This issue has been beat to death all over the internet, it has been for years, and always for the same reason - someone feels at a disadvantage because they don't have the bigger hardware. what is amusing are the rather of "novel solutions" that are suggested, and the lack of effort that the complainers are willing to expend to advance their views.

a number of points: first, if you want to do a little airplane event, you don't need a waiver, you don't even need a sanction. if you want to put on a contest with a wingspan limit, just do it. whether you call it an imac contest really doesn't matter. it is worth consdering writing sequences that would be more appropriate for smaller airplanes. but keep in mind that limiting wingspan to 80" or whatever the number isn't going to make the guy with the .60 size extra and 4 channel analog radio feel any better. to him, it's still a money game when he is pitted against a well set up 80" airplane with one of them computer radios.

a rules proposal has little chance of success. the climate towards mini anything has never been warm, the originators of mini mac are long gone, and there were only a handful of them anyway. the imac "leadership" has never paid attention to mini mac, because there was no need - as long as contests are many, and attendance is bright, there is no need to dedicate resources to such a minor issue. moreover, recent changes in the rules process will result in greater scrutiny of rules proposals, and few CDs are going to want the headache of managing two contests. the best thing really is to write mini mac out of the rules, that proposal would probably go through.

i have said this for years, and here it is again. any limit iis purely arbitrary and has no basis in logic or reason. recently, i have heard some people advocate 50cc as a new upper limit - of course because that is what they have, but have you really leveled the playing field when you combine a .60 anything with a 50cc airplane? not at all. there are also serious safety issues - how many CDs would agree to accept liability for limiting basic by wingspan and putting a pilot in sportsman simply because his airplane is larger? is that something that would be supported by the AMA? highly doubtful.

if you guys really feel strongly about this, the "fix" is easy enough. do it youself. put on a contest, use existing or write your sequences, and put the wingspan limit and whatever you think makes sense. but if you really want to go that route, make sure you bring your rulers, because some guy that changed the wing caps on his MW Extra to 1/4" instead of 1/16" balsa is going to be over 80" and that is the kind of nonsense you'll be asked to enforce - and it was your idea in the first place!

In reading all the post to this question, I have one issue that hasn't been mentioned, but adds some degree of merit to the mini-mac in my opinion.....

Field Size!!!!

There are a great number of good flying fields where an aerobatic contest could be held, but not with a 40% model.....they just eat up too much air space too fast.

There has to be a number of clubs that have IMAC members that would love to host a contest at their field, but their field doesn't present them the opportunity for a 30% to 40% model, but could handle a 40 / 60 size model based contest fairly easily.

I honestly believe there is a place for 40 / 60 size aerobatic contests, where you can get a taste of the requirements to fly controlled aerobatics and have fun as well before moving up to basic and the "Big Boys".

Additionally I don't think coming up with a set of rules would be a problem. Its suppose to be fun, so make the rules a little more open and relaxed.

I think the the hardest part of this whole experence would be finding the right people with the extra time to organize this style of event.

If you look at the current Basic sequence you can fly that whole thing with any 40-60 size plane with ease if the planes are kept light and are not too far over weight for their size. you can use the cirrent Imac rules and Judging critiera for this so everone will get a feel for how the Big Boy's do it. I think it would work on a Club level to start off with, and may be get bigger later on. Keep thinking this way and it will happen!! Rick.

I have just been getting into IMAC in the NW region - a few contests yr before last and about 8 last year. My impression re mini-MAC is this.

1) In addition to 8 plus contests, I would like to attend more contests without having to drive 300+ miles and therefore would welcome another competition format.
2) Size of the closest airfield, which is in an in-town park, is a huge issue. 50 cc engines are probably the max tolerable. The next field (for big stuff) is 45 minutes away for me.
3) Many of the basic and sportsman pilots in this region do have 50cc and smaller planes which we use for practice at size restricted airfields.
4) A mini-IMAC at the park airfield would be very welcome, and as there are aprox 300 members, it would likely encourage some now on the fence to start competition.
5) In our region we are starting to see 35% planes in basic and 40% planes in sportsman. There is a big difference in how these planes fly and glow sized planes. This is fine with me, but it does discourage a lot of folks from going to any IMAC contest with a small plane.
6) It seems to me that where the real airplane cost begins to hurt is when you pass the single cyl to twin, one servo per control surface breakpoint.
7) In addition to cost, time is a factor. Some pilots can not get the two days needed to fly a normal IMAC but are able to do a one day. Also field availability increases when a host club only has to dedicate one day and personel for support is more likely to be available. The small contest factor also works in favor of mini-IMAC because with a small number of pilots things go much more smoothly at any contest. There is less waiting around to fly and perhaps single instead of double flight lines all of which helps a novice feel less pressured.

My view is let's encourage any form of mini or "CLUB IMAC" to increase avalability of aerobatic competition and interest and support for it. With respect to IMAC as it is, I personally think the present rules are fine - it's not broke so don't mess with it.

I'm a proponent of R/C events, all of 'em. Those are things that keep the hobby strong and enjoyable.

What I am beginning to find is there are really a lot of R/C events, both locally and nationally. No matter how hard you try, there are always competing events for the same date you may want to run a contest. If it isn't a club's well known fun fly event... it'll be Joe Nall.

Our club has 4 events scheduled this year.
There are at least 3 other clubs with "similiar" events scheduled within 30 miles... fun fly, builders contest, scale events, float fly, pattern event, ect., but there are only 2 IMAC contests within 200 miles of our club... the 2 we are hosting. The other IMAC events are several hours away and of course, have the associated expenses (hotel, fuel, food, misc.).

My point, IMAC is a distinctive R/C event with several classes, has broad appeal, offers everyone the opportunity to participate, and has a full up, nationally recognized organization behind it. The challenge IMAC leadership has is stimulating more IMAC contests from the all ready established R/C Clubs across the country.

There are examples of states (with hundreds of R/C clubs) and not a single IMAC contest is hosted in the state. Just check across your regions and look.

If a well defined/organized event, mini-mac, is what stimulates an R/C club to host an IMAC contest... "giddie-up"! If your club feels the limit for the mini-mac event is 1.20 sized birds... advertise 1.20 as the limit and coordinate with your regional director to make it happen.

You'll probably get lots of questions if you decide to run a mini-mac event. If I fly my 1.20 bird in your event, will the points I earn in your event be credited towards my IMAC regional standings? (You can bet there will be more questions like this to follow.)

However, if mini-mac is just another fun fly, float fly, open house, builders contest, loosely organized type of event... "off with it's head"! IMAC should avoid association or sponsoring events that don't promote or foster what IMAC has to offer the R/C community.

The IMAC I know today is well organized and is targeted as to what it offers the R/C community. IMAC should stay focused on what it is today and work hard towards targeting R/C clubs to begin their full support and association with IMAC.

Would the Great Planes Extra 300 .40 with a .61 2 stroke be allowed to fly in BASIC? Or is it too small, it would be nice if some of us younger folks could compete.

Shane

Hi Shane,
You can fly your 'foamie' in basic if you want. ;-) There is no restriction in basic on the airframe. I CD the contest near St. Louis and have seen many competitors fly several kinds of planes in basic.
Cheers

From the 'Official IMAC' Scale Aerobatics Ruels, Flying, & Judging Guide
General Rules Scale Aerobatics:
3. Open Events
3.1. The events accomodate aerobatic monoplanes and biplanes which are replicas of types known to have competed in International Aerobatic Club (IAC) competition, or replicas of types known to be capable of aerobatic competition within the airspace known as the "Box".
3.2. All classes except Basic require that the pilot must meet the requirements defined in Rule 3.1. The Basic Class is open to all competitors with a monoplane or biplane aircraft. There is no minimum size requirement for any class. Contest Directors may make an exception for a model of a full-scale aircraft that was built for IAC competition, but has not yet completed. Proof of the latter is the responsibility of the contestant.

Well, I am very interested in flying in ANY IMAC type competition, but there aren't any in the North Central part of the U.S. Hard to believe that in North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota I can't track down ONE contest. There must not be any interest in the North Central part of the U.S. That is my only conclusion...so, besides the size factor now I face the travel factor. I would drive 500 miles to attend a contest, but there aren't any within 500 miles of Eastern North Dakota that I've heard of. If there is one, please tell me. You'd think the Minniapolis/St.Paul area would have at least ONE.[]

In all seriousness, if you held a Mini-IMAC competition in Minniapolis, MN or Sioux Falls, SD I bet no one would show up. I am sorry to say it is my observation that most of the people that only fly .40 or .60 sized planes don't have the dedication to practice, the interest in increasing skill, or the competative drive to get out there and lay it all out in front of judges. Another point, most of the people that only fly .40 and .60 sized planes don't have ANY exerience in being a judge, much less a Contest Director! When was the last time an IMAC Judging Clinic was held in the North Central U.S. anyway? And no one would care if the points counted toward their IMAC Regional standing, because they will probably only attend ONE or TWO contests a year at the most, and that is if BOTH Mini-IMAC contests that year were held within driving distance! People don't play baseball in North Dakota either...many sports are regional, and model flying is too, I guess.

I guess I'll just have to move.

Put on a contest. See what happens, it might take off.

FlyinTiger, there will be at least one IMAC event in the Twin Cities this summer. I think it will be at the St Paul field. Not sure about the date.

I fly .40 and .60 size and I fly everyday, I have my own runway.

Shane

You must have skis on your extra this time of year...

I did only refer to "most people" that fly .40 and .60 sized planes. Remember, we are part of a relatively small group that wants to fly for competition to make ourselves better, and to have fun with others who hold themselves to a higher standard.

Flyfalcons: Yes, I finally found one, it is an annual IMAC event held at the St. Paul Model R/C, Inc. field north of the city. It was the 28-29 Aug last year, so I'll look for it at the end of August this year. I will make sure I make it to that one, I promised. Are there any before the end of the Summer?

Falcon_az said: "Put on a contest. See what happens, it might take off."

First I have to be "certified" as a Contest Director by the IMAC with absolutely NO experience even flying in IMAC contests...hmm. Then I could hold a contest...let's see which club in Minneapolis club would let me do it? I am not a member of any of the Minneapolis/St.Paul clubs, so that would be a little tough...

I'll drive down from North Dakota - 5 hours - and aerobatixkid will have to ship his plane and fly from Berwick, Nova Scotia in Canada (24 hour drive) and we'll compete against eachother without any judges. I gave up on Mini-IMAC the first year after it came out and no one held a contest that was anywhere near where I lived.[&o]

Flyin' Tiger... try snowmobiles. You'll like that hobby.

Skis!? You bet! Got them off now though, Gonna fly off the hard snow tommorow with a friend, we're hardcore up here in Canada.

I like aerobatixkid already! My kind of person.[8D] If it wasn't 2400 miles from my house to yours I might make a trip to fly with you. Maybe some other time.

There was another thread earlier this year going over the same issues as this one. The result of it was bigger planes get judged with better scores more often than not. If you want to compete in IMAC with other "competitors" then you want to fly bigger planes. If you want to know why people don't enter its because its not welcoming. I was all set and ready to start flying a .90 sized plane this year. After listening to all of it including the gestation of size limits based on everything from engine size to prop size to wingspan, the basic message was still the same. If you want to compete beyond the basic and a bit of intermediate you will fly a big airplane. Well, I found a solution to the problem, because bigger airplanes just don't interest me. Could I afford one? Yes. But I have no interest in putting that much money into a hobby. You can argue that I just don't care to compete against the big boys who are truely good. Having been an olympic class competitor in another sport I can tell you that is bunk. My solution was very simple. I decided to compete in an aerobatic event that allows me to compete and move to any level of competition I want. Its called Pattern. I stopped buiding a backup plane to fly IMAC and bought a .90 sized Pattern Plane. Are there still bigger ones? Yup. But the range of size is not so great. And I'll be able to move up gradually knowing that the size of my airplane will not affect my scoring to the extent it does as you move up in IMAC. I think, and its just MHO, that IMAC may more than a problem with how its percieved by people considering entering it. I have competed in events where size, money, and reputation have large determinating impact to the competition. At one point my reputation began to preceed me and I quite, because it was no longer competion.

bob