Cabdriver,

You will have sandbaggers in any class but unlimited, thats just life. As contestents it is our job to harasse them until they move up :-)

at the last JR scat, i scribed for advanced and unlimited. im in basic. yes, we have 2 40% in basic, but i think i can beat them eventually with my 850$ H9 planes...hehe

anyway, i was very encouraged to see 2 H9 birds competing in not only advanced and unlimited, but another in intermediate as well. the scores were good, the pilots just needed to brush up on a few manouvers. i dont remember how they finished, but it is certainly encouraging for me as i dont have money yet to move up to even a 35%, let alone a 40%. but, as long as my planes have the power, i believe i can move up as my skills allow.. maybe...

What's the definition of a sandbagger?

Anyone that finishes ahead of you in your class......

YES :-)

Hey Quest Being a contest director and a Unlimited Class IMAC flyer I found it easier to talk newby into flying there first match when there equipment was similar and not flying against muti-year competitors .

Hey Lucus Yes I have seen guys drive 400 miles round trip and sand bag in basic just to win a trophy. Being the CD I suggested they move up but was not going to force the issue they didn't.By the way I have plenty of planes

Quest I see you are from Glendale I used to have a winter house there Do you ever fly at the field on the other side of the 500 club golf course. Mark,

I live across the road from AMPS. but I fly at Sun Valley Fliers.

Hey guys....I was the scorekeeper at the second event referenced in this this post, and the fact that a complaint has made it to this forum with the context "ripped off" in it really does not set well with me.

I was approached by the individual who aired the complaint on Sunday of the event ; He is a member of the host club. I advised him to address it with the CD as well as the president of the club. I also advised him to bring it up at the next meeting and get it on the agenda to address by the board of directors (one of which I am !!), but I was told "I can't make it to any of the meetings".

The call was put out last year for more of our members to become CD's in order for contest interests to be more diverse and tailored to the CD's specific interest. A few have, but none who are active in IMAC competition. If you don't like how the contest was run, get involved with it and CHANGE it. Better yet, if you even have the slightest concern, clarify it with the CONTEST DIRECTOR or organizer PRIOR to flying in the contest. Don't just bi$%tch about it to the world afterwards and make the folks who ran the contest look incompetent.

This is the second year in the row I have BUSTED MY ***** for two FR#$%^KEN days for you people when:
1) I could be participating
2) I could have been doing something a whole lot funner than pounding a keyboard for 12 hours on Saturday and 6 hours on Sunday. I won't even mention the hours of prep it took.

Gee, lemme think...I didn't get to fly ANY sequences....this year OR last year....

[>:] Next year I'll be out riding dirt bikes when this contest comes around......one of you guys can keep score.


Bruce

Hey Bruce
I don't believe I referenced the host club at all in my original post. I was trying to get feedback on the basic class in general. This happend at both events we were at. When I did bring my concerns to the officials you suggested I got brushed off and was told this is the way it is. That is when I decided to see if it was like this across IMAC. From the responses I guess it isn't. And by the way, before you were in this club I attended every meeting until my work schedule changed which is in direct conflict with the clubs meetings. Change the meeting dates and I'll be there again. A guy has to eat!

You worded it VERY poorly then in a VERY public forum. Stating that the basic class was "ripped off" in my opinion reflected on the way the contest was run, and quite frankly, I don't need the slap in the face.

The reason that I suggested you bring it up at a meeting is that we can, as a club, look at what we can change next year to make sure it doesn't happen again. It would carry more weight if there where IMAC participants at the meeting. Unfortunatly, out of our 200+ membership you guys are a minority......

If you want me to support you as a board member, I will do the best I can. Although I couldn't change it the DAY of the event, I never felt like it would be a hard thing to change for the future.

Personally, as far as going above and beyond for IMAC events, stick a fork in me, I'm done. This stuff is supposed to be for fun.

Bruce

Bruce,
From the tone of your posts you are done. If it is that much of a hardship and your taking things this personally you should take a break. As someone who is getting ready for several IMAC contests this summer and planning to fly Basic I am alarmed at the thought of only flying once on a day of a contest. I would feel ripped off if that occured and posting it in public would be a reasonable response.

You are correct in telling people to get involved to change things they don't like and voicing your concerns is one way of getting involved. Saying that you should speak up in advance is not fair when I seriously doubt the participents knew they wouldn't get more than one flight on Sunday.

Take a break from officiating and fly or do something else but to let this thread bother you as much as it seems to be is a sign that you need to make a change.

This discussion has changed a bit from its original intent, however, if you'll indulge me I'd like to make a few comments because I think some of the points that are being brought up are important.

I have been flying IMAC for several years now. When I started, in this part of the country (NE Region) if you had 15-20 flyers at a contest it was considered a great success. We now see some more contests and regular participation in the 30's- sometimes close to 50. This is great.

In order for any type of event to continue to be successful and grow, the "customer" has to be happy (in this case, that's the contestant). On the other hand, this is not a business and so the organizers and volunteers have to, at the very least, feel appreciated for their time and effort. Add to this the fact that these folks who give their own personal time and expense are the minority. The majority are those who come and benefit from their generosity- From my point of view, these volunteers are giving the contestants a gift - a weekend of organized competition- and expect little or nothing in return.

I certainly understand that contestants make investments of their own time and money to come to the contest but I sometimes wonder if contestants have an understanding of the sacrifies that organizers make on their behalf:
- giving up time they could be flying
- working with the club to negotiate use of the field
- rounding up volunteers, judges and scribes
- dealing with the pressures of the contest- keeping things moving, making everyone happy
- numerous planning sessions
- soliciting sponsors
- securing and managing all of the equipment- computers, software, sound system
- securing food and drinks
- entering scores
- phone calls with contestants to answer questions
- time spent promoting the contest

These are just the things I could think of off of the top of my head. I am sure I could double or triple this list if I wanted to.

My point? We all want to fly as many rounds as possible. Perhaps a contestant's expectations aren't met and that is reasonable. Having said that, please try to appreciate the time, sacrifice and effort that the volunteers put in over a series of months that makes it possible for us all to come and fly, be judged, spend time with friends and, for the vast majority of the time, have a good time.

Take time out to thank these folks and appreciate their efforts. Take this into consideration when evaluating your level of satisfaction with your experiences at a contest.

And yes, I am a CD and have been on both sides of this fence.

Dave Michael

Dave,
Thank You. I'm switching to De-caf.

Bruce

Dave hit the nail right on the head. We may soon come to requiring pre-registration in order to limit the number of contestants in some classes. I don't care to hear the BS about "we run a contest with 50 people in two days and fly 5 rounds". To me, if it is possible, it doesn't sound like a fun contest. One contest I was at last year put me #4 in the order for round 1. Round 2 put me #14. Imagine the wait I had between rounds, given there were 19 people in the class (sportsman). I took it in stride and watch a couple DVDs in the van in the AC [8D] .

I did not get to fly my 2nd round due to some rain (which didn't start until 4:30 pm). Imagine my disappointment. I chose to withdraw from the contest and not return the next day, and chose to spend it with my family. Was I ripped off? Depends on who you blame. I still paid the $25. Big whup. There simply was too many people in the contest, and when weather was thrown into the mix, some people at the end of the order got screwed. Another contest down here this year suffered incredible winds and low temps, added to extremely high turnout. They had to nix the freestyle altogether just to get all the classes a SECOND round on sunday. Was it the fault of the CD? Flightline coordinator? Not really. Did I come onto a public forum to announce my displeasure...no. Then again I've been doing this for five years now, have helped run four contests, and know how things can go south.

High turnout is something we all like to see; it stuffs our club coffers and puts a positive light on the sport. However, as they say, you CAN have too much of a good thing. Back when I was in Colorado, total turnout of 25-30 was perfect. We didn't make as much money as a contest with 50, but we had more fun, could fly 4 or 5 rounds, and still have freestyle. That and be done by 3 on Sunday.

Blaming the CD for how a line moves is like blaming Ford for the traffic jam on the interstate. Yes, they could build less Fords and have less traffic on the highway, but the DRIVERS are also responsible for keeping things moving. You all out there play a big part in having more rounds in a tight contest. Be at the line even if your #3 up. Have your score sheets if needed. Have your Caller at your side. Work out RADIO conflicts ahead of time. Start your engine on cue. An idling engine doesn't burn much fuel. Maybe even get airborne early (with line boss approval) and fly deep pattern out of the way until your turn. Blaming a CD or line coordinator for a slow contest only pisses them off for next year. Take a look at what your flying peers are doing to make things slow, too.

I had the pleasure of running the line at our last contest here. Most pilots did just as I expressed above. As a result, everyone was able to get 6 sequences in, plus unknowns for the upper classes, plus a freestyle with 9 pilots...with a turnout of 38 pilots. Awards meeting ajourned at 4:00 Sunday.

Geesh, long enough eh? I think I'm done with this issue, for now.

Erich Freymann
Bay City Flyers "Flightline Nazi"

Well Erich, you are going to here about it again. It is possible and it ain't no BS! I 've attended 2 contests so far this year, 50 pilots at the first one, 45 at the second. Both ran like clockwork, both were great fun for all that attended.
Maybe instead of hiding in your van watching DVD's you helped with contest, judging, scribing, helping out with the scoring, are but a few things I can think of that would help speed up the day. Getting airborne before the pilot in front of you has finished is a must.
With 5 classes these days you need to have 35-45 pilots to make it competitive. The CD ( I am one) sets the tone for the contest. If the CD sits back and just "lets it happen", which I have seen done, then it takes forever to get through the rounds, no fun for anyone, judges included. If I go to a contest I expect to fly twice both days unless the weather decides otherwise. 2 back to back rounds of "known" on the first day, "unknown" and one more round of back to back "known" on the second day. There is no reason in the world that this cannot be done with 45-50 pilots if the organization and the pilots themselves work to make it happen.

People who are in this only for the trophy will never 'get it'. Personally I don't care if you fly a .40-sized or 40% airplane. If you can't handle the basic building blocks of the maneuvers then you shouldn't move up. It's a simple enough process to force advancement for the guy who's sitting in a lower class just to rack up the wood collection. To be honest I've never run into that person in the 10 years I've been flying IMAC.

Until you can CONSISTENTLY get 8's on every maneuver, you're not ready for the next class. This is most important in Basic and Sportsman, but I see it all the way up to Unlimited. I see guys in Unlimited who really struggle because they didn't spend enough time learning the building blocks for the class (in advanced).

I know it's hard, but don't let your ego force you into a class you're not ready for yet. Patience grasshopper

Airbus Dude,
In Eric's defense as being part of the team that ran the event, I must admit that I am sure that the kind of stats you are quoting for a contest are possible. BUT, I can almost guarantee to you that from the CD down, you had an EXCESS of HIGHLY EXPERIENCED judges, scribes, runners, scorekeepers, line bosses, organizers, volunteers and pilots. This is only the second year that this team at BCF has sponsored an IMAC event, and the first time we used a club CD. Just like anything else, there is a learning curve involved.... (I'll bet your second ever instrument approach was pretty sloppy !!), and yes, there where mistakes made, most of which have been discussed by the organizers as something to change in the future.

The fact of the matter is, contestants NOT understanding that & complaining un-constructively (sp?) about the way things where run in a public forum IMO just undermines the task of correcting the issues for the next contest & kills the motivation for people to volunteer, which is hard enough to do as it is.

Bruce

We certainly did not have an excess of judges, I judged 3 times over the course of the weekend. Pilots need to learn to judge as well as fly. We had no runners at either contest and no line bosses at the last contest. What we did have is a contest director who made it very clear from the start that we as pilots need to keep things moving. Use the time not spent flying either helping out with the contest or increasing your knowledge and skill by talking with other contestants and judges. Wonder why you got that zero or that low score on a figure you thought you did well, find the judge and discuss, NOT argue, about why you got what you did. It should be a time for learning as well as competing. A contest success doesn't just rest with the CD. It starts there and with a good lead and with active participation from the pilots flying it should be a good contest. Be proactive, not reactive!
On a final note and one that started this thread, the SCAT Grand Champion last year was the winner of the basic class, flying his first year of scale aerobatics. He walked away at the end of the season with a JR 10X radio and if that wasn't enough he won a DA100 in the prize draw for all pilots that had flown 4 or more series contests for the season! That alone should be a good reason for flying basic.

Alrighty then. We agree to disagree. It must be the humidity here in Florida.

It's not my problem anymore. Some other schmuck can volunteer to do it and then be criticized.

The next time you notice that there are no contests because nobody wants to run it, remember this thread.

Interesting. I think you make a good point, but not the one you think you are making.

I would argue that by making Basic pilots feel like they are less than the other classes will in fact lead to a day when there are no contests. Where will the upper class pilots come from to fly and run these contests?? Pop up fully developed and ready to go without ever having learned the lessons that Basic (and Sportsman) have to teach?? I doubt it.

But you are right, running contests is not for the thin skinned. And burnout is a very real danger, especially when it is left to a few to do it for the many.

WOW I guess we have it lucky we have such a short season we don't have to deal with burn out we have blessed with a lot of help from the clubs (Kenai,Anchorage. Fairbanks,) non -competition guys to help judge and scribe run the flightline, safety inspect and Bar-B-Q.We have tried to turn our competitions into events. All our prizes are awarded in a drawing 1st place in each class gets to draw first and so on down the line and all helpers and judges are included also in the drawings and we made it mandatory for a B-B-Q at each event. And I would have to admit we have had more and more fun each year. This will be our clubs 3rd year hosting the Alaska Aerobatic Challenge. This year it will also be the Alaska state IMAC championship check it out on our website www. peninsulamodelers.com we have allot great prizes this year including flyout fishing trips. Mark,

Hi All,

It sounds like Alaska would be a good place for Basic pilots to get some extra rounds in the summertime.

Doesn't it stay light there until 11:00 at night in the summer ??? You guys could have 2 contests in one weekend
I would have to agree with other posts in this thread as I didn't stay in Basic long enough to realize the importance of just flying straight.I paid for it later in Sportsman...
I'm glad to see great emphasis placed on Basic . I feel every attempt should be made to help get these pilots going right..
As far as time for the basic guys goes , they should get a few more sequences if time allows .My only experience as a CD recently found that the basic guys were more on the ball and ready to fly...Eagerness should be rewarded if time allows..
As far as contests and running one right and efficient, I think everyone should attend a few JR SCAT series events and the Tucson Aerobatic Shootout.. Both are Models of efficiencyand FUN!!! (Thanks Bill,Barry and Mike M. ) Pilots in the air and ready to enter the box and scoresheetrunners both save a lot of time..

Thanks , Dave Stoik

Cubdriver, aresti2004 is the series director for all 6 scat contests. If anyone deserves to get burnout he does. None of the six contests are in his home area. But there are lots of experienced people at these contests. The pilots do a very good job of staging themselves, Bill has the judges ready for the next class befoe the previous one ends.

What would be nice is if the pilots who gain experience from SCAT would carry it over to ther own contests. This year So Cal has around 8 IMAC contests where in the past there were 2. Guess where these people/cd's gained experience?

Hekter, we have missed you this year. How did you get Shawn Tucker to put on a demo at an IMAC contest? Is it as simple as asking? Maybe we could get Kirby Chamblis since he is local?

You can see the full schedule for the SW (actually just California, Arizona, and Nevada) here:

http://www.scaleaerobatics.org/non_scat_schedule.html

Plus some other glider stuff that interests me!!

Bill

Hi Tony,

A full scale demo is NOT just up to the pilot It lies in the Hands of the FAA.. Being a CD is the EASY part .. the 50 returned phone calls to the FAA is a HAIRPULLER... IT was a 7minute flight for Sean D.from his Salinas hangar to our contest..
I'll see you guys at both of the Camarillo contests and at the TAS, I miss having fun with the Phoenix crew..

See you Soon,Dave

Hey Quist Man that would be tough being the CD for 6 contest in one season. I hope you guys really appreciate the dediction and sacrifice that must take my hat is off to aresti 2004 (Bill). I hope I can get down there hit a few fall matchs this year . And we would welcome our southern flying buddies to come up to a match maybe a little fishing or hunting. Mark,