I'm in the process of working on this airplane right now. I'm going with a saito 100. Keep us updated with pics!!!!

I just got back from my LHS with replacement wood for 5 pieces that "failed" initial inspection.

I'm still considering how I want to approach the control surfaces. I'm really thinking that a Extra 330SC knockoff would be cool. Anybody have ideas as how to treat the leading edge of the aileron counter balance? Is it as flat as possible with hard corners on the tops and bottoms of that small bit of LE? Or is the LE rounded similar to the wing's LE? Or are the top and bottom corners just relieved a bit?

Hey LargeScale88 - did you get a satisfactory response to your wing "sheeting" question? Seemed to have gotten off topic a bit.

I indeed did. I ended up sheeting it, as its turning out very nicely. I would take pics, but I put the camera on a bad place on the bench, a minute later I was picking up camera pieces off the ground.

Your build and mods are looking very nice so far. I'd love to see this build all the way to flying!!!

Thanks

LS88 - I reread your sheeting thread. Keeping track of threads gets kinda fragmented when you're subscribed to a bunch of active threads.

You said that you were experimenting with 3/32". Do I understand correctly that you did use 3/32"? Did you replace the leading edge / main spar sheeting with 3/32" too? Or did you go with 1/16" for the "D-type" construction then just sheet everything from the main spar back in 3/32" balsa?

Did you have any issues getting the sheeting from the main spar back to lay down nicely on the ribs?

I see that you used Titebond. Did you lay everything up wet and then pin / weight the heck out of it? Or did you apply the glue to the ribs and spars, let the glue skin over and then position the sheeting and reactive the glue with an iron?

If you were to do the sheeting over again, would you do anything differently?

See, this is what happens when you break your camera - you gotta type more. [:@]

Btw - I'm fixing some control rod problems with another project that I'm trying to wrap up. Mumble, mumble - ya think ya get everything right and something rears its head ...

You sure it's your cam I can not even get back on my thread
Larry K
Why do I get in here and not in my own thread

Hey Larry - is the thread the "box of wood"

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10157237/anchors_10172725/mpage_2/key_/anchor/tm.htm#10172725] Larry's Thread [/link]

I've been having a heck of a time attaching pics (weird sizes) and posts timing out - never showing up.

I know what your problem is - you have WAYYYYY to much Ultracote under your bench

Hey I think this one is getting painted. I am have all kind of things happening here and I do not the ultracote, it's what the people want
Larry K

Hey I think this one is getting painted. I am have all kind of things happening here and I do not like the ultracote, it's what the people want
Larry K

<span style="font-size: medium">SeamusG: <span style="font-size: small">What i ended up doing was replacing all sheeting, (including LE,TE, and in the middle sheeting) with 3/32". I just thought if I was gonna sheet the whole wing, use 3/32", because the 1/16" sheeting would sag between ribs. I did use titebond 2, and I just put a thick bead of glue on the Sub LE, and laid some heavy magazines over the 3/32" sheeting over the front contour of the LE. Hard to explain, lets try this. I basically put the binding of the magazine on the main spar, and let the rest of the magazine droop over the LE, which would weigh down the sheeting. After the sheeting was dry, I just gluethe rest of the sheeting to the spars with thin CA. It worked pretty well I think, and turned out nice. Hopefully you understood, some things are just a bearcat to explain.

I think I could have been smarter where to put the camera. The edge of the table is not a a good place for somethin like that.

Are you gonna think about sheeting your wing?

Jason</span></span>

<span style="font-size: small">Another part of your question I didn't answer. The sheeting fit very well over the ribs from the Main spar and back. I put the TE sheeting on first, as the excess from that is the aileron sheeting, then I did the LE, then worked from there. I think it came out very nice, just some cutting, sanding, and filling, you got yourself a nice sheeted wing. I'm still considering a servo hatch to get rid of the ugly servo sitting outside the wing, and may reduce drag?

Jason</span>

Thk LS. Yea, I like the idea for a couple of reasons. One, I just want to build a fully sheeted wing. Two, it gives me the option to paint rather than cover with Ultracote. Weight is not an issue. I think that a YS 1.10 can handle the addition heft. [img]../../punymce/plugins/emoticons/img/trans.gif[/img]

Hey Larry - you're breaking up ... You forget to feed the Internet squirrels? I've had a B of a time this week posting anything up 'til today. RCU's been moved to new / different servers (I think).

Sidebar: Attaching 4-40 rod to CF tubing

I just picked up some CF tubes from my LHS. The CF inside diameter is snug fit for 1/8" brass tubing outside diameter. 4-40 rod has a similar fit on the inside of the brass tubing. So, just playing around, I glued the 4-40 rod to the inside of the brass tubing with black CA. Then I glued the brass tubing inside the CF tube with black CA. I'll let ya know how THAT works out (or NOT).

Anybody have other suggestions on connecting CF tubes &amp; threaded wire?

On servo hatches:

[link=http://www.airfieldmodels.com/information_source/how_to_articles_for_model_builders/construction/wing_construction/08.htm] Airfield Models Hatch Article [/link]

Iassume that there's plenty of room for the servo to stand proud between the main spars?

I built one of these several years ago and is one of my favorite planes. I am using an OS 91 and goes straight up. The wing sheeting is very thin if I remember. It is very easy to puncture or crack the wood until it is covered. I got a cowl and wheel pants from Stan and they were excellent pieces, but not sure if he is still around. Let me know if he is.

I think I used the stock hardware which was 2-56. Never had a problem, but if I were building again today, I would do several things differently. Use a Sullivan tail wheel bracket. And I would use plastic bolts to hold the landing gear on. Otherwise you will be eventually doing a repair....

I might sheet the belly pan next time, but the Monokote has never torn there....just stays sort of flimsy. All the extra stuff adds to the weight. Keep it light and it will be a great flyer

bob

I've been working on CFtubes and adapting 4-40 rods to them. This is primarily for another project but I think that it will be useful for this build.

pic 1 - finished (test piece) connection. I put the exposed 4-40 rod into a vice and then pulled with both hands on the CF tube. The vice clamp couldn't hold the force. Thinkin' that the strength is good to go
pic 2 - IC-2000 CA glue from Bob Smith Industries.

The CF tube has a 1/8"ID. The brass tube has a 1/8" OD. The IDof the brass tube and the OD of the 4-40 rod have the same tension as the brass has with the CF. Isqueezed some CA into the CFtube. Twizzled the brass tube in and out making sure all was coated. More CA was squeezed into the brass tube and the 4-40 rod was twizzled inside the brass tube. All was inserted into the CF. Dried overnite.

The CFtube can stand on its own without support a good 30". The project that I'm working on requires 28" from control horn hole to the screw on the servo. The elevator will be a DEPSand the rudder will be a single pushrod. The 4-40 will allow some bends outside of the fuse to align the clevis (4-40 Hayes) with the horn. The servo-side will be a very short 2-56 swivel. This is the same plan that Ihave for the Extra 300S.

Next test will be testing the aileron counter balance design with wing trailing edge. If the counter balance design works I will use it on the 300Swing / aileron.

Em, wonder if our Admins know that when ya make a post the browser positions the thread at the top of the page - not at the location of the new post. Wonder if the new software / hardware server configuration was tested before cutover. Enquiring minds are dangerous things ...

SeamusG: Thanks for the article on hatches, I think thats a good way to do it. I was thinking just to do an experiment, for some comparison. I was thinking of buying another GPextra 300s kit, the one your building, build it completely from the instruction bok, no mods, no sheeting, and just compare the weigh between the airplane with the sheeted wing, and the non sheeted. I will buy another saito 100, same servos, everything the same, and see how it all looks.

I could maybe do my own build thread on this thread also? Not to take it over from you, but we could compare building notes, and weigh savings ideas, ect. Otherwise, I can start another thread, and go from there.

Jason

JB weld is very good to glue the metal rods into the carbon fiber tubes

Any progress on the Extra?</p>

Yea - doing research. Figuring out the specifics of an Extra 330SC wing / rudder / elevator configuration. When I get the plans squared away I'll post the new plans.

There will be no gluing before its time ...

Good Idea. I'm in a bit of a hurry to build the rest of my extra 300soi can start of my winter project. I've been doing lots of research on the P-51 mustang, but I'll still be following this thread every day.

Any progress?</p>

One thing I would highly suggest, since the horizontal/vertical stabs are basically flat... is adding flying wires. Even if they're sheeted flat... with that kind of power the YS delivers.. and those being flat stabs... it leaves them wide open for flutter. I lost my first GP Extra300 .40size due to flutter of the rear stab section.. it was partly or mostly my fault for putting a .91 4-stroke.. but that is a weak area..and with that kind of engine.. it will simply fold those stabs straight back.. I'm not saying in every case... as I'm sure theres been much success without them....but it was definately a weak point on the .40 size.

I built a second Extra immediately(this was 9yrs ago, and the second one is always better ya know), and layed down c/f in my suspect areas on/at the hor.stab , and installed small sites for the flying wire attachments, and ran it all the way around. Sullivan products makes a really nice little "flying wire" kit that retro's right on most any aircraft. The plane wouldn't need it if it were a "foiled tail, as the foil creates triangulation.. but with just flat stabs.. it needs that triangulation to be stable.. That plane is still with me, and its still one of the nicest I've got.... matter of fact I've got some building info somewhere in the archives(I hope they still exist).. I won't even try to search it now.. as Ive read a few minutes ago.. the forum search is also down.

I think you'll find GreatPlanes Extra's are very worthy airplanes... and will do any manuever asked of it. I also found out over time.. the .60 size is nearly the same size as the .40.. theres not much difference in them.. a flying friend had his .60 size at the field one day, and even sitting side by side, from about 30ft. away you really can't tell they're different.. it was kind of weired..

Have fun, enjoy the build.. I'll look forward to seeing it done.

PS...my avatar is the GP's Extra.

Happiness is an Extra 300S ...

Flutter - something that I probably wouldn't recognize if it hit up side the head with a 2x4.

My only experience in building that I can bare on is the SIG Somethin' Extra. It uses 4 2x56 rods with hardwood dowels as "hard points" in the centers of the fin &amp; both horizontal stabs. Is that the general approach that you're referring to? Thinking that a set of 2-56 sized CFrods might work well.

My build has been side tracked a bit to retro-fit and upgrade the original 2-56 based CFrods to 4-40 based CFrods for the rudder and elevator controls on a recently completed project. Required way more effort than Iplanned. Required relocating all of the fuse-based servos, removal-replacement of the fuse bottom behind the wing and some serious surgery to the fuse sides to allow unrestricted movement of the big CFrods. The bigger rods also required adjusting servo/control rod alignments and longer servo horns - 4-40 clevis' are a bunch "fatter" than the 2-56 versions resulting in interference.

As far as the Extra goes I cut some new ribs (8, 9 &amp;10)plus a new 9.5. Ipulled a bunch of wood from the stuff boxes. The goal is to build a prototype of the wing tip and aileron tip so that Ican come up with a counter balance for the ailerons. I'm using Mike Goulian's website for details on the Extra 330C. If the prototype works out I'll adapt the aileron counter balances - just to be different &amp; because I can.

Construction question - when you create counter balances where there were no counter balances what structure do YOU use? Do you simply add on an appropriate sized chunk of balsa and sand to shape? Do you fab up a structure similar to the structure of the control surface being extended?

I only have one example of counters - my ShowTime 50 ARF from Hanger 9. The elevator counter balance structure is a sheeted wing structure. The leading edge of the elevator is extended to become the main spar of the counter balance. It has a tip rib that extends from the elevator's straight trailing edge to a new leading edge that conforms to the extended line of the stab's leading edge. There is a second rib that serves as the inside (or root) of the counter balance and extends from the counter's leading edge to the elevator's trailing edge. The area between the counter's main spar and leading edge is sheeted with 1/16" balsa - definitely a standard sheeted wing structure (no D-type structure here).

Your suggestions?

I'll address the flying wires at this point, which again I'm only suggesting(highly really), but they are definately an added insurance and do enhance the structural integrity greatly... What I'm referring to is exactly what is on the Somethin'Extra. That particular plane uses a solid wire, which is fine to use, and probably stronger then a steel cable, and might be a tad easier to install since there's virtually no rigging, and I believe its soldered and threaded... and that would depend on you fabricate it... which is what you'll have to do in most any instance. The SullivanProducts flying wire kit however does come with all the hardware needed(IE clevis's, crimps, etc..)as well as both steel, and kevlar wiring.. I've always used the steel on glow planes, to me that just made sense.. but you might do a bit of research and see which you'd like to use.. the hard-points will take a little planning, as this Extra does have "ribbed" stabs so to speak.. and you'll want those hard-mounting points in such a place surrounded by as much wood as you can..maybe even scabbing a small slab in.. and you can drill and dowel if you like too.. as I said in my post.. I used c/f in strategic places... and one of those places was the hard points for mounting the wires. The Sullivan kit does run about $22.... which in the experience I have is very cheap, as without them it literally cost me a plane..and it comes with a decent diagram and instructs to install..but in a nutshell the SomethinExtra is the concept with wires running top and bottom. I do know for a fact the wires will greatly reduce flex on those stabs...

In my memory the GP's Extra's dont have a counter balance, so I'm guessing you're wanting to fabricate some... which is actually very doable.. the set-up is a bit more complex when dealing with a split elevator, as there's more points to align other then just a straight edge and an inboard/outboard tip... but you probably want to study the current structure and apply that same structure to any modifications you're contemplating... some of it can be as easy as a couple of blocks to the outboard areas of the elevator, followed by a simple notch-out on the hor.stab to accomodate the area your blocks will reside. You might have to frame the notch-out, in which case again, I would use same same on the material used in the rest of the stab... meaning if they use 1/8"x1/4" spar/rib material.. use that to fashion your notch frame... then sheet it accordingly.

I just looked at the manual as I didn't want mislead you anywhere.. but my memory is still working pretty good(the manual is available online, isn't modern technology great!), and the stab on the .60 is actually quite a stout looking structure.. the .40 is nowhere near what the .60 is in the amount of solid wood used.. I like it... I would still do the wires, or contemplate the counter-balances.. as the counter-balances themselves aid in stabilizing a flying surface. I wish they would go to a "foiled" stab.. that would eliminate all doubt... as the foil itself lends to triangulation needed.

These are a few things you can ponder, as you being the builder, the only limit is your imagination... just enjoy it, never loose patience, and do the best you can.. I think you'll do just fine.. it is a great kit, as every GreatPlanes kit I've built was a very worthy project. I've still got my Extra, and I've got a Decathlon, as well as the 33%Extra330(I just picked that up last summer, its still in the box to be built near future). They all fly great too. The Extra's are very sporty in the smaller sizes, but are very manageable if you've got a bit of low-wing experience... the tapered-chord wing makes it a tad more on the "hot" side then say a constant-chord wing of the same size/area... so... with that.. I'll let you go for now. I hope this helps a bit.

SeamusG,
I started this kit a few weeks ago. I'm at the point of starting on the fuse. I only use Titebond so I build a little slow. I did the tail mods a little different than others. Will be installing a DLE 20, so the rud/ele servos will be mounted in the rear side of the fuse. The elevators will be tied together with wire, so only need one servo. Just finished up the wing. One area I did not care for was the beveled hinge blocks that fit between the two TE pieces on the wing, but it's done. I also installed the hinge blocks before I installed the top TE sheeting. Figured it would be easier to get to it that way. Have subscribed to your thread, keep up the good work.