Yes, I am going to continue to fly in the advanced class this year, in fact I am thinking about making the drive to Muncie in July. What I will strive for is consistant scores- round to round. That will show what I am made of. I really like this years known program, and I always make it my point to have more fun than anyone else at a contest.
My previous quote only conveys my frustration with how much money it takes to compete. I believe that the success Imac has had is due to its size, for instance, look at how pattern has dwindled on the local level. And yes, there are $5000 dollar 2M ships also, with $1500 YS motors that don't spool up on the down line.........blah blah blah. in fact, you can build a 40% for less than a pattern ship! However, with my mostly limited budget because I am in school, you will see me with planes like the Widebody 60, ultimate Kaos, and Sig Cap. I just wish that some how everything would not lead to the sophistication of an F1 Race car. The only thing truly have the size for is scale. My Fokker DVII is about 1/4 scale, and the O.S. 120 handles the plane beautifly.

The biggest aircraft I could afford when i started flying IMAC here in Australia was a 65" GP G-202 and I flew that plane till I started to doubt it's integrity. I was able to beat 80" and 90" aircraft but in the end it was too bent and too old to trust. It's now sitting in my flying buddies shed, waiting for his knees to stop shaking... He doesn't wanna splat MY plane!

I'm hunting for a better aircraft but the price outlay is simply too great.

I feel as though I'm being penalised in points by not having an "in crowd" aircraft.

I now only have one competitive aircraft (pattern ship), and with it I'm consistently scoring points in the top two of my class but alas I know that until I have a proper machine theres no point trying, because my scores aren't tallied.

Good for you (staying in Advanced)!!!! If you do make Muncie, I DEFINITELY want to meet you when you come!!! Your competiton philosophy is similar to mine: take care of my OWN scores first, worry about others later (OR NOT AT ALL), and above all, HAVE FUN!!!

I'm curious, how many IMACs did you fly last year in Advanced, how many pilots were in the class, and where did YOU place? (Probably know where I'm going with this).

The answer to all these questions: http://www.mini-iac.com/pages/schedu...lts.asp?ID=313
The plane I flew against was a 42% Edge. The pilot was an unlimited pilot, but he didn't have any competition either. He gave me the 1st place plaque. Also, chek ot on the link how i did in the Freestyle, and you will get a litte better picture of my skill. Steve is a National contender in Unlimited and I flew darn well, but the novice local judges gave me a huge penalty due to size.
I would have done more contests last summer but The closest event other than the one in Minneapolis was in Chicago. Though my 1/4 scale Cap, my gear, and my Girlfriend all fit in my '93 Ford Probe (you gotta see this), I did not have money to travel because of school. Maybe I can talk my Dad into going and flying this year also and we can take his Aerostar(he is also in the link, 1st place Sportsman).
Last year was my first in Advanced, before that I spent 2 years in Sportsman, winning all my contests, and I was told by the unlimited guys that I was ready....
My biggest triumph there was beating a 1/3 scale Laser with a goldberg extra.
(I hope this answers all of your questions )
BTW, what is you history in competition?

After reading most of these posts I think most of you are in dreamland. You cant honestly tell me you think a 60 inch plane on a day with any kind of wind could compete against these larger aircraft. The whole basis on judgment is how precise you enter and exit manures and by these terms no mater how good you are is going to put you at a major disadvantage with a smaller plane. My 12 year old son is going to compete this year with a GP 60 size extra 300. We know he will probably have this major disadvantage. We will do it anyway just because of the competition and the enjoyment of going to these events. If there were a separate class for these smaller planes it would level the playing field and I think if they let it build for a while and let the word get around the entries would go up. You can't get a bad rep to go away overnight.
Just my 2c

I don't know what class your son flies, but if it is Basic, then perhaps smaller pattern type planes will level the field. As we know, pattern planes do fly better because they don't have to compromise flight characteristics in order to look like scale aerobats. For example, the GP Tracer is an economical kit choice ($80 from Tower) that can allow larger plane precision in a smaller size. More info here: TRACER . Another larger possibility for .60 size engines is the $199 Cermark Javelin-II ARF, found here: JAVELIN-II . There are others, I'm sure, but the thought here is that since Basic is the entry level class that allows ANY plane to compete, then here's a choice of tool that gives up little quarter to larger scale planes.

Anticipating a response, no, I don't see allowing pattern planes in other IMAC classes.I don't view Basic as a competition class, rather as a "get your feet wet" class. After one's feet are wet and he decides he likes IMAC, then moving up requires the prerequisite SCALE aerobat. After all, that's what separates us from pattern, right? They fly model airplanes, and we fly models OF airplanes. Their planes fly well because of the design, and our planes fly well IN SPITE OF the design. Having said that, if your son is competing in a class higher than Basic, then yep, his .60 sized GP Extra is at a disadvantage.

Quote:

The whole basis on judgment is how precise you enter and exit manures and by these terms no mater how good you are is going to put you at a major disadvantage with a smaller plane.

Silly me, here I was thinking that manuever entry and exit is something the PILOT did rather than something the PLANE did. I'm no expert, and I guess it shows.

Quote:

We know he will probably have this major disadvantage. We will do it anyway just because of the competition and the enjoyment of going to these events.

You're right, maybe I AM in dreamland, but for me, the FUN factor of the competition, and sharing good times with friends, is the whole deal. The value of my trip isn't measured by where I placed on the scoreboard. Again, I focus on things I CAN control, and don't worry about things I can't.

Hey Brian, you were RIGHT THERE in the Freestyle!!!! Great job. I see your Dad's placing also.

As for me, the only contest I could make last year was the Brazil Spring Wing, my first outing with a gas plane, and my first outing in a new class. I did win, results are here: RESULTS . The year before, I flew in Sportsman class using a Hangar 9 Cap with a Saito 1.80 for power. Yep, almost all planes in my class were larger gassers, but in the 3 contest I flew, I got a second place, a third place, and a fourth place, always in the top half of the field. No, I'm no expert, but I do know what homework is, what practice is, and I concentrate on what I'm doing with *MY* plane, not what you're doing with YOURS.

Quote:

My biggest triumph there was beating a 1/3 scale Laser with a goldberg extra.

hehehe.....wipe that GRIN off your face mister!!!!!

After reading all the post I found last year I was competing against planes alot larger than mine in basic Mike Brown won overall for the year with a 37% plane. He's been flying for years but not competing. Getting to my point just to see what the competitions would be like I drove 300 mile to the TOC of Maryland from New Jersey.
I was there with no planes within 20 minutes of talking to some of the flyers on Friday I had three offers to let me fly there planes (THANKS ROD & CHRIS)one being a 35% Edge. in basic they had all sizes of planes from 60 size thru 33% caps. Now the thing thank brought me in was the fact that people had things happen and planes broke but when you see Eddie Meyer walk over to a Fourteen year old who broke his plane on a harrier landing and let him fly his $3000.00 plus plane this is a group of guys I would like to know. Also thanks to Mike Brown who let me fly his 33% cap at Black Dirt after only meeting me three times and seeing fly twice.
If you are interested in flying IMAC then get to a meet and bring your planes. Talk to the CD and the pilots around let them know your interested in flying and you will find new friends and a good time. And yes size does matter but there were no penalty's for size that I saw and when I fly next with ED ALT I'll speak to him about it.
Kevin Gabelmann

Meh, bleh, all this talk of 33% 40% DA's and ZDZ's is leaving a bad taste in my mouth and sore feeling in my hip pocket.

I'm going back to 2 meter ships and ST2300's.

You can do it cheap, if you choose to.

Hey Tim, good job in the Intermediate class! It looked like a very good contest, with 4 of the 6 flyers in your class winning a round. I also saw Dan and Dave in the unlimited class- did you talk to them? they are a couple of real nice guys. They travel a lot- They were at the Minneapolis contest the year before, and after watching me win the sportsman class They said that I just had to do advanced the following year. Since I had my rollers down I Did.
The biggest problem with having a small plane in the Advanced and Unlimited classes is the snaps- a larger plane snaps slower and easier to control- ESPECIALY on the vertical and 45 degree lines. That IMO is the only drawback to a small plane, other than "presentation" . You may have a little more time to think during the rolling turns also, but if you got them down, it wont matter.
So Tim, are you going to do Intermediate this year? Or are you the next 33% guy that I have to beat? (sigh)
I only have 3 contests planned for IMAC this year- the Minneapolis one, the ChicagoLand Cup and I hope Muncie. The only Flaw in that scheule is they all happen in about 4 weeks and the nationals are first on the calendar
What are some of the specs on your plane? Engine, Servos, weight, etc.....

Yep, Dan and Dave ARE nice guys, know them both, and enjoy watching them fly.

Guess I'm one of the guys you'll have to beat, because I decided to move up to Advanced this year (go easy on an old man!).

I do hope you make Muncie this year, I'd like to meet you. There is a possibility that I might make the Chicagoland, I'll let you know.

I fly a Great Planes 330L pulled by a BME 102 controlled by a Futaba Super8 transmitter, talking to twin Multiplex receivers, controlling Hitec 5945 servos (formerly JR 8411s). The plane weighs just under 24 pounds, now that I have removed the rarely used smoke system. One thing I like about the plane (other than its flight characteristics) is that I don't see many of them. It's funny to be told that even though it has the size, it's only a good "sport" plane, that one needs a "Whiz Bang Super 680" for serious contest work (guess at $325 for the kit, it didn't cost enough money!). I finished in front of some Super 680s with my Hangar 9 Cap, and I finished in front of many of them with my Plain Jane 330L. You've taken your Cap and done the same thing! My feeling is that regardless of what plane you have, you've STILL gotta fly it, right? Pics and a short flight video are here: MY PLANE

Hey Tim, are you the one flying the plane? If you can do rolling circles with alternating the roll direction, well only one class has that. I feel bad for the pilots in your intermediate class last year!
I'll keep you up to date with my calendar as it is made

Well ............. yeah, I'm the pilot (surprise, surprise!). No need to send you video of someone else flying my plane. Oh well........

Real Flight lets you practice and get decent doing lotsa stuff. Nothing magic, anyone can do it.

Anyway, do keep me posted, hope to meet you in person.

I was witness to Tim doing that same rolling circle in about 20-25 mph winds......the man is super smooth. I pity anyone who steps up to fly in a competition with this man.....see Tim knows the secret. In the off season, other guys are out buying new planes, motors and high end radios. Tim buys fuel, and maybe outfits his plane with new servos. He then goes out and kicks butt with last years plane, (because he and the plane have become "ONE"), and grins all day doing it. I love hanging around and flying with this man. Now if only some of his wisdom would rub off on me...

Looking forward to this years IMAC events.....

Pugs

Pugs, the secret is out, it wasn't me, it was my evil twin doing the flying!

Hey, the first IMAC around here is Clinton the first weekend of May. You flying? Ready for some practice?

Some folks have started to allude to it. Size restrictions. No one argues that larger scale planes fly the sequences MUCH better than smaller one's. Add in a little headwind and it only gets worse.
I like the idea of limiting the size of the planes in the lower classes? Scale percentage, engine size, whatever. Try competing in Sportsman with an 25% ultimate bipe and a getting tired MDS1.48 against a 40% FC Extra! Anyone with even a SMALL amount of practice with the Extra is going to present better than the Ultimate will and consequesntly will score better.

I think it's still an interesting issue. I believe IMAC would like to have classes won by winning pilots not by winning planes. The rules allude to not being biased by airplane size, presentation, etc. The simple fact however, is that big airplanes are easier to fly well than small ones. Nobody can convince me otherwise. Now that "big" means 40% and beyond, there is more difference than ever between people who can buy their way up and those who can't (or don't want to).

Another thought I had, and some have already expressed in this thread, is that an airplane limit that reflects the class being flown seems to make some sense. For example, Basic class will be flown with basic airplanes while Unlimited class will be flown with unlimited airplanes. Breakthrough concept huh? The definition of basic and unlimited airplanes can be defined much like the sequence itself. That is, by a committee of intelligent people that know the current state and trends of the hobby. We don't have to have five different classifications of airplanes either. Maybe there is only two. Basic/Sportsman, and Intermediate/Advanced/Unlimited.

Just a thought.

Meanwhile, I read the flying and judging guide cover-to-cover (33 pages) and I'm working out with the simulator. Last weekend at the field went very well. Still learning how to use the rudder for course corrections.

Gentlemen,

Sorry it took me so long to jump in. I'm new to this forum -not to RCU or IMAC (not by a long shot).

I pretty much started IMAC here on the east coast and our contest (the Capitol IMAC) is one of the largest in he country. That having been said, we initially embraced and encouraged the mini-mac concept. Unfortunately, not once did we have a plane show up that qualified under the rules. There have been a couple of contests that have had a modicum of success, but it was as limited as short lived.

Some of my IMAC/pattern buds have discussed the issue of mini-mac at length. We have found that the current size restrictions are too limiting. However, the real fault - I believe - is in the marketing/focus of mini-imac. Here's what I (we) came up with:

1. Mini-imac should be a separate event and not be included like a sideshow of a "regular" IMAC contest. This makes the event far more approachable. The idea is a lower the cost/intimidation factor and keep the event simple. The name should be changed to better bring home the intent of this venue. In our discussions, we refer to it as "Club IMAC". The idea being that it would run at a more local level much like combat or pylon (quickee).

2. The maneuvers are not conducive to the size/power of the proposed planes. As such there should be new sequences drawn that are more in keeping with the abilities of qualified designs. I would also propose that there be no more than 3 classes: Sportsman, Intermediate, and Advanced. Each with increasing degree of difficulty. The sequences could be drawn based on a single sequence with components added (to increase difficulty) to each maneuver appropriate to the class. This makes sequence development easier. This would also make judging easier as there would be a common thread between class sequences.

2a. The format of the contest should be standardized. Unknowns should be included. The difficulty of the unknowns should be no greater than the compulsory sequences.

3. This is a tough one: size/weight/engine. There are many ways to approach this. You could set a "global" standard or make extend the limits based on the class. I would suggest a maximum of a 1.5 cu in. displacement. After that, fly what you want.

4. Last, but certainly not least. The IMAC BoD is harly interested in mini-mac. Success will require a concerted effort of several energetic persons willing to step up and put the concept together. This would be presented to the board, and ultimately AMA for provisional status.

I'm going to close now. We have always believed that there's been a grass roots interest in mini-mac, err "Club IMAC". All that is needed is action. Someone to take these notions and build on it. When I founded the CAPI seven years ago, we only had 9 pilots. Our club (which is BIG on pylon) wasn't very enthusiastic. Now the "CAPI" is the darling of the club. To use the catch phrase:

"Build it, and they will come."

Exiting (soap) Box.


Marc Spicer
Contest Director & Founder
7th Annual Capitol IMAC
Bowie, Maryland
July 11-13th, 2003
www. aerobatix.com (Official Site)

I do have to agree I had a lot of fun flying my first contest at the CAPI last year and look forward to this years contest.
The guide lines look good for club imac another thing nice is that it could be flown at some of the smaller fields. Tha might also bring in some more people.
Kevin

mdspicer1, Now that's what I'm talking about. Thank you very much for the thoughtful response. You have hit on several issues I've been thinking about.

BTW, my club used to do IMAC way back when. The field was reallocated (public property) and the airplanes got bigger. We simply don't have enough room now.

I like everything you said. Even the name sounds approachable and fun. Does this proposal have any momentum yet? I'd also like to add to #4 that the industry can have a huge influence. All a guy needs to see in a magazine ad is "Great for Club IMAC", or something like that, and you may have a participant.

Keep up the good work.

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your compliments. As you can tell from my response, I think the concept is the right idea for the times. I am considering putting together a contest here on the east coast, perhaps in September. The problem is that there's not a lot of time to get it in motion. The items on the "list" are do-able, but will take time and dedication. Hell, I don't even have a plane that qualifies ready to fly (I have a 1.20 size Dalotel).

If we are going to do it, let us decide right here - right now. Let me know what your thoughts are on the subject. I will start on a to-do list and will publish it on this thread by Tuesday.

If you wish to be involved, please e-mail me directly at [email protected]. Please include:

Name
E-mail
AIM/ICQ # (if applicable)
Where you live
Contest Director Status
Club Influence (club official, board member, etc.)

At first glimmer, we should establish a 1/2 dozen contests around the country - at one to two in each IMAC region. I know this sounds aggressive, but if we are serious - and not all talk - it can be done.

I can vouch for ne, possibly two contests in the NE region. I could probably get one going in Northern VA.

What say you?

Marc

Marc, I hear you. I know there are some in this thread that think Minimac is a terrible idea but they couldn't answer the simple question: Is Minimac too mini? The answer is an obvious yes. I was very excited about the concept when I built my GP Extra .40, but it took more than a .50 to get it to perform! That's a fairly tiny plane as well.

Minimac is beyond saving under the control of the current IMAC board. The best solution is to start fresh.

I'll send you an email. We may be able to work out something for this summer.

Ryan,

Its an easy question to answer. The rules were based on a 20+ year old concept. The entire industy has changed and its time for the rules to change as well.

I've long gotten the impression that IMAC powers-that-be would like mini-imac to go away. The fact is, it could foster more involvement by making the sport more accessible. A lot of clubs would love to host an IMAC contest, but their fields/environment will not permit it.

My club has over 250 members. Many of which fly scale aerobatic aircraft. None to my knowledge have less than a .91, while most have Saito 1.5 and 1.8. Collectively we'll have to agree on a set of rules that make sense.

Marc

I am going to start flying IMAC this year...I would love to fly mini-mac, but there aren't any contests anywhere that I've heard advertised, so I'll just give 'em heck with my 50cc gasser in the regular classes. I think I'll have fun for a couple of years with the 50cc plane no matter what class I'm in, so it really doesn't make a difference for me. I know I would have gotten into IMAC quite a few years ago if mini-mac had become a reality.

If your club only has .90 - 1.8 sized planes just hold a club sponsored "basic" contest, IMAC doesn't even have to be involved or know about it, just use their sequence, judging guide, and rules...call it a "Fun Fly" and everyone will be happy!

Guys,
you could put on a Mini-IMAC contest and as the CD request a rules waiver to make the wing span 80" (or any other criteria you chose to establish). This is a very simple process, and the waiver would be aproved (I'd almost guarantee it). Just advertise that you are deviating from established rules so guys don't show up with their .40 size Great planes Extra only to be suprised that they will be flying against larger planes.

Additionally, if you would like to see the rules for Mini-iac changed on a permanent basis, all it would take is a well written rules proposal. Bottom line, if you can generate interest, there's nothing stopping you. I definitely believe it's worth putting together a contest to see if the interest is truly there. No doubt there are guys around who want to fly aerobatics with scale looking planes without breaking the bank.

Consider one other issue here. Let's say "Club IMAC" is formed (I also think this is well thought out Mark), and let's just assume, the wing span is set to 80" with a 1.8 displacement limit. We could build a Midwest Extra with a Moki 1.8 for let's say around $1000 total. This could be a competitive airplane. Now year two rolls around. Some guy really wants an advantage to "be competitive". So he builds an 80" plane out of composites, price go's up to $1500. Next year another guy invents a super charger for the 1.8, now we are aproaching $2000. Next servo's...... you get the idea. If you have true competition, it will eventually be expensive.

Personnaly, I'd love to see a "one design" competition. Everyone has to fly the same airframe and motor, similar to IROC. Now we can truly see who's the best! No sponsors, no $10K super wammerdine plane, just an even playing field. Can you see all the big names duking it out with a Hanger 9 Cap? Oh well, it's fun to dream.

Kev