Stickbuilder

Okay, I got the engine remounted, and the dummy is in place (the engine........Not me!), and all is bolted and/or screwed down. I can now move on to something else.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Stickbuilder

Time is fleeting, and we only have orders for 48 shirts. We have to order 144 to be able to get a good price break on them. If you got some last year, you know how good quality they are, and how well they hold up to washing. Get in touch with the other Brothers, and get them off the dime. You newer Brothers, send me a pm if you want a couple of nice shirts (see the picture) This is this years colors.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

LarryN

Wobble Wing, nice to know that I'm not the only newbe trying to figure how to build this WACO.

Larry N\WACO Brotherhood #108

LarryN

Bill,

My wife saw the t-shirts and thinks I should have two. She says it will upscale my wardrobe 100% Put me down for two large.

Thank you

Larry N
WACO Brotherhood #108

Stickbuilder

Larry,

The way this works, is for you to send me a PM and that way, I can keep the orders catalogued without having to hunt everyone's orders down over several pages within this thread. If you would do that for me, I'd apprediate it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


airdales, you gotta lead em' by the hand...................

Mr. Lucky

AW's Rule!
S2's ey? I was a sensor station 3 (SS3) on a P3-C Orion. VP-48 based out of NAS Moffett Field, CA. 1975 through 1979. Radar Mad and ESM. I was given a letter of comendation in my jacket for finding a Golf class Soviet nuke skirting along the edge of a cloud bank 210 miles off the coast of Russia. Somewhere out from Vladivostok I believe. We were in emcon 5 and only monitoring quietly. He would bring up his radar about every 4 to 5 minutes for a single sweep to keep from running into something. I got 3 good sweeps on ESM while holding a southern flight line along the Russian Coast which pinned his exact location. They were all on the deck picking their noses when we ran up their tail right out of that cloudbank less than 100 feet off the deck. We had a belly full of photos before they could even get off the conning tower. We requested to drop bouy's on him so that we could track him and gain good info. We were immediately ordered off the sub. Within 5 minutes we had two Russian Migs on our tail and I got my first actual experience listening to fire control radar screaming in my headset until we left the area as ordered by COMNAVPAC. At debrief we were informed that there was a Fast Attack US Nuke the USS Guitaro in silent ops trailing this particular sub. Had we dropped bouy's the Russians would have gotten the ping off the Guitaro and known he was there.

http://www.americanwacoclub.com/2002_Photos.htm

This link is to a photo gallery on the American Waco Club. The ZPF-7 about 5 pics down is owned and flown by John Corradi a retired P-3 Captain.

Bill let me join so ex FAW's should be welcome. All the TACO's in VP-48 nicknamed us all FAW's which they termed as F'ing AW's since we were all such primadonna's.

I am ordering full size plans for a 1935 UMF-5 Waco from the Smithsonian NASM. I will be building sometime this fall when I have collected suffiecient wing drawings to allow me to begin my wings. This is not simply a model airplane site. Bill's thread has some of the most complete Waco details and information located in one spot.

Welcome to the Waco Brotherhood. It does not matter what size Waco you want to build. 3 feet or up to 30'3" just build a Waco. Although the full size Waco's take a little bit longer to build.

Regards

Ben (AW 2nd Class)
Mr. Lucky
WB # 74
Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

Stickbuilder

Hell, we used to track Golfs and Hotels with a broomstick held up against the pressure hull of our Fast Attacks. With an Alpha, you could track them standing in the Torpedo Room. They sounded like a truck full of scrap metal crossing the Railroad Tracks. What a noisy plant.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Mr. Lucky

That main coolant pump on the reactor screamed like a banshee. It would print out a line on the frequency chart and you could hear it a thousand miles away. The soviets were never very good at making a quiet submarine. It sounded like a mack truck going up a 6% grade. Or just like you said above.

Bill,

Send me a PM with your mailing address and regular e-mail address. I have a set of Waco Drawings that I would like to send you that you will be able to use in your model building. The detail on the Karstens 3 page 3 view with the inboard profile is so detailed you'll stare at it for a week. The pages are 30" x 36" I believe. E-mail me and I will give you the background on the set.

Also; back on about pages 179 and 180 everyone was discussing the 1935 UMF Waco NC14687. I own all the documents for this Waco if anyone in the group is still interested in knowing the actual story behind this very unique Coupe Top Waco. For the record Guys the Aviation CC was the Aviation Country Club on Long Island New York. Hicksville if I am correct. I will check my doc's. This was where all of the rich folk lived and played back in the 30's. That is primarily why Waco had their primary factory dealership there. Waco Sales of New York. Mineola, L.I. N.Y. Many Waco's were sold through this dealership.

If anyone has any questions I would be glad to answer them.

Ben
Mr.Lucky
WB # 74

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Well, the verdict is in on my UMF. Almost 2/3 of the airframe is completely shattered (from the lower wing T.E. forward, and would require complete disassembly and reframing to repair. All the joints came apart, it would be just as easy to build from the beginning. The top wing is intact, as are the tail feathers, but the bottom main spar is split and one L.E. splintered. Struts are intact (they are carbon fiber rod), landing gear is a big pretzel. I plan to disassemble and salvage all the small parts and electronics, and eventually will build another from the AMA/Pica plans.
Shucks.

On another note, speaking of coupe top Waco's, here was one from Oshkosh this year. It is a YPF, one of two built. Veeery nice.

Mr. Lucky

Hi Ken,
Sorry to hear about your Waco.

Those pictures are of the YPF-6 that was custom built for Miss Connie E. Johnson, Ambler PA

It was the second F-6 produced on 11/4/35. In late 1935 and 1936 the F Series Waco's were marketed and sold as the most beautiful sport type luxury biplane in the US. The landing gear was widened to help prohibit ground looping and the empenage was changed and given a more airfoil like shape. The Coupe Top was being offered and marketed to the flying sportsman and business traveler. The new trend was in the more favored Cabin Models and the "Coupe Top" was added to the open cockpit versions to hopefully satisfy some who might want the newer cabin models. The top wing still sported the smaller cut out above the front cockpit and still maintained the 2 degree dyhedral. Both of which were military changes to the UPF-7.

The F-6 models were the first Factory built Coupe Top models. Some have seen the UMF-5 NC14687 that left the factory 7/24/35 and was sold through the factory Dealership "Waco Sales of New York, Mineola, L.I. N.Y." However this UMF was sold to Miss Hope Noyes who was an 18 year old debutante listed on the New York Social Register. Miss Noyes was a member of the Aviation Country Club, Hicksville L.I. N.Y. When Miss Noyes purchased the UMF-5 on August 1, 1935 it was an open cockpit UMF-5. Miss Noyes sold the Waco 2 years later back to the Dealership where it was sold to a Charles J. Marsh, Cedarhurst New York. Mr. Marsh seeing the newer Coupe Top F-6 models paid the Dealership to install the Coupe Top from Factory Aproved drawings. Even though the Coupe Top was not installed at the Waco factory, Waco Sales of New York was an authorized factory dealership making the coupe top an official and authentic factory option.

The YPF-6 model is actually one of the models that may be built from the PICA plans. It was very short lived due to the war issues and Waco's attempts to gain the large military contract. Waco was actually in the first position to obtain this contract as they had been asked to produce 600 of the very first trainers as a pre-order. Later when the military elected to go with the more simplified construction of the Stearman the government sold the 600 UPF-7s to numerous flight schools for the CPTP Civilian Pilot Training Program. The VA. Polytechnic Institute, Blacksburg VA now more comonly called Virginia Tech owned about 6 Waco's that they used in their Officer Training program which was a part of the CPTP. I talked with a graduate student at Virginia Tech to try and obtain photos of all their Waco's but unfortunately they are either lost or buried pretty deep in their records. Virginia Tech actually purchased the UMF-5 from Charles Marsh a year after he purchased it from the Factory Dealership. All the other Waco's that Virginia Tech owned were UPF-7's.

Looking at Ken's pictures you can see the custom paint that Miss Johnson designed. The paint design is actually her initials CJ in gold. This restoration was done by the Rare Aircraft Company and you can read the story and view some more pictures on this link. http://www.rareaircraft.com/restorat..._featured.html
With the PICA plans making this exact model available this would actually make a great project. The paint is from the original custom order from Miss Johnson. When you go to the Rare Aircraft website take the time to look at the pictures they have of some of their Waco Restorations. Rare Aircraft is one of the premier Waco restorers in the country.

Great pictures of the Coupe Top Ken. If you see this aircraft again take about a hundred more pictures of the coupe top for me.

Thanks!

Ben
Mr. Lucky
WB #74

skylarkmk1

Ben, Ken,

I will second Ben's request for more photos of the coupe top Waco of Miss Johnson's. I'd love a copy of them.

LarryN

Mr. Lucky 2nd class AW
Fun times to look back on. Good story to be able to tell. I never was able to hitch a ride in a P3 but then again you guys spent too much time on station. I was VS 872 stationed at NAS Alameda, did some time at North Island and ALNAS. Both ECM & ASW in S2 D-E & F Trackers. I went from AT to AW and then to AX when they dropped the tecnician part of the rate just ASW that could still change a black box if needed.. Made PO1 because any one who took the AX test and had the time in grade passed the test. We used to go in and out of Moffett all the time but it was in the late sixtys. Nice to know that there is at least one other Naval Air A/C to help keep the those other guys on the bottom. [:-]

thanks for the story it brings back times that I don't think about much any more.

Larry N AX 1st class PO
WACO Brotherhood #108

Bill, Don't look up someone might be watching you. [sm=72_72.gif]

RICKSTUBBZ

Ben,

Thanks for the historical information. Very interesting reading.

I will be sending you a PM.

Thanks again,

Dominic-RCU

There is actually a WACO YMF 5 ARF from COX PICA 1/5 to sell on ebay....starting at 500 usd....if you are looking for you have 4 days left to bid.
I have already one for my os 160FT.

Mr. Lucky

All,
I have contacted a gentleman who supplies the Waco owners with drawings where applicable. I have asked him for a price on his set of Karstens. John will be getting back to me fairly soon. He has librarian privileges at the Smithsonian and is writing a book on Waco's. Although he has certain privileges at the Smithsonian he can not get drawings. Everyone must follow the same rules where the drawings are concerned.

I will keep you all posted regarding the availability of actual Waco drawings. These will help with some of your details quite extensively.

Anyone who would like to build exact copies of any authentic Waco should follow these guidelines. Go to the National Waco Club website. You can even join the club if you want for a nominal fee and a quarterly newsletter. It might cost $20 or so I am unsure. The NWC website has a bazillion pictures of the Waco's past and present. Here is a link to some of the older Waco's by model http://www.nationalwacoclub.com/
Here is a link to the membership photo album showing all the members Waco's. If you see a Waco you would like to build a project model for then e-mail Andy Heins and ask if he will supply you with the owners e-mail address. Contact the owner and ask him if you can use his Waco to build an exact scale replica from. I would imagine that 999% of the owners would be glad to give you permission and either send you detailed pictures or have Andy release the restriction on the photo and e-mail it to you.

Here is my opinion. Most of you guys are all like me and simply crazy about these beautifull biplanes. I think unless you are having money considerations then you should spend the small amount to join. Here is what the membership page says;

Membship Inlcudes:

Membership card which entitles you to join us for a commplimentary dinner on Thursday night at the National Waco Club Reunion!

The Waco Pilot - you'll receive six twelve-page issues of the "Waco Pilot" which features articles about all the Waco news from around the country, restoration projects, historical information about Wacos and Fly-in coverage of not just the National Waco Club Fly-in, but of Waco's attending various Antique Fly-ins throughout the United States!

NWC Forum - access to the NEW NWC Forum a great place to share restoration ideas, hints, or get help.

DO NOT REPLACE YOUR WB MEMBERSHIP FOR THE NWC MEMBERSHIP. But you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT NEED TO OWN A WACO TO BE A MEMBER. THEY WILL ALL WELCOME EVERYONE WARMLY.

They will also be glad to help with information that everyone should bring back to this group.

Here is a link to the American Waco Club also. No ownership required. Just a love for Waco's. The AWC will also be glad to have you.

If anyone has any questions do not hesitate to ask.

Ben
WB #74

Stickbuilder

I just got off the phone with Dick Watz, and he is hossing to get out to his shop to resume his Waco Builds. He really sounds a lot better.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Ben, I joined AWC last year, and went to their fly-in at Dauster Field, St. Louis (Creve Coeur Airport). Skylark is also a member and lives less than an hour from the airport. It seems you are a bit of an historian, the info you posted is fascinating. You sound like my mother talking about all her ancestors (she is a genealogist).

There were several Waco's at AirVenture this year, but I think there were more that had already departed by the time I arrived on Thursday. There were a lot of empty spots in the Vintage area.

I will definitely build another YMF, I think they are the most elegant of all the open 'pit Wacos. I also have a 1/5 scale UPF-7 kit, from Ikon N'West that I will eventually build.

What can you tell me about this YMF (NC14132). I spoke to the NWC pres, who had come to the AWC fly-in. He mentioned that the plane is presently disassembled in a building somewhere in Ohio, and has been for many years. I copied the paint scheme for my UMF but used different colors. The only pic I have is B&W, and could not tell the original colors. I was later told that it was dk blue and white, with gold pinstripes between the colors.

Stickbuilder

Ken,

Are you going to try and find a Piica kit, or are you still contemplating building from the plans and templates?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

x3heimmr

Bill,
Can I get into the Brotherhood? I just bought a 1/5 Pica kit last week. It is complete and unstarted. I'll start building in Fall of 2009. I am going to complete a Nosen P-47 this Winter so the Waco is next up. It will probably take me at least that long to read this thread from start to finish. There is a lot of good info here. I wish there was this much on the Nosen I'm building.
My screen name is x3heimmr. I go by x3. Name is Marty Heim.
Thanks,
x3

mrdhud

My Feedback: (48)

Stickbuilder

Bill,

Your cowl & dummy engine looks real good I couldn’t tell did you use the stock muffler and what size prop are you using? I’m getting real close to start covering I have all flying wires installed and struts built now I have to repair all the sheeting I had to remove installing wires & struts. I will post some pic before taking her apart.

To all

Let’s all get together and PM Bill with a tee shirt order I still have two from the first batch these are hi quality shirts that you’ll be proud to wear.

Mr. Lucky

Ken,
Waco YMF-5 NC 14132 s/n 3975 was the 3rd Waco YMF-5 built on 1/14/1935. The Colors and design were a special order by H.J. Topping Jr. of Round Hill, Connecticut and were custom and only listed as simply Blue and White. No specifics given. Your info was correct. They will be listed on the factory sales sheet but if I gave out the location of the person who has all the Waco Sales Sheets I would be excommunicated for life. Primarily due to the hundreds of people who would ask for copies. I know of no color pictures anywhere on this Waco anywhere.

I will say this however; if you join the National Waco club I would venture to say that Andy would send you a copy of the specific Waco that you were planning to build a scale model of. He also has copies of all the factory sales sheets. These are build sheets that show the factory colors and some of the details and specific parts, along with the list of all the owners who had purchased the Waco and the dates. I

About 14132; I show the last cert date as 7/10/1963 with the last registered Airworthiness date of 6/8/1961. Registered owner is in Ohio. This would tell me that the Waco has been in pieces for quite a long time. I also checked the posted members projects and did not find it listed on any of the Waco websites. This may be a perfectly good Waco lying around someones garage. I have no other info on it.

As far as my knowledge goes I have had the great fortune to be able to learn from two of the most experienced and knowledgeable Waco men in the US. John is the retired head of Navy Aircraft Development and is the unofficial Historian of the NWC and has been a Waco owner and builder for 39 years. John has taught me more about Waco's than I can even begin to explain. I joined the AWC about 6 months ago and posted a want add in the newsletter that I wanted to build a YMF-5 and was searching for information regarding the purchase of drawings. The Grand Pubah of YMF-5's contacted me and has been teaching me about the F-5's for a couple of months now. Barry and John have both recommended numerous books and such that I have purchased and read to learn as much as I can possibly get. They are incredible men who have helped to motivate me and help prepare me for the tremendous task of scratch building a Waco.

Ben
Mr. Lucky
WB #74

Mr. Lucky

All,
I posted earlier about a set of 3 views for the UPF-7 Waco. These drawings are the most incredible drawings I have ever seen. There are 3 sheets 30" x 36", one sheet for each view. The side view is an inboard profile which basically shows the Waco without any skin. These are professional drawings for an authentic full scale Waco UPF-7.

I asked John what he would charge for a set mailed to any Waco Brotherhood member because of the great love that all these model builders share for the Waco. Here is part of what John replied to me earlier today;

Ben:
Your letter comes as a welcome breath of fresh air in the midst of multiple turmoils in my life at this moment and it is a genuine sedative to my frustrations to read about these modelers who adore Wacos as the true works of art that they are. There is some guy already enrolled in the NWC Forum who is a Waco Brotherhood member and he contacted me over a year ago to discuss scale drawings and the Pica Waco F-5 kits (of which I have (2) never opened in my bedroom). (The infamous Stickbuilder I presume)

I hope to see you at the 50th Waco Reunion next year, if not sooner. And thanks again for this timely note.
-John

I will sell rolled sets of the 3-sheet drawings at $20 per set plus $5 shipping in a mailing tube. The only problem you will have with these drawings is how you are going to find enough space on your walls to hang them. That and how you are going to peel yourself away from the drawings and back to your work bench. I think I stared at them for days.

I fell in love with these drawings and paid to have them digitally remastered for myself. If you are a Waco lover you need to invest $25 for these drawings. If you are interested then PM me and I will give you the details of where to send for these drawings.

Ben
Mr. Lucky
WB #74

Stickbuilder

NEW BROTHER ALERT!!!!!!!!

We have a new Brother. Let's all welcome Marty Heim (X3heimmer), better known as X3 Welcome aboard Marty. You are Brother # 109.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Stickbuilder

Dan,

Yes, I went back to the stock muffler. I did need to modify the bottom front of the stock unit to be able to clear though. I bought a couple of different aftermarket mufflers, and may wind up using one of them. The prop is a Zinger 18X6 that will be finished as a scale unit. I have a spinner that was designed for the AT-6 to use on the model. The smaller one requires some trimming to clear this prop. I could have used an aluminum hub nut, but it does not look right, nor does the stock nut.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Bill, I'll probably go with the plans/templates and cut my own. maybe even upsize the drawings to 1/4 scale. I also will definitely get the 3-view of the UPF that Mr. Lucky mentioned. As elegant as the YMF is, I have a special place in my soul now for the UPF since that's the only one I've actually flown in. Maybe I can rework the Ikon kit into a frame-up more like the full scale.

All this is academic right now, though. I still have a tin-skin on the building board right now and finishing it is still a ways off. I have also curtailed most of my flying for a while as I am more and more tied up with non-modeling things lately.