proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Just out of curiosity...how much does that synthetic oil cost, per gallon?

jaka

Hi!
Nope! I don't sell them!

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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I will buy clean engines if they feel right - but castor crud does give me the "warm and fuzzy" feeling I like.


Ed Cregger

jaka

Hi!
Around Skr 100:- a liter ...that means $ 14.00-16.00 per liter. Same price as for Castor oil over here.

wjvail

My Feedback: (3)

If you buy direct from Klotz, synthetic is about 41$/gal plus shipping.

http://www.klotzlube.com/storeProdDetails.asp?pi=22

Bill Vail

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Thanks...
I was asking about the European synthetic not the Klotz...
Klotz is what makes Powermaster fuel pink isn't it?

If the European synthetic (for want of a better term?) were to be used, I wonder how much our fuel cost would go up?
Right now, I can get a case of 6 gal. of Powermaster 10% Nitro / 18% oil for 80 bucks.

Motorboy

Oil price in Norway...

Aerosave oil 0.5 litre for 175,- NOK ( $ 27.54 )

Castor oil 1.0 litre for 105,- NOK ( $ 16.52 )

Also are Castor oil cheap.

Jens Eirik

Turk1

Hey,do you call such prices on castor cheap?Then I am so lucky able to buy 1 liter castor about 5 $(Im not sure which class is it though).

asmund

Nothing is cheap here in Norway really, but castor is less expensive than synthetic anyway. I prefer to use fuel with a blend of the two

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Losing favor means nothing but that it is losing favor. I've not read of any synthetic oil that will survive the temps of glow engines. Whether to use it or not is up to each person. Some tend to believe what the loudest person is saying. Some believe advertising claims. Some believe the lore at the field.

Us guys outside of Europe are using a wide range of oils, nitro, and additives. Some use castor like some do in Europe.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Yep...that's about the way I see it too blw.

The reason I was asking about the prices of the European synthetics was because I was wondering about how much the price per gal. of fuel would go up...hypothetically speaking.

At a local motorcycle / snowmobile shop, I can get a pint of castor for about $6.00

If I figured it right, the Aerosave would cost over $200.00 a gallon...correct?!
That's the price in Norway...who knows how much it might be over here...might be cheaper, might cost more?
Has anyone tried to get ahold of some Aerosave over here in the U.S. Or is it commercially available at larger U.S. airports, or what?

speedster 1919

My Feedback: (3)

$41 a gallon for Klotz direct is list price to protect their dealers. It can be had for as little as $20 a gallon. I looked into Motul and aerosave and were double the price in USA compared to Klotz and Cool Power oils.

XJet

But if you can run them at 9%-10% instead of 18% then the cost per gallon of fuel is about the same -- but you'd get the advantage of more power and better fuel economy -- so that gallon would go further.

I have a feeling that synthetics such as Cool Power and Klotz haven't changed much in the past 10-15 years, maybe that's why the Euro stuff is allowing lower percentages and still providing better protection?

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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When I begin seeing the engine distributors here in the US begin recommending the use of the European miracle oils, then I'll give them a try - if they are available for sale here.

I would love being able to use fuel that left less residue on my models that cost the same (or less) than the current fuels that are being sold in the US. Especially if the engine's warranties were not voided by its use. So what is stopping this from happening?


Ed Cregger

wjvail

My Feedback: (3)

I don't know about that. I run Klotz oil in the 10 to 14% oil range. I think the Europeans have just been a little more open to change. We still have a large contingent of folks here in the US that will add 4oz of castor to fuel that already had 20% oil!.

Bill Vail

speedster 1919

My Feedback: (3)

Well at the reduced oil content it would go farther but at same price per gallon. Funny I read posts from contries all over the world wanting and liking American pre mixed fuel like Wildcat,Morgan,Powermaster and others. The UK seams to have plenty of their own fuel venders and they run higher oil contents like the USA.
It still takes the same amount of time to clean a lot of oil as a reduced amount.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

It would seem that the reduced mass flow of oil through the engine would cause the engine to run hotter?

I realize that less oil allows more methanol % wise...and that means more power...but wouldn't that also mean more heat?

If the above is true, then you'd have to richen the mixture to get more mass fuel flow through the engine to keep it from over-heating...then there goes your fuel "economy"...(or am I just [sm=confused.gif])

blw

My Feedback: (3)

The real purpose of adding castor to a fuel that is already high in oil content is to give the protection of castor, not to just bump up the oil percentage. Castor will not burn away at the higher temperatures like synthetics. This provides lubricating protection and carries away heat from the engine.

downunder

And that is exactly why I never go below 20% oil in my fuel because I don't use nitro. With no nitro the fuel consumption is much lower than a fuel with nitro which means that to keep enough oil flowing through the engine I need what seems to be a high % of oil. If I used a fuel with enough nitro to double the fuel consumption then I could drop the oil to 10% because that would give the same rate of oil flow (half the oil being used twice as fast).

But if I cut my oil down to 10% I wouldn't get any more power from the engine (assuming it didn't seize ) because, without touching the needle, it'd then be running a little richer because the needle would be letting a bit more methanol flow through. So I'd need to lean the mixture slightly to get the fuel/air ratio correct again. Then I'd be back to having the same methanol/air ratio I had before with the higher oil content and exactly the same power.

wjvail

My Feedback: (3)

What temp do you run your engines at! The flash point for synthetic oil is over 500 deg! It's within 10 deg of the flash point of castor! If you are burning the oil away you need to run castor. As I mentioned before, the squeezings of the castor bean with burn off into a thick black varnish protecting your engine.

Other notes...

---With castor percentages below about 4% the cleaning properties of good synthetic can keep up with the gumming tendencies of castor. This largely negates the purpose of adding castor.

--- This notion that oil carries away heat and therefore is a significant contributer to cooling has got to stop. It is a myth propagated by Gawd himself and is bull. It is undeniable that the oil enters the engine 70 deg (ish) and exits the engine at 200 deg (ish). Clearly it is removing heat; but, it is not a significant amount of heat. Raising the temperature of 1.8 oz of oil (18% of a 10 oz tank) over 15 min flying in a 40 engine has no effect on the operating temperature.

What adding more oil does do is further foul the combustion process requiring you to run your engine closer to a fully leaned condition to achieve good power, idle, and transition. Actually, in practice, adding more oil to fuel RAISES the operating temperature. I've mixed and run fuels with 30+% oil and they run extremely hot even while running in a very rich 4 cycle (over 300 deg).

--- The real reason for adding castor is that it doesn't evaporate in an engine as quickly and provides better rust protection. It's like adding after run oil to the fuel.

Bill Vail

wjvail

My Feedback: (3)

This is extremely well written and reflects a good understanding of how our engines are run and cooled. If I were to run no nitro fuels I would also run more oil.

Bill Vail

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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I didn't type what is attributed to me in your post. Not that it is any big thing anyway.

I have a lot of older engines, Bill. The instructions for my old OS .60 Goldhead recommend using 25% castor oil for a gallon of fuel. So, yes, I do add 4 ounces of castor oil to most gallons of fuel that could be used in older engines. I have yet to hear of one incident where too much oil harmed a glow engine.


Ed Cregger

XJet

One worrying thing I noticed when running Klotz oil is that I had to lean out my needle-valve quite significantly -- and despite running 20% by volume, there was markedly less residue on my plane. Where was that oil going and why the rich mixture?

All I can think of is that the oil itself was burning rather than remaining as a lubricant.

I also noticed that the residue that dripped from my muffler when my models were hung up (muffler exhaust down) dried to a hard crysty solid -- whereas all the other model oils I tried remained fluid and didn't dry out.

I'm now mixing my own fuel using Cooper Fuels Plus C oil at 12% and am *very* impressed with the results, both power, mess and protection-wise. Fuel with just 5% nitro performs like other fuels that have 10% and the cleanup is easy - not because the oil is burning but because there's just not so much of it. My engines are also cleaner, run smoother, idle nicer and appear to run cooler.

What's more, by using a good oil at lower percentages and getting more performance to boot, I'm saving quite a bit on my fuel costs now because I use half the oil and half the nitro -- these being the two most expensive components of nitro-fuel.

stratmoto

More oil myths.

The term "synthetic" when applied to 4 stroke and 2 stroke oils is a little, no actually a lot, misleading.

A "synthetic" oil, even those that claim to be 100% synthetic are, in fact not what they would have you beleive they are.

A "synthetic" oil is blended from mineral oil base that has "synthetic" additives. Nothing more, nothing less. All oil companies use the same process, contrary to what you may have been led to beleive as true. The base oil is supplied by the larger manufacturers, and sold to the various boutique and bathtub oil companies around the world.

I feel sorry for those that ignorantly sprout, "oh, I run "synthetic" oil" and beleive, mistakenly, that in every application, they are using a superior product.

In 2 stroke engines, using methanol as fuel, "synthetic" is not necessarily better.

Google it folks. For those that have been led to believe that they are using a 100% "synthetic" oil in something , prepare to be disappointed.

I mentioned in another thread that the only oil I will ever use in a methanol burning 2 stroke is Castrol or Shell M.

Why?

Because nothing has yet come along that has proven to be better. If my model engine seized, then, I would be both very surprised and disappointed. If my TR3 Yamaha racer, which is an air-cooled 2 stroke, seized, then I am up for avery expensive repair bill and a possible trip in the back of an ambulance.

Given that I have seen some newcomers to my other sport, road racing, bring pistons and barrels to me and ask why it seized. The first questions are what size main jet and how much oil?

I have heard all the snake oil stories. If you believe 'em good on ya

Its all based on the laws of physics. Not the urban myths that surround them and are, sadly, perpetuated by the ill informed.

You can argue about the law all you like, you just can't change it.

Peter

XJet

Maybe for rank amatures and ham-fisted tuners, running a straight castor lube package is a good idea.

However, for those of us who know how to tune an engine and can recognize the sound of a lean-run, running straight castor is unnecessary and simply results in engines putting out less power and not running at their full potential.

Sure, an engine run on straight castor might last 100% longer than one run on a synth or castor/synth blend -- but when I can rack up over 300 hours on my engines without any sign of wear and without them showing any significant sign of power-loss when compared to a new one, why shouldn't I enjoy the benefits of running something other than all-castor?

I always include a *small* percentage of castor (or use an oil package that contains a small percentage) in the fuel I make. That castor is not the primary lubricant, it's the lube of last resort -- just in case I mess up a needle setting or something causes the motor to run lean once it's left the ground.

I have *never* had an engine damaged by reducing my castor percentage to just 3% or less and making up the balance of the oil package with a good synthetic.

Not all synthetics are created equal, despite the claims that they all come from basically the same source. I would *never* dare run my engines with less than 18% oil if I were using Morgan or Klotz oils but if you're using something a little better (Aerosynth, Coopers or whatever) then it appears quite safe (and beneficial) to drop that oil back to a much lower figure.

If you're suggesting that running all castor then in my case it's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Straight/high castor blends are best suited for plain-bearing engines and those with a lapped iron piston. They probably won't hurt a modern engine -- but they won't provide any worthwhile additional protection if that engine is tuned correctly. Indeed, the higher viscosity of the castor will likely make the engine run *hotter* because there's more drag from the oil. This means lower RPMs per unit of fuel burnt and therefore less power and (since we're turning a prop) less cooling = higher temperature = more stress on the engine and potentially more wear.

A *little* castor is good, a lot is unnecessary and may even be counterproductive in some modern engines.