AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
02-10-2008, 05:55 PM
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AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
Modified the AXE CP for the DX-7. GWS ICS-480Li for the main motor; GWS ICS-50Li for the tail motor; AR6100 receiver. The GYRO is a COLCO GY400 which was removed from a Mini-Titan. The GYRO was just OK for the M-Titan and I assumed it would work well for the AXE. The setup/configuration for the AXE on the DX-7 is similar to the M-Titan and appears to be OK except there is no tail motor control. All sub-trims are 0 and the rudder digital trim is 0. If I attempt to hover, the stick for the rudder must be almost full right to begin hovering and my skills are not good enough to maintain the hover as the heli will begin to rotate. My skills are good enouugh to hover the unmodified AXE or the M-Titan for the entire battery pack and slow figure 8s. I have tried all the possible configurations by changing (reverse or normal) for the DX-7 rudder and gear channels and the GYRO. Any recommendations would be appreciated.
02-10-2008, 07:15 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
Did you pull the center lead on the second ESC, the one for the tail motor? I am trying something similar and did not disable the power for the second ESC and it caused some strange issues.
Dru.
Dru.
02-10-2008, 07:21 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
Yes, the red center lead for the tail motor esc is cut. Both the mail and tail rotors operate. The mail rotor is has good control as the AXE will hover at about 2/3 throttle. However, the tail rotor will not operate unless the DX-7 rudder stiick is moved to the right.
02-10-2008, 07:59 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
When I had the Electric tail motor on my AXE, you had to ARM the Tail ESC every time before each flight, that meant after plugging in the AXE battery, giving the tail FULL RIGHT stick (I'd hear some beeps from tail ESC), then FULL LEFT stick (I'd hear more beeps from the tail ESC). So that the tail ESC would know where it was (full ON to full OFF), I'm not sure if the GWS ESC's have beeps or LED's to indicate where or not it is fully armed & ready to go.
On my Main motor I've got a Castle Creations 35-P, it NEEDS to see ZERO throttle for at least 3 seconds before it will arm, you may want to try that. Plug in your AXE to the battery, push the rudder all the way to the LEFT & hold it there for 5 seconds, then see what happens.
Shadow
On my Main motor I've got a Castle Creations 35-P, it NEEDS to see ZERO throttle for at least 3 seconds before it will arm, you may want to try that. Plug in your AXE to the battery, push the rudder all the way to the LEFT & hold it there for 5 seconds, then see what happens.
Shadow
02-10-2008, 09:04 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
Both the tail and main motor ESCs are armed unsing a similar process. The throttle must be at "0" stick for several seconds to arm the main motor. The rudder control stick must be held full left for several seconds to arm the tail motor. Both the main and tail motors operate after being armed. The problem is that there is no obvious gyro control while operating the heli. While the GYRO is either the Heading mode or non-heading mode, if the gain on the gyro is lowered to 51% for heading mode and/or raised to 49% for non-heading mode, the tail rotor will be rotating at several hundred rpm while the main rotor is not operating. As the throttle position is increased the main rotor speed increases and there is no change in the speed of the tail rotor unless the stick is moved to the right (speed increases to about 4500 rpm max) and if the stick is moved to the left the tail rotor slows before stopping. It appears that the maximum sensitivity of the gyro in the heading mode is for the gyro gain to be at 56% and the maximum sensitivity of the gyro in the non-heading mode is for the gain be to at 44%. While the gyro is in the heading mode and the gyro gain is increased, the tail rotor will stop rotating at about 56% gain. In my opinion, with the gyro in the heading mode the optimum operation will be at a gyro gain of 56%. I am of the opinion, that the gyro is not suitable for this application or I may have setup the AXE incorrectly and need help.
02-11-2008, 04:06 AM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
ORIGINAL: hikai
Both the tail and main motor ESCs are armed unsing a similar process. The throttle must be at "0" stick for several seconds to arm the main motor. The rudder control stick must be held full left for several seconds to arm the tail motor. Both the main and tail motors operate after being armed. The problem is that there is no obvious gyro control while operating the heli. While the GYRO is either the Heading mode or non-heading mode, if the gain on the gyro is lowered to 51% for heading mode and/or raised to 49% for non-heading mode, the tail rotor will be rotating at several hundred rpm while the main rotor is not operating. As the throttle position is increased the main rotor speed increases and there is no change in the speed of the tail rotor unless the stick is moved to the right (speed increases to about 4500 rpm max) and if the stick is moved to the left the tail rotor slows before stopping. It appears that the maximum sensitivity of the gyro in the heading mode is for the gyro gain to be at 56% and the maximum sensitivity of the gyro in the non-heading mode is for the gain be to at 44%. While the gyro is in the heading mode and the gyro gain is increased, the tail rotor will stop rotating at about 56% gain. In my opinion, with the gyro in the heading mode the optimum operation will be at a gyro gain of 56%. I am of the opinion, that the gyro is not suitable for this application or I may have setup the AXE incorrectly and need help.
Both the tail and main motor ESCs are armed unsing a similar process. The throttle must be at "0" stick for several seconds to arm the main motor. The rudder control stick must be held full left for several seconds to arm the tail motor. Both the main and tail motors operate after being armed. The problem is that there is no obvious gyro control while operating the heli. While the GYRO is either the Heading mode or non-heading mode, if the gain on the gyro is lowered to 51% for heading mode and/or raised to 49% for non-heading mode, the tail rotor will be rotating at several hundred rpm while the main rotor is not operating. As the throttle position is increased the main rotor speed increases and there is no change in the speed of the tail rotor unless the stick is moved to the right (speed increases to about 4500 rpm max) and if the stick is moved to the left the tail rotor slows before stopping. It appears that the maximum sensitivity of the gyro in the heading mode is for the gyro gain to be at 56% and the maximum sensitivity of the gyro in the non-heading mode is for the gain be to at 44%. While the gyro is in the heading mode and the gyro gain is increased, the tail rotor will stop rotating at about 56% gain. In my opinion, with the gyro in the heading mode the optimum operation will be at a gyro gain of 56%. I am of the opinion, that the gyro is not suitable for this application or I may have setup the AXE incorrectly and need help.
BTW, Where are you located?
02-11-2008, 09:59 AM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
Yes, the tail rotor slows and eventually stops as the rudder control is moved left. When the tail motor is armed, I will hold the stick for several seconds full left and then full right. Prior to arming, the tail motor will not operate. After arming the tail motor (rotor) will operate and the tail rotor speed is consistent with the position of the stick. When the collective stick (throttle) is moved up (speed increased slowly to full throttle) the tail rotor speed does not change. The tail rotor speed only changes if the rudder control stick position is changed. The AXE was clamped to my workbench when this check was done. Thanks for your input.
02-11-2008, 02:00 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
to check for tail authority on the axe i would just arm the motors, then with the main rotor OFF, simply grab the heli and turn it left, the tail motor should spin up and fight you to try to maintain heading
if you hold the heli in one hand by the frame below the main gear, with just your thumb and 2 fingers, you should barely be able to overcome the tail rotor - if you can somewhat easily push through the tail rotors power, then you dont have enough motor or propeller to get the job done
since it is not belt driven and you have a gyro there will be no correlation at all between main head speed and tail motor, it is a completely different system at this point
if you hold the heli in one hand by the frame below the main gear, with just your thumb and 2 fingers, you should barely be able to overcome the tail rotor - if you can somewhat easily push through the tail rotors power, then you dont have enough motor or propeller to get the job done
since it is not belt driven and you have a gyro there will be no correlation at all between main head speed and tail motor, it is a completely different system at this point
02-11-2008, 05:01 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
I am aware that if the heli is stationary (clamped) the tail motor speed should have little or no change as the main rotor speed is increased. I incorrectly added a statment to a previous reply stating the tail motor speed does not change as the main motor speed is increased with the heli clamped with the implication that I expected the tail rotor speed to change. However, while the heli is free and hovering the tail motor speed should change due to the rotational force of the main motor. There is no change in tail motor speed while the heli is hovering (at least for the few seconds that I can hold the hover). If I hold the heli (main rotor not rotating) and rotate (turn) the heli to the left, the tail rotor does speed up. However, the force is barely notiicable. If the rudder stick is moved full right and the tail motor is armed, the tail rotor speed will increase to about 4500 rpm and the force from the tail rotor is very noticable. The issue or concern is why does the GYRO main a hover on the M-Titan and cannot maintain a hover on the AXE. What am I doing incorrectly?
02-11-2008, 05:04 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
My previous reply is not correct. If I move the rudder (stick) to the left the tail rotor speed will decrease and eventually stop and if I move the rudder (stick) to the right the tail rotor speed will increase (max speed is about 4500 rpm).
02-11-2008, 06:56 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
ORIGINAL: hikai
My previous reply is not correct. If I move the rudder (stick) to the left the tail rotor speed will decrease and eventually stop and if I move the rudder (stick) to the right the tail rotor speed will increase (max speed is about 4500 rpm).
My previous reply is not correct. If I move the rudder (stick) to the left the tail rotor speed will decrease and eventually stop and if I move the rudder (stick) to the right the tail rotor speed will increase (max speed is about 4500 rpm).
02-11-2008, 08:03 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
Could be a WEAK tail motor, I went thru one every 15-20hrs of use (another reason I switched to a belt-drive system). GWS has a direct replacement for the AXE CP, or a BCP motor (which is smaller) is also a direct replacement.
Shadow
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02-11-2008, 11:18 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
The tail motor installed is a GWS CN12-PXC ($8.50). The tail motor has about 1-2 hrs use. Just prior to installing the seperates (seperate ICS for both tail and main motor), AR6100 receiver and GYRO, the AXE would hover and fly great... a few days ago. The tail motor max rpm is about 4500 rpm which, in my opinion, is OK (about 2x main rotor speed). The GYRO currently installed on the M-titan is a Futaba GY401. Since I suspect, that the Colco Gyro GY400 is not suitable for the AXE, I just may temporarily install the Futaba GY401 in the AXE. If I need to buy a new GYRO for the AXE, I will more than likely restore the AXE to the orginal configuration and tolerate having to routinely control the tail. For information, what does a belt drive system cost for the AXE?
02-11-2008, 11:30 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
I had previously changed the GYRO gain from 50 to 100, increasing the gain by 10 and then checking the performance of the AXE. In all the checks the heli has no rudder control.
02-12-2008, 04:26 AM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
ORIGINAL: hikai
I had previously changed the GYRO gain from 50 to 100, increasing the gain by 10 and then checking the performance of the AXE. In all the checks the heli has no rudder control.
I had previously changed the GYRO gain from 50 to 100, increasing the gain by 10 and then checking the performance of the AXE. In all the checks the heli has no rudder control.
From what i've read about this gyro you definately need to be seting up the gyro via the remote gain wire. I can't tell what the pot(s) are on the gyro itself but this might be your problem. Make sure revo mixing is off also.
02-12-2008, 10:17 AM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
The Colco GY400 GYRO is setup for the gain to be changed via the DX-7. The DX-7 is setup for the gear channel to control the remote gain. As the gain is changed it is obvious that is works as the speed of the tail rotor will change (no sticks being moved). However, the speed does not change very much as the gain is changed (my estimate less than 500 rpm).
The Colco GYRO was initially installed on the M-Titan and it controlled the tail servo well during a hover or slow forward flight (figure 8s). The GYRO on the M-Tital has since been changed to the Futaba GY401 because the Futaba GYRO's reliabality, however, the Colco GYRO seemed to be Ok. The gain pot on the Colco GYRO has no affect on the performance of the GYRO with the remote gain activated. The REVO mix is off and the digital trim for the rudder channel is in the neutral of "0" position.
The Colco GYRO was initially installed on the M-Titan and it controlled the tail servo well during a hover or slow forward flight (figure 8s). The GYRO on the M-Tital has since been changed to the Futaba GY401 because the Futaba GYRO's reliabality, however, the Colco GYRO seemed to be Ok. The gain pot on the Colco GYRO has no affect on the performance of the GYRO with the remote gain activated. The REVO mix is off and the digital trim for the rudder channel is in the neutral of "0" position.
02-14-2008, 04:26 AM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
ORIGINAL: hikai
The Colco GY400 GYRO is setup for the gain to be changed via the DX-7. The DX-7 is setup for the gear channel to control the remote gain. As the gain is changed it is obvious that is works as the speed of the tail rotor will change (no sticks being moved). However, the speed does not change very much as the gain is changed (my estimate less than 500 rpm).
The Colco GYRO was initially installed on the M-Titan and it controlled the tail servo well during a hover or slow forward flight (figure 8s). The GYRO on the M-Tital has since been changed to the Futaba GY401 because the Futaba GYRO's reliabality, however, the Colco GYRO seemed to be Ok. The gain pot on the Colco GYRO has no affect on the performance of the GYRO with the remote gain activated. The REVO mix is off and the digital trim for the rudder channel is in the neutral of "0" position.
The Colco GY400 GYRO is setup for the gain to be changed via the DX-7. The DX-7 is setup for the gear channel to control the remote gain. As the gain is changed it is obvious that is works as the speed of the tail rotor will change (no sticks being moved). However, the speed does not change very much as the gain is changed (my estimate less than 500 rpm).
The Colco GYRO was initially installed on the M-Titan and it controlled the tail servo well during a hover or slow forward flight (figure 8s). The GYRO on the M-Tital has since been changed to the Futaba GY401 because the Futaba GYRO's reliabality, however, the Colco GYRO seemed to be Ok. The gain pot on the Colco GYRO has no affect on the performance of the GYRO with the remote gain activated. The REVO mix is off and the digital trim for the rudder channel is in the neutral of "0" position.
02-14-2008, 09:46 AM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
I had previously disconneted the gain lead from the GYRO to the receiver and changed the gain pot on the GYRO in increments of 10 from a minimum pot setting (slightly less than 60) to the max pot setting (about 140). In each increment setting, I attempted to hover the AXE ... the results no change in tail control. I also checked the tail rotor rpm with the rudder stick in the neutral position after each pot setting change... the rpm was about 3550 rpm at the min setting and about 3450 rpm at the max setting. In each case if the rudder stick is moved to the right the tail rotor rpm will increase. Thanks for the idea.
02-21-2008, 01:12 PM
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RE: AXE CP Seperates No Rudder Control
Update: Connected the main mortor ESC to the tail motor. This required disconnecting the main motor esc from the main motor and making a jumper with a micro deans and 3.5mm male plugs. The jumper was connected between the main motor esc and the tail motor micro deans connector. It appears to work well: The max tail motor rpm is now 5340 compared to about 3500 rpm with the previous esc. When the heli is moved (rotated) the tail rotor will significantly speed up and the speed up can be changed by changing the GYRO gain on the DX-7. The next step will be to buy a new tail motor esc. After I receive the new ESC, I'll post another update and hopefully the results will be as expected.
