Why Fly Basic?
 

I have been to 2 events now and at both the the basic class has been ripped off on rounds. It seems as if it is not important enough and gets pushed aside to make sure the other classes get all their rounds in. It seems to me we drive the same distance and pay the same entry fee but we havent flown 1 full round in 2 events on sunday. One event we didn't fly at all on sunday after getting a hotel and staying overnight. They say it is because time restraints but I don't see them cutting out the other classes. By the way the last event we made up 1/4 of the pilots.
OK now that I have vented let me know what you think. This is supposed to be the future of this competition.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Here in the Northwest Region, we place a very high importance on the Basic class. Since I started competing in IMAC in 2001, Basic has always flown as many or more sequences than the other classes. When the higher classes fly their unknown rounds, we let Basic fly one or two sequences. At our first contest this year, we even had basic fly 1 more sequence than the other classes. We do not have a championships points race for Basic because we try to encourage the better starting pilots to move to Sportsman, where they will be flying under the same rules as the 3 other classes (Intermediate, Advanced, and Unlimited).
- Francis

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

That is totally weak!

First ,they should only charge half the entrance fee for basic.I though that was the deal to get people envolved.At the pattern contest they where all like that.$5 bucks I think.The basic sequence goes by fast.They only give yearly standings(points) to sportsman and above.

[:@][:o][&o]:(


IF YOU ARE HOLDING A CONTEST AND ARE CHARGING FULL PRICE FOR ENTRANCE FEE FOR BASIC!STOP!NOW!oBEY ME!

ScottC

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

At times IMAC treats Basic as the "Red Headed Step child". It is important to let them fly all the rounds that the other class' fly. During the unknowns they should have basic fly one known sequence. Not all IMAC contests treat basic pilots bad.

At the first 2 contests that I have flown this year there have been 33 basic pilots, that is the future of Scale Aerobatics. At both of these contests the basic pilots flew 7 known sequences. Although this was not IMAC it was SCAT, they both are scale aerobatics.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

At the only contest I CD'd, Basic flew more rounds than any other class. This is because Sunday had only 1 unknown for all other classes, but basic flew the usuall two, and then the afternoon rounds were normal for everybody. I had the father of one of the basic pilots complain because the contest would drag on another hour. I told him he was welcome to leave and zero all afternoon rounds.

I think you have a local issue. They either want you to move up or go away.

-Darin
Ex-NW regional director

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

To piggy back on what Tony was saying, it sounds to me that they dont care about basic and/or are running a poorly run contest. time management is the key to get EVERYONE to fly thier rounds and on time. it can be done. SCAT does it quite well, with 45+ pilots the norm. a dozen or more basic pilots too..

They especially should pay attention if basic makes up 25% of your showing!

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

The contest are only as good as the people putting them on. I think IMAC needs help all the way around, in our state Minnesota, your lucky to have 15 people show up.
We started in it last year,went to one event had fun, decided to host a contest this year, but I am loosing interest fast.
If IMAC wants to grow they better start helping the new guys.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Hi,

33 pilots, 7 sequences @ ~6 min. per sequence = 23.1 hours of flying time. I averaged the time to take into account landing and take-off. How many other classes were there? Where did they fly? How many flight-lines did you run? How long was the meet?

Some people are full of ..it:eek:

Willem

P.S. Congrats on your B-day, Kyle! Stick with it;)

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

At the contest in question we flew off two flight lines. We flew a total 315 scored sequences over the course of the 2 days. We were done on Sunday at 2 pm. Flying started at 8:30 each day

Basic had 14 pilots. The reference to 33 pilots in the earlier post was to the total attendance at the first 2 JR-SCAT Series contest in 2004. As it was, Basic took an average of 1:5 minutes to fly a 2 sequence round. That is close to an average of 5 minutes per pilot.

Two things are at work here. The first is that the JR-SCAT Series has designed its sequences from the ground up to fly quickly with a minimum of wasted time in free passes and driving across the box needlessly. The second is that we work very hard to keep pilots moving. We always have the next 2 pilots staged. We launch the next pilot before the guy ahead is done (he goes deep and stays out of the way until his time to enter the box). We get the next guy up immediately in the event of a deadstick and so on.

As I keep harping on pilots at a contest, if each and every pilot at a 50 person event wastes just 30 seconds per sequences (easy to do) that will cost us nearly 2 hours lost time.

Bill Malvey
Director JR-SCAT Series

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

That typo should read that the 14Basic pilots took 1 hour and 5 minutes to fly a 2 sequence round.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Hi,

I figured he was talking about the entire attendance as 33 pilots, but he said 33 basic pilots:eek: Just cutting down on the BS. The meet that this thread refers to had 40 pilots of which 13 were basic I believe. Everyone flew 2 1/2 flights on Saturday and basic flew a single sequence flight on Sunday. The other classes flew a single seqence known and an unknown, so basic had one sequence less than the other classes. I agree that they could have fitted a full flight (2 sequences) for basic on Sunday. There were quite a few free-style pilots and we all went home at 4:30 (some with 7 hours or more of driving ahead).

Sometimes the availibility of judges required to judge a round has more to do with it than the time availible. The judges for the basic round on Sunday in this example still needed time to study their unknown and fly another known.

We all would like to fly 20 rounds at a meet, but the reality of it is that you can only expect 5-7 sequences per weekend. It's not about the quantity of flying, it's about the quality, so make each sequence count!

Later,

Willem

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

I was the Line Boss for the last contest referenced here. Complain all you want, but for a two day contest, ours had the most flying of any Florida contest yet this year, with 38 pilots (10 in Basic). Most pilots were very good about getting airborne on cue. Personally, I would have liked to see Basic fly a full two-sequence round on Sunday, but judges' time became an issue. A seventh sequence would not have allowed another sequence drop, so it's unlikely that contest results would have changed dramatically. One issue that screwed things up a little was not having the unknowns available until Sunday morning (not a purposely made decision). That required us to make time available to the contestant judges to study.

Something to learn about contests... It's very difficult to make one person happy, quite another to make 38. Learning to run a contest takes a few years, and good people skills. Complaining about being shorted one SEQUENCE (not a whole round, as was claimed) doesn't help. In actuality, Basic was allowed two sequence drops, just like any other class. Unknowns cannot be dropped, and do not count towards the six required to drop two. Then again some people will complain about a free lunch that's served cold.

Frankly, I think contests in FL are getting too populated, and next year we may require pre-registration to keep the numbers under 36 pilots. If kept to under 30-35, four rounds may be possible for all, weather permitting.


Well, see next year.

Erich Freymann
Bay City IMAC "Line Nazi"

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Complaining about being shorted one SEQUENCE (not a whole round, as was claimed) doesn't help.


To be truthful I didn't really go into it in true detail. We flew 2 1/2 rounds on Sat. and 1/2 round on Sun. We did not fly one whole round on sunday. We were not told we were not going to fly the final full round on Sunday until we were finished with the 1/2 round.
To be honest I really don't care I figure the writting is on the wall and we will just fly Sportsman in the future.
The question is when everyone else takes this attitude and there is no basic left where will they
shorten the program then?

Hey Willem
Ididn't get your e-mail before I left. I'd like to get together with you sometime and have Kyle get some pointers.
Let me know.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Our club here fly's knowns on Saturday unknowns on Sunday basic fly's another round of knowns and we strongly encourage only first timers and guy without IMAC legal planes fly basic.Try to keep out the sand baggers. Mark,

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

I said 33 basic pilots in TWO contests. 14 in one and 19 in the other. That is fact not BS.

As soon as the pilot finishes his seqence he moves to the side to the next pilot can start before the previous pilot has landed. As a pilot you take off when the pilot in front of you has 2 manuevers left. That way the you are ready to enter the box when the previous pilot has completed his sequence.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

This is exactly the result of treating basic as second class. Each class has a set of skills to master, including basic. I can always tell the pilots that skipped basic, they can snap, they can do rollers, they can do it all, except fly a straight line. Essentially, basic is designed to teach the very basic skill of flying a straight line and round loops. When I was in basic, I though a 45 degree line with nothing on it was stupid. Now I appreciate that this taught drawing a straight line. You should stay in basic until you are getting 7s on your lines. Then you are ready to move up.

If your local CDs are giving you short shrift in basic, you should complain, and loudly. You should not feel as though you have to move up to join the fun. You should be having the fun.

Bill gave you our SCAT secret - sequence construction and keeping it moving. Currently, the IMAC basic sequence has 4 passes in it. If it takes 10 seconds to make a pass and you fly 7 sequences in a contest with 20 basic pilots, those passes cost the event over 1.5 hours. Then you have the passes in the other classes. I understand the intent with the IMAC sequence design, but they are clearly designed to promote an agenda, not to help contests run smoothly and efficiently.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Hey Barry,
I "ran" into you at the Basin last week. I'm on my way out the door to get a new plane so I'll be ready for the SCAT contests coming up. I'll be flying basic. Did you get a new plane up?

Richard

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Basic is a class overlooked by CD's sometimes but even moreso by pilots. Too often people look at Basic and say "I can do that stuff.. I should fly Sportsman."

WRONG. I see WAY too many people moving up too fast who don't have a firm grasp on the most basic of elements. Unless you can fly the Basic sequence and get 8's every time with the occasional 9 or 10, you shouldn't move up. You NEED to learn the building blocks before you start in with the tougher maneuvers.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

I absolutely agree with this. Sadly, when CD's and other pilots place a heavy stigma on the Basic Class, as is often done, then it makes it hard for a pilot to stay where he should be until he develops the necessary skills to compete in the upper classes.

Basic is the lifeblood of aerobatics. Without it there will not be any upper class pilots, at least not any worth taking the time to judge!!

Basic is often one of the most competitive classes at the JR-SCAT Series contests, and I love seeing that!!! These guys are serious competitiors and not any less so just because their sequence is not as difficult as anohter.


In fact, Doug's criteria for moving out of Basic should be used for all classes. If you are not consistently near the top and scoring well all the time, then that is evidence that you still have something to learn where you are.

Bill

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Hi Richard,

Yep. I got my 39% Edge 540T done on last Thursday. I flew it, even took it to Phoenix. I shook it out some and found a loose engine box. That will be fixed this weekend.

They are having the annual Rally of the Giants this weekend in Camarillo. They are a great bunch of guys and its a safer place to fly. <G> I'm going to try to make it on Sunday.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Well with only two planes in the air it could happen anywhere but I know what you mean. I don't know if I'm going to be able to make it out to Camarillo as I have two planes to maiden on Saturday and Sunday is booked.

If I don't have the new Patty ready for the May 15 Riverside contest how do you think a 1/4 scale Pitts would do in Basic? I'll know more on Saturday but is it a waste of time to fly it in low level competition?

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

I would have to disagree with Doug C. I don't think basic is the place for guys to hang out in for years flying there 33-40%ers that are to lazy to get out and practice.But good enough to intimidated new comers with there sticks and non-IMAC planes just to grab a couple trophys. It is not like sportsman is much harder than basic, I think basic should be left to the beginners where without being intimidated by $$$$$$$$$$$$ and seasoned pilots. Mark,

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

cubdriver,

What you are saying is, basic is not a real class. It is just a way to get the entry fee from the non competitor and let them fly around. I personally agree 100% with what Doug wrote and so do a lot of our best pilots. Most of the top pilots in the US came up throught the ranks including basic, they just did it in pattern not IMAC. You have to crawl before you can walk.

There was a pattern thread talking about this subject within the last year.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Quest Just the opposite I think it is the most important class , I just don't like to see it abused by guys who who been around the flying game a long time and want to scare away new comers with $5000 planes that they have been flying for years. Mark,

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

From what I seen , there were a few times I grab my kid and run for the truck, thought we were going to get hit. What the difference in what kind of plane or how much someone payed for it.
Sounds like a few people I know that just can,t afford the plane so they complain someone else has one.
It about becoming the best you can, with what skills you have.
Somepeople are just better than others no matter how much you practice. Some just don,t like to be beat.
Are there people out there that buy $5000 aircraft stay in basic for years, give up there weekends, travel for hours, just to impress someone?

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Cabdriver,

You will have sandbaggers in any class but unlimited, thats just life. As contestents it is our job to harasse them until they move up :-)

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

at the last JR scat, i scribed for advanced and unlimited. im in basic. yes, we have 2 40% in basic, but i think i can beat them eventually with my 850$ H9 planes...hehe

anyway, i was very encouraged to see 2 H9 birds competing in not only advanced and unlimited, but another in intermediate as well. the scores were good, the pilots just needed to brush up on a few manouvers. i dont remember how they finished, but it is certainly encouraging for me as i dont have money yet to move up to even a 35%, let alone a 40%. but, as long as my planes have the power, i believe i can move up as my skills allow.. maybe... :D

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

What's the definition of a sandbagger?

Anyone that finishes ahead of you in your class......;)

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

YES :-)

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Hey Quest Being a contest director and a Unlimited Class IMAC flyer I found it easier to talk newby into flying there first match when there equipment was similar and not flying against muti-year competitors .

Hey Lucus Yes I have seen guys drive 400 miles round trip and sand bag in basic just to win a trophy. Being the CD I suggested they move up but was not going to force the issue they didn't.By the way I have plenty of planes

Quest I see you are from Glendale I used to have a winter house there Do you ever fly at the field on the other side of the 500 club golf course. Mark,

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

I live across the road from AMPS. but I fly at Sun Valley Fliers.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Hey guys....I was the scorekeeper at the second event referenced in this this post, and the fact that a complaint has made it to this forum with the context "ripped off" in it really does not set well with me.

I was approached by the individual who aired the complaint on Sunday of the event ; He is a member of the host club. I advised him to address it with the CD as well as the president of the club. I also advised him to bring it up at the next meeting and get it on the agenda to address by the board of directors (one of which I am !!), but I was told "I can't make it to any of the meetings".

The call was put out last year for more of our members to become CD's in order for contest interests to be more diverse and tailored to the CD's specific interest. A few have, but none who are active in IMAC competition. If you don't like how the contest was run, get involved with it and CHANGE it. Better yet, if you even have the slightest concern, clarify it with the CONTEST DIRECTOR or organizer PRIOR to flying in the contest. Don't just bi$%tch about it to the world afterwards and make the folks who ran the contest look incompetent.

This is the second year in the row I have BUSTED MY ***** for two FR#$%^KEN days for you people when:
1) I could be participating
2) I could have been doing something a whole lot funner than pounding a keyboard for 12 hours on Saturday and 6 hours on Sunday. I won't even mention the hours of prep it took.

Gee, lemme think...I didn't get to fly ANY sequences....this year OR last year....

[>:] Next year I'll be out riding dirt bikes when this contest comes around......one of you guys can keep score.


Bruce

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Hey Bruce
I don't believe I referenced the host club at all in my original post. I was trying to get feedback on the basic class in general. This happend at both events we were at. When I did bring my concerns to the officials you suggested I got brushed off and was told this is the way it is. That is when I decided to see if it was like this across IMAC. From the responses I guess it isn't. And by the way, before you were in this club I attended every meeting until my work schedule changed which is in direct conflict with the clubs meetings. Change the meeting dates and I'll be there again. A guy has to eat!

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

You worded it VERY poorly then in a VERY public forum. Stating that the basic class was "ripped off" in my opinion reflected on the way the contest was run, and quite frankly, I don't need the slap in the face.

The reason that I suggested you bring it up at a meeting is that we can, as a club, look at what we can change next year to make sure it doesn't happen again. It would carry more weight if there where IMAC participants at the meeting. Unfortunatly, out of our 200+ membership you guys are a minority......

If you want me to support you as a board member, I will do the best I can. Although I couldn't change it the DAY of the event, I never felt like it would be a hard thing to change for the future.

Personally, as far as going above and beyond for IMAC events, stick a fork in me, I'm done. This stuff is supposed to be for fun.

Bruce

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Bruce,
From the tone of your posts you are done. If it is that much of a hardship and your taking things this personally you should take a break. As someone who is getting ready for several IMAC contests this summer and planning to fly Basic I am alarmed at the thought of only flying once on a day of a contest. I would feel ripped off if that occured and posting it in public would be a reasonable response.

You are correct in telling people to get involved to change things they don't like and voicing your concerns is one way of getting involved. Saying that you should speak up in advance is not fair when I seriously doubt the participents knew they wouldn't get more than one flight on Sunday.

Take a break from officiating and fly or do something else but to let this thread bother you as much as it seems to be is a sign that you need to make a change.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

This discussion has changed a bit from its original intent, however, if you'll indulge me I'd like to make a few comments because I think some of the points that are being brought up are important.

I have been flying IMAC for several years now. When I started, in this part of the country (NE Region) if you had 15-20 flyers at a contest it was considered a great success. We now see some more contests and regular participation in the 30's- sometimes close to 50. This is great.

In order for any type of event to continue to be successful and grow, the "customer" has to be happy (in this case, that's the contestant). On the other hand, this is not a business and so the organizers and volunteers have to, at the very least, feel appreciated for their time and effort. Add to this the fact that these folks who give their own personal time and expense are the minority. The majority are those who come and benefit from their generosity- From my point of view, these volunteers are giving the contestants a gift - a weekend of organized competition- and expect little or nothing in return.

I certainly understand that contestants make investments of their own time and money to come to the contest but I sometimes wonder if contestants have an understanding of the sacrifies that organizers make on their behalf:
- giving up time they could be flying
- working with the club to negotiate use of the field
- rounding up volunteers, judges and scribes
- dealing with the pressures of the contest- keeping things moving, making everyone happy
- numerous planning sessions
- soliciting sponsors
- securing and managing all of the equipment- computers, software, sound system
- securing food and drinks
- entering scores
- phone calls with contestants to answer questions
- time spent promoting the contest

These are just the things I could think of off of the top of my head. I am sure I could double or triple this list if I wanted to.

My point? We all want to fly as many rounds as possible. Perhaps a contestant's expectations aren't met and that is reasonable. Having said that, please try to appreciate the time, sacrifice and effort that the volunteers put in over a series of months that makes it possible for us all to come and fly, be judged, spend time with friends and, for the vast majority of the time, have a good time.

Take time out to thank these folks and appreciate their efforts. Take this into consideration when evaluating your level of satisfaction with your experiences at a contest.

And yes, I am a CD and have been on both sides of this fence.

Dave Michael

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Dave,
Thank You. I'm switching to De-caf.

Bruce

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Dave hit the nail right on the head. We may soon come to requiring pre-registration in order to limit the number of contestants in some classes. I don't care to hear the BS about "we run a contest with 50 people in two days and fly 5 rounds". To me, if it is possible, it doesn't sound like a fun contest. One contest I was at last year put me #4 in the order for round 1. Round 2 put me #14. Imagine the wait I had between rounds, given there were 19 people in the class (sportsman). I took it in stride and watch a couple DVDs in the van in the AC [8D] .

I did not get to fly my 2nd round due to some rain (which didn't start until 4:30 pm). Imagine my disappointment. I chose to withdraw from the contest and not return the next day, and chose to spend it with my family. Was I ripped off? Depends on who you blame. I still paid the $25. Big whup. There simply was too many people in the contest, and when weather was thrown into the mix, some people at the end of the order got screwed. Another contest down here this year suffered incredible winds and low temps, added to extremely high turnout. They had to nix the freestyle altogether just to get all the classes a SECOND round on sunday. Was it the fault of the CD? Flightline coordinator? Not really. Did I come onto a public forum to announce my displeasure...no. Then again I've been doing this for five years now, have helped run four contests, and know how things can go south.

High turnout is something we all like to see; it stuffs our club coffers and puts a positive light on the sport. However, as they say, you CAN have too much of a good thing. Back when I was in Colorado, total turnout of 25-30 was perfect. We didn't make as much money as a contest with 50, but we had more fun, could fly 4 or 5 rounds, and still have freestyle. That and be done by 3 on Sunday.

Blaming the CD for how a line moves is like blaming Ford for the traffic jam on the interstate. Yes, they could build less Fords and have less traffic on the highway, but the DRIVERS are also responsible for keeping things moving. You all out there play a big part in having more rounds in a tight contest. Be at the line even if your #3 up. Have your score sheets if needed. Have your Caller at your side. Work out RADIO conflicts ahead of time. Start your engine on cue. An idling engine doesn't burn much fuel. Maybe even get airborne early (with line boss approval) and fly deep pattern out of the way until your turn. Blaming a CD or line coordinator for a slow contest only pisses them off for next year. Take a look at what your flying peers are doing to make things slow, too.

I had the pleasure of running the line at our last contest here. Most pilots did just as I expressed above. As a result, everyone was able to get 6 sequences in, plus unknowns for the upper classes, plus a freestyle with 9 pilots...with a turnout of 38 pilots. Awards meeting ajourned at 4:00 Sunday.

Geesh, long enough eh? I think I'm done with this issue, for now.

Erich Freymann
Bay City Flyers "Flightline Nazi"

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

Well Erich, you are going to here about it again. It is possible and it ain't no BS! I 've attended 2 contests so far this year, 50 pilots at the first one, 45 at the second. Both ran like clockwork, both were great fun for all that attended.
Maybe instead of hiding in your van watching DVD's you helped with contest, judging, scribing, helping out with the scoring, are but a few things I can think of that would help speed up the day. Getting airborne before the pilot in front of you has finished is a must.
With 5 classes these days you need to have 35-45 pilots to make it competitive. The CD ( I am one) sets the tone for the contest. If the CD sits back and just "lets it happen", which I have seen done, then it takes forever to get through the rounds, no fun for anyone, judges included. If I go to a contest I expect to fly twice both days unless the weather decides otherwise. 2 back to back rounds of "known" on the first day, "unknown" and one more round of back to back "known" on the second day. There is no reason in the world that this cannot be done with 45-50 pilots if the organization and the pilots themselves work to make it happen.

RE: Why Fly Basic?
 

People who are in this only for the trophy will never 'get it'. Personally I don't care if you fly a .40-sized or 40% airplane. If you can't handle the basic building blocks of the maneuvers then you shouldn't move up. It's a simple enough process to force advancement for the guy who's sitting in a lower class just to rack up the wood collection. To be honest I've never run into that person in the 10 years I've been flying IMAC.

Until you can CONSISTENTLY get 8's on every maneuver, you're not ready for the next class. This is most important in Basic and Sportsman, but I see it all the way up to Unlimited. I see guys in Unlimited who really struggle because they didn't spend enough time learning the building blocks for the class (in advanced).

I know it's hard, but don't let your ego force you into a class you're not ready for yet. Patience grasshopper :D