New to IMAC and confused.
12-19-2004 | 09:52 PM
#1
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From: Edwardsville, IL,
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New to IMAC and confused.
Hey guys. I just started flying about a year ago. Up until recently I've heard of IMAC, but had no clue what it actually was. Here in the past few weeks i've been reading into IMAC. I'd like to practice the routine on my simulator, and at the field. Not that i'll be competing any time soon. I just think it would give me some discipline to my flying. Give me something to work towards. Other than just boring holes in the sky. Which is kind of getting boring to me.
I've found the 2005 IMAC Basic routine on the IMAC website. Only problem is...... I'm not sure what a half-cuban 8;5/8 inside loop, 1/2 roll on a 45 degree down-line is. Or any of the other maneuvers for that matter. [&:] There wouldn't happen to be a video of the routine would there? Or a animation of some sort. I kind of get the idea of what everything is by reading definitions of the maneuvers. But some kind of visual demonstration would help me out a lot! Thanks guys!
Who knows.... maybe one day i'll have me a 40% edge out there competing. [8D]
I've found the 2005 IMAC Basic routine on the IMAC website. Only problem is...... I'm not sure what a half-cuban 8;5/8 inside loop, 1/2 roll on a 45 degree down-line is. Or any of the other maneuvers for that matter. [&:] There wouldn't happen to be a video of the routine would there? Or a animation of some sort. I kind of get the idea of what everything is by reading definitions of the maneuvers. But some kind of visual demonstration would help me out a lot! Thanks guys!
Who knows.... maybe one day i'll have me a 40% edge out there competing. [8D]
12-19-2004 | 10:28 PM
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
I can explain what each maneuver is in the 2005 Basic sequence. Hope this helps.
Looks like you and I fly in the same region. You should try and make at least one contest next season. Dont worry about not being prepared or good enough to compete. The Basic category is designed for first timers to see what they think about competing and to just get your feet wet.
Me and a buddy are going to be making a video that will be online in a few weeks that will show each of the 2005 IMAC sequences being flown.
1- Roll. One aileron roll on a horizontal line.
2- Sharks Tooth. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline then you will pull to a 45 degree downline (you are inverted now and thats why the line is dashed red) Do a 1/2 aileron roll and continue the 45 degree downline. The 1/2 roll should be centered on the entire 45 degree downline
3- Stall Turn. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline. Perform a stall turn (rudder the plane from nose straight up to nose straight down) Fly a stright down vertical line and pull to upright.
4- Loop
5- 1/2 Cuban 8. From straight and level pull 5/8 of a loop to a 45 degree downline (inverted at this point) Do a 1/2 roll in the center of the 45 degree downline pull to straight and level.
6- Immellman. From straight and level do a 1/2 loop and at th etop do a 1/2 roll to staright and level.
7- Two turn spin. Slow the plane to a stall while holding level flight. You will need to increase the up elevator as the plane slows. When it stops flying you should be close to full up elevator. Now just add full left or right rudder and some aileron in the same direction. You'll want the plane to rotate two complete revolutions and exit the same direction you entered. Once the rotation is complete push the nose down a little and fly a straight down line then pull to straight and level.
8- Humpty Bump. From straight and level pull to a vertical upline. At the top of the upline pull a 1/2 loop. The plane will now be heading straight down. Do a 1/2 roll centered on the downline.
9- 1/2 reverse Cuban 8. From straight and level pull to a 45 degree upline. Do a 1/2 roll to inverted centered on the 45 degree upline and then pull 5/8 of a loop back to straight and level.
10- 180 degree aerobatic turn. From straight and level complete a 180 level turn with more than 60 degrees of bank and less than 90 degrees of bank.
Looks like you and I fly in the same region. You should try and make at least one contest next season. Dont worry about not being prepared or good enough to compete. The Basic category is designed for first timers to see what they think about competing and to just get your feet wet.
Me and a buddy are going to be making a video that will be online in a few weeks that will show each of the 2005 IMAC sequences being flown.
1- Roll. One aileron roll on a horizontal line.
2- Sharks Tooth. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline then you will pull to a 45 degree downline (you are inverted now and thats why the line is dashed red) Do a 1/2 aileron roll and continue the 45 degree downline. The 1/2 roll should be centered on the entire 45 degree downline
3- Stall Turn. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline. Perform a stall turn (rudder the plane from nose straight up to nose straight down) Fly a stright down vertical line and pull to upright.
4- Loop
5- 1/2 Cuban 8. From straight and level pull 5/8 of a loop to a 45 degree downline (inverted at this point) Do a 1/2 roll in the center of the 45 degree downline pull to straight and level.
6- Immellman. From straight and level do a 1/2 loop and at th etop do a 1/2 roll to staright and level.
7- Two turn spin. Slow the plane to a stall while holding level flight. You will need to increase the up elevator as the plane slows. When it stops flying you should be close to full up elevator. Now just add full left or right rudder and some aileron in the same direction. You'll want the plane to rotate two complete revolutions and exit the same direction you entered. Once the rotation is complete push the nose down a little and fly a straight down line then pull to straight and level.
8- Humpty Bump. From straight and level pull to a vertical upline. At the top of the upline pull a 1/2 loop. The plane will now be heading straight down. Do a 1/2 roll centered on the downline.
9- 1/2 reverse Cuban 8. From straight and level pull to a 45 degree upline. Do a 1/2 roll to inverted centered on the 45 degree upline and then pull 5/8 of a loop back to straight and level.
10- 180 degree aerobatic turn. From straight and level complete a 180 level turn with more than 60 degrees of bank and less than 90 degrees of bank.
12-19-2004 | 10:31 PM
#3
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
dfk,
Right click the link below and do save as. It is a video of the 2004 IMAC Basic Schedule which is very similiar to the 2005 Schedule and it includes the name of the manuver being done just before the manuver starts
http://www.krcs748.com/Basic.wmv
Right click the link below and do save as. It is a video of the 2004 IMAC Basic Schedule which is very similiar to the 2005 Schedule and it includes the name of the manuver being done just before the manuver starts
http://www.krcs748.com/Basic.wmv
12-19-2004 | 10:36 PM
#4
RE: New to IMAC and confused.
Or you can go to the IMAC website and download the Walkthrough that Barry Wegman wrote. You can also download the Aresti Made Simple article and Aresti dictionary as well as the judging summary. Between all of those you should be in great shape.
All are on the upper left corner of the site right below where the sequences are.
BTW Wayne - the aeroabtic turn can have up to and including a 90 degree bank with no downgrade.
All are on the upper left corner of the site right below where the sequences are.
BTW Wayne - the aeroabtic turn can have up to and including a 90 degree bank with no downgrade.
12-19-2004 | 10:42 PM
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
dfk1979
When you go to the IMAC Web Site, notice that April 17th and 18th they are having a IMAC JUDGING and FLYING SCHOOL.
I was in your posseion last year and went to this school and learned a lot about the sequences , maunuvers and judging.
Highly recommend going to this.
Also, Clinton IN has two contest and closer to you, Roxana, IL has two contest next year too.
PS to Wayne:
Are you sure you described that sharks tooth correctly
Aslo Wayne that is you flying my plane in the video with me video taping
When you go to the IMAC Web Site, notice that April 17th and 18th they are having a IMAC JUDGING and FLYING SCHOOL.
I was in your posseion last year and went to this school and learned a lot about the sequences , maunuvers and judging.
Highly recommend going to this.
Also, Clinton IN has two contest and closer to you, Roxana, IL has two contest next year too.
PS to Wayne:
Are you sure you described that sharks tooth correctly
Aslo Wayne that is you flying my plane in the video with me video taping
12-19-2004 | 10:44 PM
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From: Bloomington, IL
RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: aresti2004
BTW Wayne - the aeroabtic turn can have up to and including a 90 degree bank with no downgrade.
BTW Wayne - the aeroabtic turn can have up to and including a 90 degree bank with no downgrade.
Your probably right.
But since its called and "Aerobatic Turn" I have always assumed that the bank had to be beyond 60 degrees.
In 1:1 scale your not "aerobatic" untill your beyond 60 degrees of bank.
12-19-2004 | 10:46 PM
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From: Bloomington, IL
RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: http://www.krcs748.com/Basic.wmv
Hey thats the video Roger Russell and I made last year.
12-19-2004 | 10:51 PM
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
What do you think is in error??
Tell let you in on it, Wayne was calling for me at Clinton, IN and he was calling for the Sharks Tooth and I pulled into the reverse cuban, Wayne thru the call sheet into the air and walked away laughing, of course I got a ZERO
12-19-2004 | 10:51 PM
#10
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: wgeffon
Hey thats the video Roger Russell and I made last year.
ORIGINAL: http://www.krcs748.com/Basic.wmv
Hey thats the video Roger Russell and I made last year.
Yea,
I found it on RCU a while ago and it really helped me to visualize what was required and that is one of the things he was looking for. It's really similiar to this years schedules so I figured it would help.
12-19-2004 | 10:53 PM
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
That was an awesome explanation. I could follow you perfectly on every maneuver description. I appreciate that response. I'll be awaiting your video if you'll let me know when it's available.
Let me know if I have the idea correct here. In a competition... Say it was my turn to take to the sky. The judges would tell me when and where to begin from. Then, I'd have 2 minutes to take to the air. Correct? I would then get airborne heading upwind. Would my first maneuver have to be on the first downwind approach into the !QUOT!box!QUOT!? Also, each maneuver if placed correctly in the box, should allow me to continue onto the next maneuver, correct? Say my first maneuver is the roll(downwind) directly after turning around after take off. Then after completing my roll in the first downwind pass, I would directly go into the sharks tooth at the downwind side of the box? Then after the sharks tooth, heading upwind, I would then move into the stall turn.... And so on, and so on. Am I correct on how it works? Then after my last maneuver I have 2 minutes to land?
I probably just confused the hell out of you. I just want to get the whole process understood, so I can practice it from start to finish.
So much to learn!
Let me know if I have the idea correct here. In a competition... Say it was my turn to take to the sky. The judges would tell me when and where to begin from. Then, I'd have 2 minutes to take to the air. Correct? I would then get airborne heading upwind. Would my first maneuver have to be on the first downwind approach into the !QUOT!box!QUOT!? Also, each maneuver if placed correctly in the box, should allow me to continue onto the next maneuver, correct? Say my first maneuver is the roll(downwind) directly after turning around after take off. Then after completing my roll in the first downwind pass, I would directly go into the sharks tooth at the downwind side of the box? Then after the sharks tooth, heading upwind, I would then move into the stall turn.... And so on, and so on. Am I correct on how it works? Then after my last maneuver I have 2 minutes to land?
I probably just confused the hell out of you. I just want to get the whole process understood, so I can practice it from start to finish.
So much to learn!
12-19-2004 | 11:07 PM
#12
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
This is such a good explanation I created a PDF (Adobe) file and a Microsoft Word Document out of it and it can be downloaded by right clicking the following links and do save as
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.pdf
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.doc
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.pdf
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.doc
ORIGINAL: wgeffon
I can explain what each maneuver is in the 2005 Basic sequence. Hope this helps.
Looks like you and I fly in the same region. You should try and make at least one contest next season. Dont worry about not being prepared or good enough to compete. The Basic category is designed for first timers to see what they think about competing and to just get your feet wet.
Me and a buddy are going to be making a video that will be online in a few weeks that will show each of the 2005 IMAC sequences being flown.
1- Roll. One aileron roll on a horizontal line.
2- Sharks Tooth. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline then you will pull to a 45 degree downline (you are inverted now and thats why the line is dashed red) Do a 1/2 aileron roll and continue the 45 degree downline. The 1/2 roll should be centered on the entire 45 degree downline
3- Stall Turn. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline. Perform a stall turn (rudder the plane from nose straight up to nose straight down) Fly a stright down vertical line and pull to upright.
4- Loop
5- 1/2 Cuban 8. From straight and level pull 5/8 of a loop to a 45 degree downline (inverted at this point) Do a 1/2 roll in the center of the 45 degree downline pull to straight and level.
6- Immellman. From straight and level do a 1/2 loop and at th etop do a 1/2 roll to staright and level.
7- Two turn spin. Slow the plane to a stall while holding level flight. You will need to increase the up elevator as the plane slows. When it stops flying you should be close to full up elevator. Now just add full left or right rudder and some aileron in the same direction. You'll want the plane to rotate two complete revolutions and exit the same direction you entered. Once the rotation is complete push the nose down a little and fly a straight down line then pull to straight and level.
8- Humpty Bump. From straight and level pull to a vertical upline. At the top of the upline pull a 1/2 loop. The plane will now be heading straight down. Do a 1/2 roll centered on the downline.
9- 1/2 reverse Cuban 8. From straight and level pull to a 45 degree upline. Do a 1/2 roll to inverted centered on the 45 degree upline and then pull 5/8 of a loop back to straight and level.
10- 180 degree aerobatic turn. From straight and level complete a 180 level turn with more than 60 degrees of bank and less than 90 degrees of bank.
I can explain what each maneuver is in the 2005 Basic sequence. Hope this helps.
Looks like you and I fly in the same region. You should try and make at least one contest next season. Dont worry about not being prepared or good enough to compete. The Basic category is designed for first timers to see what they think about competing and to just get your feet wet.
Me and a buddy are going to be making a video that will be online in a few weeks that will show each of the 2005 IMAC sequences being flown.
1- Roll. One aileron roll on a horizontal line.
2- Sharks Tooth. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline then you will pull to a 45 degree downline (you are inverted now and thats why the line is dashed red) Do a 1/2 aileron roll and continue the 45 degree downline. The 1/2 roll should be centered on the entire 45 degree downline
3- Stall Turn. From straight and level, pull to a vertical upline. Perform a stall turn (rudder the plane from nose straight up to nose straight down) Fly a stright down vertical line and pull to upright.
4- Loop
5- 1/2 Cuban 8. From straight and level pull 5/8 of a loop to a 45 degree downline (inverted at this point) Do a 1/2 roll in the center of the 45 degree downline pull to straight and level.
6- Immellman. From straight and level do a 1/2 loop and at th etop do a 1/2 roll to staright and level.
7- Two turn spin. Slow the plane to a stall while holding level flight. You will need to increase the up elevator as the plane slows. When it stops flying you should be close to full up elevator. Now just add full left or right rudder and some aileron in the same direction. You'll want the plane to rotate two complete revolutions and exit the same direction you entered. Once the rotation is complete push the nose down a little and fly a straight down line then pull to straight and level.
8- Humpty Bump. From straight and level pull to a vertical upline. At the top of the upline pull a 1/2 loop. The plane will now be heading straight down. Do a 1/2 roll centered on the downline.
9- 1/2 reverse Cuban 8. From straight and level pull to a 45 degree upline. Do a 1/2 roll to inverted centered on the 45 degree upline and then pull 5/8 of a loop back to straight and level.
10- 180 degree aerobatic turn. From straight and level complete a 180 level turn with more than 60 degrees of bank and less than 90 degrees of bank.
12-19-2004 | 11:09 PM
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
The 2 minute rule is hardly ever enforced.
You will takeoff upwind.
I generally turn 90 degrees away from the flight line and then do a 270 degree turn in the opposite direction back to the downwind leg. Use this 90/270 maneuver to climb to your base altitude and position the downwind leg using the 90/270 to set the line you want to fly the entire sequence on. You will want to start the first maneuver into the wind. That will require you to do a turn around at this point. You can either do another 90/270 (90 away from the flightline) or you can do maneuver such as #9 above to get you turned around and pointing into the wind.
You are not in the "box" until your caller calls you "in the Box" to the judges. Generally done on this upwind pass.
Once the judges hear you are in the box they will be looking for you to start with maneuver #1 on that pass. Then just fly each maneuver in order till you are finsihed with the sequence. After you fly it once you will fly the entire sequence again on that same flight. Your judged twice each time up.
You will takeoff upwind.
I generally turn 90 degrees away from the flight line and then do a 270 degree turn in the opposite direction back to the downwind leg. Use this 90/270 maneuver to climb to your base altitude and position the downwind leg using the 90/270 to set the line you want to fly the entire sequence on. You will want to start the first maneuver into the wind. That will require you to do a turn around at this point. You can either do another 90/270 (90 away from the flightline) or you can do maneuver such as #9 above to get you turned around and pointing into the wind.
You are not in the "box" until your caller calls you "in the Box" to the judges. Generally done on this upwind pass.
Once the judges hear you are in the box they will be looking for you to start with maneuver #1 on that pass. Then just fly each maneuver in order till you are finsihed with the sequence. After you fly it once you will fly the entire sequence again on that same flight. Your judged twice each time up.
12-19-2004 | 11:23 PM
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: ROGER RUSSELL
Tell let you in on it, Wayne was calling for me at Clinton, IN and he was calling for the Sharks Tooth and I pulled into the reverse cuban, Wayne thru the call sheet into the air and walked away laughing, of course I got a ZERO
Tell let you in on it, Wayne was calling for me at Clinton, IN and he was calling for the Sharks Tooth and I pulled into the reverse cuban, Wayne thru the call sheet into the air and walked away laughing, of course I got a ZERO
Roger is a guy who started in basic last year and made HUGE progress over the entire season. It was really fun watching him all year.
12-19-2004 | 11:33 PM
#15
RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: bubbagates
This is such a good explanation I created a PDF (Adobe) file and a Microsoft Word Document out of it and it can be downloaded by right clicking the following links and do save as
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.pdf
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.doc
This is such a good explanation I created a PDF (Adobe) file and a Microsoft Word Document out of it and it can be downloaded by right clicking the following links and do save as
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.pdf
http://www.krcs748.com/2005-IMAC-Bas...xplanation.doc
12-19-2004 | 11:37 PM
#16
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From: Bloomington, IL
RE: New to IMAC and confused.
I was wrong. You have it correct.
90 is OK.
In your first post I was thought you were saying any bank including 90 was ok.
beyond 60 and not more than 90 degrees.
90 is OK.
In your first post I was thought you were saying any bank including 90 was ok.
beyond 60 and not more than 90 degrees.
12-20-2004 | 01:05 AM
#17
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From: Edwardsville, IL,
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
Great info guys. I've been flying the sequence on RealFlight G2 for the past hour or two. I've got a loooong way to go. [&:]
I think i'm kind of at a crossroads in my flying. I'm to a point in my flying where I need to decide which route to take. I believe IMAC flying is for me. I've been flying a 4* for the past 4 or 5 months. And i'm pretty comfortable flying it. Anyways, I'm wanting to buy a 3rd plane sometime in the near future. Are these good choices to practice IMAC style aerobatics? Would these planes meet IMAC regulations? And how do these planes differ in fly characteristics from each other?
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHEH1&P=0]Cap 580[/link]
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXS641&P=0]Cap 232[/link]
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJ638&P=0]Extra 300S[/link]
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTJ22&P=0]Sukhoi Breitling[/link]
I think i'm kind of at a crossroads in my flying. I'm to a point in my flying where I need to decide which route to take. I believe IMAC flying is for me. I've been flying a 4* for the past 4 or 5 months. And i'm pretty comfortable flying it. Anyways, I'm wanting to buy a 3rd plane sometime in the near future. Are these good choices to practice IMAC style aerobatics? Would these planes meet IMAC regulations? And how do these planes differ in fly characteristics from each other?
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHEH1&P=0]Cap 580[/link]
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXS641&P=0]Cap 232[/link]
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXJ638&P=0]Extra 300S[/link]
[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXTJ22&P=0]Sukhoi Breitling[/link]
12-20-2004 | 06:58 PM
#20
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From: Edwardsville, IL,
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: aresti2004
In fact, you can fly any of your current crop of planes in Basic. There is no requirement for a scale plane in Basic.
In fact, you can fly any of your current crop of planes in Basic. There is no requirement for a scale plane in Basic.
Shhhh. Don't say that. The wife may be listening. Then how am I going to justify buying a new plane! [X(] I'd like to have a more aerobatic plane. The four-star is very aerobatic. The only thing I don't like about it, is the way it wants to dive when you apply rudder. Plus, a cap looks so much better.
12-20-2004 | 07:22 PM
#21
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: dkf1979
Shhhh. Don't say that. The wife may be listening. Then how am I going to justify buying a new plane! [X(] I'd like to have a more aerobatic plane. The four-star is very aerobatic. The only thing I don't like about it, is the way it wants to dive when you apply rudder. Plus, a cap looks so much better.
ORIGINAL: aresti2004
In fact, you can fly any of your current crop of planes in Basic. There is no requirement for a scale plane in Basic.
In fact, you can fly any of your current crop of planes in Basic. There is no requirement for a scale plane in Basic.
Shhhh. Don't say that. The wife may be listening. Then how am I going to justify buying a new plane! [X(] I'd like to have a more aerobatic plane. The four-star is very aerobatic. The only thing I don't like about it, is the way it wants to dive when you apply rudder. Plus, a cap looks so much better.
For the wife of dkf1979
He really needs a good 33% plane to be competitive. really he does, honest
12-20-2004 | 07:34 PM
#22
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: bubbagates
For the wife of dkf1979
He really needs a good 33% plane to be competitive. really he does, honest
For the wife of dkf1979
He really needs a good 33% plane to be competitive. really he does, honest
Anybody ever tell you thats a fine looking Ultimate you have? You know I've gotta harrass every time I see you still so just count on it. I do hope you are enjoying her.
Scott
12-20-2004 | 07:58 PM
#23
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RE: New to IMAC and confused.
ORIGINAL: chipper11077
Bubbagates,
Anybody ever tell you thats a fine looking Ultimate you have? You know I've gotta harrass every time I see you still so just count on it. I do hope you are enjoying her.
Scott
ORIGINAL: bubbagates
For the wife of dkf1979
He really needs a good 33% plane to be competitive. really he does, honest
For the wife of dkf1979
He really needs a good 33% plane to be competitive. really he does, honest
Anybody ever tell you thats a fine looking Ultimate you have? You know I've gotta harrass every time I see you still so just count on it. I do hope you are enjoying her.
Scott
Long time no see...Good to hear from you
Go ahead harass away, I do it all the time so I can take what I dish out 
I was actually down your way all last week for some network security training
Love the plane, best money I ever spent. I have welll over 150+ flights on it
The 91AC spun the rod bearing after about fifty flights so I threw in a 110FZ turning an APC 17X6 and added smoke and it really kicks butt now, not that it was a slouch with the 91, the 91 flew it strong.
Increased all the throws to the max, went digital HI-tech 5645 all around on 6.0V and you ought to see this thing flat spin both upright and inverted, flat as all heck and climbs at half throttle. Hovers as good as I can, probably better and does the most violent lomcevak I have ever seen. Nice kinfe edge loops as big or tight as you want. I added different stripes to the top wing and tail and added then name of the LHS under the bottom wing. Dang thing turns heads when it's in the air.
The 91AC has since been rebuilt and is flying in my Funtana90 which really hauls it around well turning the Bolly 15X7 prop you sold me.
I'm doing a GP Patty with gas for IMAC this year. I may fly the Ultimate first since I can do all the 2005 basic and most of the sportman with it and it will be my first contest flight so why not fly will a great plane that you are familiar with
