for years now, just fuel, put on the clip and run... Best engine around!

Artisan, yes, the very first run of Saito's in I think the early eighties was not good. The design was a little different, and while the engines stayed together they were heavy and produced little power. Then they went through a design change and became a whole new product. The basics of the Saito are just as they were from that change. Yes on your K&B remark, they were very good engines. I had a very unfortunate experience at the IMS show in 1991 with the K&B rep. I asked if they would consider building a hot pattern engine. He said they did, everybody used it and then went back to import stuff. He just didn't see the need to pursue the market. My thought was that they were making hot marine engines, why not make something fore the precision crowd? Any, it was a little depressing and I oblidged him going out and purchasing a couple of OS 61 VFs. Did you see the Webra 61 r.e. with a pipe at the sell site? he's got the trap door carb as well.

I have no doubts that OS has had a liner peeling problem, but nobody at our field has knowingly lost a liner any time recently and the ease of use and good power make them very popular.

Most of my 4-strokes are YS's now and there are several others flying them at our field without any problems. Area knowledge could be a factor, also the fuel mix may be critical to success. Everyone here uses Coolpower 30% heli in their YS's which probably is not readily available in Europe.

Walt