Lost a plane today
04-22-2012, 07:45 PM
#26
RE: Lost a plane today
If you are using Nimh batteries you should be aware of their limitations. I avoid them in receiver packs and prefer Nicad or Life packs.
Most people overlook a few important differences between Nicad Batteries and Nimh batteries. These differences are the cause of many problems of this sort, so the first thing to do is to consider how the batteries may have contributed to the crash.
1. Nimh batteries have a slightly lower voltage than Nicad batteries, this is a big reason many went to 5 cell packs when Nimh batteries first appeared on the scene.
2. Nimh batteries do not hold their voltage as well under load as equivalent capacity Nicad batteries, another reason to use 5 cells with Nimh batteries.
3. Nimh batteries do not respond well to quick charging, especially those often used as receiver packs. Nicads usually WILL tolerate quick charging.
4. Nimh batteries have a very short lifespan when compared to other types. Many barely last 2 seasons. Nicads last much longer, Lipo and Life should too.
Many modelers do not own a high output OVERNIGHT charger which is required when charging high capacity Nimh batteries. They often substitute the overnight charge for a quick charge at the field. Nimh batteries will often false peak when quick charging leading the modeler to believe that they are fully charged when in fact they are not. Most of the time you can get away with it but sooner or later .......?
You should also consider that 2.4 receivers are very sensitive to low voltage spikes which can lead to a reboot of the receiver which can take up to 5 seconds, plenty of time to crash a plane. I have read that some 2.4 receiver will brownout and reboot at about 3 1/2 volts. Doesn't take much of a drop to cause problems. Plus there is a huge difference in the current draw of various servos even between servos of equal power.
Add it all up and if you used a 4.8v Nimh battery pack it may have caused a problem if not properly charged, or there was a momentary high current draw caused by binding of a linkage or a stalled servo.
Others have provided excellent advice, when using Nimh batteries, use 5 cells, charge properly, test frequently and cycle often to prevent problems. If not you are likely to experience problems especially with 2.4ghz receivers.
Most people overlook a few important differences between Nicad Batteries and Nimh batteries. These differences are the cause of many problems of this sort, so the first thing to do is to consider how the batteries may have contributed to the crash.
1. Nimh batteries have a slightly lower voltage than Nicad batteries, this is a big reason many went to 5 cell packs when Nimh batteries first appeared on the scene.
2. Nimh batteries do not hold their voltage as well under load as equivalent capacity Nicad batteries, another reason to use 5 cells with Nimh batteries.
3. Nimh batteries do not respond well to quick charging, especially those often used as receiver packs. Nicads usually WILL tolerate quick charging.
4. Nimh batteries have a very short lifespan when compared to other types. Many barely last 2 seasons. Nicads last much longer, Lipo and Life should too.
Many modelers do not own a high output OVERNIGHT charger which is required when charging high capacity Nimh batteries. They often substitute the overnight charge for a quick charge at the field. Nimh batteries will often false peak when quick charging leading the modeler to believe that they are fully charged when in fact they are not. Most of the time you can get away with it but sooner or later .......?
You should also consider that 2.4 receivers are very sensitive to low voltage spikes which can lead to a reboot of the receiver which can take up to 5 seconds, plenty of time to crash a plane. I have read that some 2.4 receiver will brownout and reboot at about 3 1/2 volts. Doesn't take much of a drop to cause problems. Plus there is a huge difference in the current draw of various servos even between servos of equal power.
Add it all up and if you used a 4.8v Nimh battery pack it may have caused a problem if not properly charged, or there was a momentary high current draw caused by binding of a linkage or a stalled servo.
Others have provided excellent advice, when using Nimh batteries, use 5 cells, charge properly, test frequently and cycle often to prevent problems. If not you are likely to experience problems especially with 2.4ghz receivers.
04-22-2012, 08:05 PM
#28
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Lost a plane today
ORIGINAL: RC MANIAC119
OR................YOU COULD JUST BUY A FUTABA FASST SYSTEM AND ELIMINATE BROWN OUT COMPLETELY!!
Flame suit on...Bring it!!
OR................YOU COULD JUST BUY A FUTABA FASST SYSTEM AND ELIMINATE BROWN OUT COMPLETELY!!
Flame suit on...Bring it!!
Futaba is a fine RC radio manufacturer but certainly not more bulletproof than any other system.
04-22-2012, 09:57 PM
#29
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RE: Lost a plane today
049flyer: Nimh batteries have a very short lifespan when compared to other types. Many barely last 2 seasons.
Another big disadvantage of nimhs is that they fail open, which is thankfully rare. I had a AA nimh used in a camera that failed this way.
04-22-2012, 10:43 PM
#30
RE: Lost a plane today
Interesting about the 4.8v thing, ,my fault for never reading up on it. My own airplanes are all 6v, either nimh or LI-ion. I haven't felt the need to switch to the life batts. Nimh has been bulletproof for me over the years, and I do own a high output charger for them.
Thanks for all the advice.
Thanks for all the advice.
04-23-2012, 04:00 AM
#32
RE: Lost a plane today
I have had occasion to test hundreds of used batteries by cycling them. My minimum standard is that a good battery must cycle to within 80% of it's rated capacity. In almost every case Nimh batteries over about two years old FAIL while Nicad batteries nearly always PASS unles they are very old or have been severly abused.
I would bet that a 10 year old Nimh battery would fail for sure. Just because a 3000 Ma pack charges up enough for a flight doesn't mean it is good. What is it's current capacity? I doubt it would pass the 80% test. Might be OK as a electric motor battery but I would NEVER use a 10 Yr old battery of any chemistry to power my receiver.
I would bet that a 10 year old Nimh battery would fail for sure. Just because a 3000 Ma pack charges up enough for a flight doesn't mean it is good. What is it's current capacity? I doubt it would pass the 80% test. Might be OK as a electric motor battery but I would NEVER use a 10 Yr old battery of any chemistry to power my receiver.
04-23-2012, 04:21 AM
#33
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RE: Lost a plane today
Folks that I fly with will tell you that I'm more ancient than the ancint Mariner... My planes and systems reach back to the 60's. Now once I switched to 2.4mHz I still had many 4.8 Nicad packs floating around the shop. I've been using the ones that are less than 2 years old. I've never seen any Spektrum literature advising NOT to use 4.8v NiCad packs. Since most my new 2.4 planes have Telemetry I HAVE paid attention to the reported voltages. Even moving all the servo's at once or constantly moving the sticks around, I have never seen the voltage get close to 4.8 volts. I have seen it drop to 5 volts. But here's a report for all those that use older servo's.
This weekend, I was exercising the servo's in my EAA biplane. Aileron had an OLD futaba analog servo (standard size) and it was behaving curiously when centering. It would very slowly creep up in one direction. As I continued to whack it about left right left righ at one point it went FULL LEFT and Stayed there not returning to center. I quickly shut off power, I manually pushed the aileron towards neutral, recycled everything and tried to get it to repeat this lock up, but was unsuccessful.. None the less, I pulled that servo out of the plane. Now I am just guessing, but I believe that the Specktrum Dx8 may have sent the servo TOO far, and the wipers were unable to deliver voltage necessary to return to zero.
I sure wish someone would market an in-line voltage recorder. Even a low tech solution that consists of 5 led's (2 red< 4 and 4.5, 1 yellow=4.8, 2 Green= 5.0 and 5.2) and cost less than 20 bucks.
KKKKFL
This weekend, I was exercising the servo's in my EAA biplane. Aileron had an OLD futaba analog servo (standard size) and it was behaving curiously when centering. It would very slowly creep up in one direction. As I continued to whack it about left right left righ at one point it went FULL LEFT and Stayed there not returning to center. I quickly shut off power, I manually pushed the aileron towards neutral, recycled everything and tried to get it to repeat this lock up, but was unsuccessful.. None the less, I pulled that servo out of the plane. Now I am just guessing, but I believe that the Specktrum Dx8 may have sent the servo TOO far, and the wipers were unable to deliver voltage necessary to return to zero.
I sure wish someone would market an in-line voltage recorder. Even a low tech solution that consists of 5 led's (2 red< 4 and 4.5, 1 yellow=4.8, 2 Green= 5.0 and 5.2) and cost less than 20 bucks.
KKKKFL
04-23-2012, 05:09 AM
#34
RE: Lost a plane today
It depends on the age of the servo, Franco. Several companies including Futaba used to have different center position than 1.5ms we all use today. The JR/Spektrum DSM radios will never drive a servo beyond the range 0.8 - 2.2ms. The normal range is 1.1 - 1.9, so you have to crank up the Travel to be able to get far enough over to cause a problem.
Andy
Andy
04-23-2012, 05:40 AM
#35
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RE: Lost a plane today
I don't have the servo in front of me, but it was VERY old. It had the old red white and black individual wires, and I could see the solder joints where the old pin type connector had been replaced to a Deans. With today's prices on servo's this one will be retired to the Museum shelf of the shop.
KKKKFL
KKKKFL
04-23-2012, 05:55 AM
#36
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RE: Lost a plane today
life all the way!!! i run many channels in my jets. avoid voltage drop from false peaked sagging nicd and nihd packs. also make sure all your servos are operating properly. a bad POT is very hard to detect ( a servo test will NOT detect this )and most often not noticed. have any servos not been centering properly? has the plane gone just slightly out of trim in flight? if so, find it and replace it. a bad POT acts up when it wants to. when doing so, it sends signals back into the rx and causes all kinds of thing to happen.
04-23-2012, 07:58 AM
#37
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RE: Lost a plane today
ORIGINAL: BuschBarber
Making statements like this just makes you look foolish. You are kidding yourself if you think that any radio is immune to Brownouts. Every receiver has a Critical Voltage below which it will Reboot. Save the sarcasm and find something more useful to contribute.
Futaba is a fine RC radio manufacturer but certainly not more bulletproof than any other system.
ORIGINAL: RC MANIAC119
OR................YOU COULD JUST BUY A FUTABA FASST SYSTEM AND ELIMINATE BROWN OUT COMPLETELY!!
Flame suit on...Bring it!!
OR................YOU COULD JUST BUY A FUTABA FASST SYSTEM AND ELIMINATE BROWN OUT COMPLETELY!!
Flame suit on...Bring it!!
Futaba is a fine RC radio manufacturer but certainly not more bulletproof than any other system.
Some people just don't know sarcasm when they read it, and tend to take themselves WAAAAAY too serious.......lighten up dude!!
04-23-2012, 08:08 AM
#38
RE: Lost a plane today
What a load of BS! I have and do use 4.8 nicd's andnimh with my 2.4 system, never had a problem except when my rec. antenna was not oriented properly. If you could not use 4.8v, then the manufacturer would ship 6v with the system.
Did you do a range check after the first indication of a problem?
KaP2011
Ultra Sport Brotherhood #110
AMA #408493
Dalton RC Flyers
Did you do a range check after the first indication of a problem?
KaP2011
Ultra Sport Brotherhood #110
AMA #408493
Dalton RC Flyers
ORIGINAL: Bundubasher
For 2.4 gHz you cannot use 4.8 Volt receiver packs - it needs to be 6V packs. (nicad or even 6.6V for LiFE PO4 packs).
I use the 6.6 V packs very successfully - never had a problem on any of my 13 JR 2.4 gHz receivers using 6 or 6.6V.
If you don't want to go to 6 or 6.6 V, don't use the your present system - The voltage drop will getyou on 4.8V nicad pack.
Also, nicads and NMH packs are "last century technology". Many hobby shops are not even selling them anymore. The new standardis 6V , even 6.6V soon. All quality servos are designed to take 6 V or 6.6 V .
You get much better servo performance with 6 or 6.6V.
Word of caution - do not use el cheapo servos - mostly Chinese origin servos with 6 V - they may not handle it.
All high quality branded servo's comes with performance specs for 4.8 and 6.0 V.
Just a heads up.
Cheers
Bundu
ORIGINAL: Mpizpilot
Futaba 3003's and just a 4.8v nimh pack. Nothing crazy in this plane, no binding on linkages.
Futaba 3003's and just a 4.8v nimh pack. Nothing crazy in this plane, no binding on linkages.
For 2.4 gHz you cannot use 4.8 Volt receiver packs - it needs to be 6V packs. (nicad or even 6.6V for LiFE PO4 packs).
I use the 6.6 V packs very successfully - never had a problem on any of my 13 JR 2.4 gHz receivers using 6 or 6.6V.
If you don't want to go to 6 or 6.6 V, don't use the your present system - The voltage drop will getyou on 4.8V nicad pack.
Also, nicads and NMH packs are "last century technology". Many hobby shops are not even selling them anymore. The new standardis 6V , even 6.6V soon. All quality servos are designed to take 6 V or 6.6 V .
You get much better servo performance with 6 or 6.6V.
Word of caution - do not use el cheapo servos - mostly Chinese origin servos with 6 V - they may not handle it.
All high quality branded servo's comes with performance specs for 4.8 and 6.0 V.
Just a heads up.
Cheers
Bundu
04-23-2012, 08:18 AM
#39
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RE: Lost a plane today
ORIGINAL: RC MANIAC119
OR................YOU COULD JUST BUY A FUTABA FASST SYSTEM AND ELIMINATE BROWN OUT COMPLETELY!!
Flame suit on...Bring it!!
OR................YOU COULD JUST BUY A FUTABA FASST SYSTEM AND ELIMINATE BROWN OUT COMPLETELY!!
Flame suit on...Bring it!!
04-23-2012, 08:26 AM
#40
RE: Lost a plane today
Amazing. I have been using 4.8V on 72MHz for almost 20 years and haven't had a problem. I'm sure others could say the same for much moe than 20 years. The only 4.8V issues I have ever heard about is with the 2.4GHz units. Hmm, less range, higher receiver voltage, more noise - aren't technology "advancements" wonderful?
04-23-2012, 08:53 AM
#41
RE: Lost a plane today
ORIGINAL: 049flyer
If you are using Nimh batteries you should be aware of their limitations. I avoid them in receiver packs and prefer Nicad or Life packs.
Most people overlook a few important differences between Nicad Batteries and Nimh batteries. These differences are the cause of many problems of this sort, so the first thing to do is to consider how the batteries may have contributed to the crash.
1. Nimh batteries have a slightly lower voltage than Nicad batteries, this is a big reason many went to 5 cell packs when Nimh batteries first appeared on the scene.
2. Nimh batteries do not hold their voltage as well under load as equivalent capacity Nicad batteries, another reason to use 5 cells with Nimh batteries.
3. Nimh batteries do not respond well to quick charging, especially those often used as receiver packs. Nicads usually WILL tolerate quick charging.
4. Nimh batteries have a very short lifespan when compared to other types. Many barely last 2 seasons. Nicads last much longer, Lipo and Life should too.
Many modelers do not own a high output OVERNIGHT charger which is required when charging high capacity Nimh batteries. They often substitute the overnight charge for a quick charge at the field. Nimh batteries will often false peak when quick charging leading the modeler to believe that they are fully charged when in fact they are not. Most of the time you can get away with it but sooner or later .......?
You should also consider that 2.4 receivers are very sensitive to low voltage spikes which can lead to a reboot of the receiver which can take up to 5 seconds, plenty of time to crash a plane. I have read that some 2.4 receiver will brownout and reboot at about 3 1/2 volts. Doesn't take much of a drop to cause problems. Plus there is a huge difference in the current draw of various servos even between servos of equal power.
Add it all up and if you used a 4.8v Nimh battery pack it may have caused a problem if not properly charged, or there was a momentary high current draw caused by binding of a linkage or a stalled servo.
Others have provided excellent advice, when using Nimh batteries, use 5 cells, charge properly, test frequently and cycle often to prevent problems. If not you are likely to experience problems especially with 2.4ghz receivers.
If you are using Nimh batteries you should be aware of their limitations. I avoid them in receiver packs and prefer Nicad or Life packs.
Most people overlook a few important differences between Nicad Batteries and Nimh batteries. These differences are the cause of many problems of this sort, so the first thing to do is to consider how the batteries may have contributed to the crash.
1. Nimh batteries have a slightly lower voltage than Nicad batteries, this is a big reason many went to 5 cell packs when Nimh batteries first appeared on the scene.
2. Nimh batteries do not hold their voltage as well under load as equivalent capacity Nicad batteries, another reason to use 5 cells with Nimh batteries.
3. Nimh batteries do not respond well to quick charging, especially those often used as receiver packs. Nicads usually WILL tolerate quick charging.
4. Nimh batteries have a very short lifespan when compared to other types. Many barely last 2 seasons. Nicads last much longer, Lipo and Life should too.
Many modelers do not own a high output OVERNIGHT charger which is required when charging high capacity Nimh batteries. They often substitute the overnight charge for a quick charge at the field. Nimh batteries will often false peak when quick charging leading the modeler to believe that they are fully charged when in fact they are not. Most of the time you can get away with it but sooner or later .......?
You should also consider that 2.4 receivers are very sensitive to low voltage spikes which can lead to a reboot of the receiver which can take up to 5 seconds, plenty of time to crash a plane. I have read that some 2.4 receiver will brownout and reboot at about 3 1/2 volts. Doesn't take much of a drop to cause problems. Plus there is a huge difference in the current draw of various servos even between servos of equal power.
Add it all up and if you used a 4.8v Nimh battery pack it may have caused a problem if not properly charged, or there was a momentary high current draw caused by binding of a linkage or a stalled servo.
Others have provided excellent advice, when using Nimh batteries, use 5 cells, charge properly, test frequently and cycle often to prevent problems. If not you are likely to experience problems especially with 2.4ghz receivers.
I have one plane running NIMH with over 500 flights on NIMH, and others with hundreds, and the 500 flight plane has been put through the ringer. I have a 2300 NIMH battery that is probably 5 or 6 years old now and still works fine. If the batteries do fail after 500 flights and it becomes toast they have more than done what was expected of them. There are so man other variables that come into play as to how long a battery will last no matter what type it is.
When planes go down it is best to get the all the facts that you can and build a case from that. We have had many crashes at our fields and it is rare if ever that the radio is the problem. Most of the time bad connections, servos, and other things are the problem. I remember not long ago one fellow crashed and immediately he said it was his radio. Then while walking accross the field he realized he had left his antenna down! I think he sort of felt bad about it after that. Oh btw, he flies Futaba, Spektrum/JR and others and no one exhibits more problems than the others.
I was flying my small Revolver and kept having brown out issues and it always seem to occur at one end of the field. I searched and searched and could not find out what it was. Finally I was working on the plane one day and noticed that the aileron connector tape was stretching when the tempuratures where high outside and causing a temporary disconnect when vibrations occurred! I fixed the issue and NO more problems again. I could have easily blamed the radio, but the radio reacted as suspected with a problematic connection.
Happy flying!
04-23-2012, 09:12 AM
#43
RE: Lost a plane today
YIKES! That sucks! I've never had that happen, but then I have never parked my planes on the auto runway.
KaP2011
Ultra Sport Brotherhood #110
AMA #408493
Dalton RC Flyers
KaP2011
Ultra Sport Brotherhood #110
AMA #408493
Dalton RC Flyers
ORIGINAL: D_wilbur
Your lucky it was a trainer. I was flying sailplanes this week end and a pilot ran over another guys plane with his car. did not even notice what he did. we called him and told him about the bad news. he out about $700.00
Your lucky it was a trainer. I was flying sailplanes this week end and a pilot ran over another guys plane with his car. did not even notice what he did. we called him and told him about the bad news. he out about $700.00
04-23-2012, 09:18 AM
#44
RE: Lost a plane today
Just because a battery works does not mean it is good. Many people have replaced their 600 ma nicad battery with a 2000ma nimh and just because they can pull a few hundred ma out of it for a flight or two they assume the battery is good. The only way to determine the health of a battery is to cycle it.
If you don't cycle nicad or nimh batteries to determine their health you will have problems sooner or later.
If you don't cycle nicad or nimh batteries to determine their health you will have problems sooner or later.
04-23-2012, 09:27 AM
#45
RE: Lost a plane today
After the first issue, I changed the way the rx was mounted, bypassed the switch and range checked it. All seemed fine. I think it's kinda of ridiculous that if I were a beginner in this hobby with my first plane, I would have to be running life packs, checking current draws on servos, etc etc just to be able to safely fly a .40 size trainer.
I am seriously considering going back to 72mhz, this has got me so gun shy about my 9303 system I'm nervous about using it.
I am seriously considering going back to 72mhz, this has got me so gun shy about my 9303 system I'm nervous about using it.
04-23-2012, 09:48 AM
#46
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RE: Lost a plane today
I have not sat and read all of this but it is from the Spektrum website. I don't have the need to read it all because I don't use, nor plan to use, 4.8 volts for any of my rx requirements. The little bit of extra cost for a 6 + volt battery isn't worth it not to.
Does it say that when using a Spektrum rx you must use something more than 4.8? No, but if you read between the lines, it does say that you'd be better off if you did.
http://www.spektrumrc.com/Articles/A...ArticleID=1683
Your mileage may vary..............
Does it say that when using a Spektrum rx you must use something more than 4.8? No, but if you read between the lines, it does say that you'd be better off if you did.
http://www.spektrumrc.com/Articles/A...ArticleID=1683
Your mileage may vary..............
04-23-2012, 09:55 AM
#47
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RE: Lost a plane today
I feel for your pain especially after buying the 2.4 system.
I got in this hobby 4 yrs ago and we had Futaba 2.4 systems and used 4.8V packs nicad and nimh. After 1 year looked at Spektrum DX6 system and bought as it binds with Bind N Fly models. We had 4 cases where we lost the signal and luckily did not crash the plane. All aspects were checked, batteries good, etc. Just an issue with Spektrum. 2 other club members had same issue at different times with same radio systems.
I sold the Spektrum systems and have Futaba and Airtronics now. The Airtronics system is by far the best 2.4 value I have found. I still use mostly 4.8 packs and have never had an issue with Airtronics or Futaba.
This is my experience in this hobby. Not here to stir up trouble, but Spektrum has or had issues and did not make it known before selling and has not done a good job of admitting it and moving on.
Good luck
04-23-2012, 10:21 AM
#48
My Feedback: (11)
RE: Lost a plane today
I think that it was the OPs NiMH battery's health that caused the problem... He did not mention that it had been charged right before the flight or how old it was. He did mention loosing control and regaining on a prior flight... I think the battery used was old and dropped out.
With the receiver cutoff voltage being much closer to 4.8 volts (then 6v), I think it dropped/browned out. While the 4.8 volts may work, the battery has to be in good health with a proper charge. It is just safer to use the higher voltage so you don't have to worry about the issue.
With a new setup you should load the surface and measure the current under load. If the OP had done that, he might have seen a brownout on the ground.
If it is a plane that I care about (all of them qualify), I use two batteries and never look back. As to the Futaba/Spektrum/JR... they are all fine radios each with its proponents and detractors. Use what you have correctly and you will not have a problem.
6Volts is a known issue for at least the last five years. You had to be under a rock not to know about it.
With the receiver cutoff voltage being much closer to 4.8 volts (then 6v), I think it dropped/browned out. While the 4.8 volts may work, the battery has to be in good health with a proper charge. It is just safer to use the higher voltage so you don't have to worry about the issue.
With a new setup you should load the surface and measure the current under load. If the OP had done that, he might have seen a brownout on the ground.
If it is a plane that I care about (all of them qualify), I use two batteries and never look back. As to the Futaba/Spektrum/JR... they are all fine radios each with its proponents and detractors. Use what you have correctly and you will not have a problem.
6Volts is a known issue for at least the last five years. You had to be under a rock not to know about it.
04-23-2012, 10:27 AM
#49
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RE: Lost a plane today
Agree. At our field we use Futabas, from 1/2 A to giant scale. We mostly have NiCd and NimH batterys, standard 4 cells. Most of the fellow pilots have never heard of a brown out, you'd have to explain to them what it is.
Most Spectrum users never have problems with it, but there are quite a few and it becomes obvious that there is a problem with certain brands. And there has been some effort to take care of this, but it looks like the problem is still there.
Most Spectrum users never have problems with it, but there are quite a few and it becomes obvious that there is a problem with certain brands. And there has been some effort to take care of this, but it looks like the problem is still there.
04-23-2012, 11:07 AM
#50
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RE: Lost a plane today
ORIGINAL: OliverJacob
Agree. At our field we use Futabas, from 1/2 A to giant scale. We mostly have NiCd and NimH batterys, standard 4 cells. Most of the fellow pilots have never heard of a brown out, you'd have to explain to them what it is.
Most Spectrum users never have problems with it, but there are quite a few and it becomes obvious that there is a problem with certain brands. And there has been some effort to take care of this, but it looks like the problem is still there.
Agree. At our field we use Futabas, from 1/2 A to giant scale. We mostly have NiCd and NimH batterys, standard 4 cells. Most of the fellow pilots have never heard of a brown out, you'd have to explain to them what it is.
Most Spectrum users never have problems with it, but there are quite a few and it becomes obvious that there is a problem with certain brands. And there has been some effort to take care of this, but it looks like the problem is still there.