Hinge question
01-14-2012 | 01:04 PM
#1
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From: greenbrier, TN
Hinge question
I'm sure this has been hashed over many times, but I can't find the answers I seek by the "search" function.
I normally build smaller airplanes, parkfliers and such, with .40 size sport planes being my upper limit. Finishing an UltraSport 40
with a strong Enya 45 2 stroke, I am wondering if my old standby EZ Hinge (CA hinges) will stand up to the speeds this aircraft will achieve? I have heard of them breaking in flight on larger or faster airplanes, although I have never personally seen this. For you guys who fly the big, fast ones, what has been your experience? What is your favorite hinge? Are EZ type hinges only for smaller aircraft? Educate me.
Thanks a lot for your answers
Ed
I normally build smaller airplanes, parkfliers and such, with .40 size sport planes being my upper limit. Finishing an UltraSport 40
with a strong Enya 45 2 stroke, I am wondering if my old standby EZ Hinge (CA hinges) will stand up to the speeds this aircraft will achieve? I have heard of them breaking in flight on larger or faster airplanes, although I have never personally seen this. For you guys who fly the big, fast ones, what has been your experience? What is your favorite hinge? Are EZ type hinges only for smaller aircraft? Educate me.
Thanks a lot for your answers
Ed
01-14-2012 | 01:30 PM
#3
RE: Hinge question
I have a TF P47 with a 108 engine & the hinges are fine after 13 years. I crashed it once &
one of the things I remember was the balsa trailing edges broken to pieces but the hinges
stretched but not broken.
I also have a 15 year old, 110 inch B-36 with CA hinges also fine.
Make sure you pin them as well, I use dressmakers pins from the bottom of the wing & tail.
Also buy good quality hinges from a reputable company like Dubro or Great Planes.
What did Forest Gump say? Cheap chinese accessories are like a box of chocolates.............
John.
one of the things I remember was the balsa trailing edges broken to pieces but the hinges
stretched but not broken.
I also have a 15 year old, 110 inch B-36 with CA hinges also fine.
Make sure you pin them as well, I use dressmakers pins from the bottom of the wing & tail.
Also buy good quality hinges from a reputable company like Dubro or Great Planes.
What did Forest Gump say? Cheap chinese accessories are like a box of chocolates.............
John.
01-14-2012 | 01:36 PM
#4
My Feedback: (108)
RE: Hinge question
They do have thier use, but for high speed and aerobatics, nothing better than the nylon hinges. I quit using the CA hinges after having a couple fail on a pre flight inspection. This is just my thoughts, but they appear to degrade themselves on the hinge line if you have throws that are outside the norm. The 2 that I found were actually starting to tear on the hinge line. I also think that as they get older, they will allow some flutter on the control surfaces. I am sure that there are those that have never had any issue's with them but as I said, just my observations and I now use only nylon hinges. Good Luck, Dave
01-14-2012 | 03:07 PM
#5
My Feedback: (-1)
RE: Hinge question
I prefer the flat nylon and hinge pins but when done correctly CA hinges are just fine and hold very well. If not done correctly they will pull loose, just like any type of hinge. Usually the breaking of a CA hinge is caused by trying to re-glue the hinges and the CA gets into the bending surface/area and becomes brittle. CA hinges have been used for too many years to remember without problems. Nylon and Pins are just my first choice, I just like them better, not because of a problem with the CAs.
01-15-2012 | 12:08 AM
#7
Banned
RE: Hinge question
Iwonder why we do not have proportionally sized CA hinges on our doors at home or on our cars and trucks.
Why not on full size airliners or full size aerobatic planes.
. . 
. . Zor
01-15-2012 | 04:07 AM
#8
RE: Hinge question
I've used CA hinges on 90 inch models, with no problems.
To me, it's a matter of personal preference, as to what hinge to use.
In case somebody missed it, we are not talking about homes, cars, or trucks. We are talking about our models.
To me, it's a matter of personal preference, as to what hinge to use.
In case somebody missed it, we are not talking about homes, cars, or trucks. We are talking about our models.
01-15-2012 | 10:13 AM
#10
Banned
RE: Hinge question
ORIGINAL: TomCrump
I've used CA hinges on 90 inch models, with no problems.
To me, it's a matter of personal preference, as to what hinge to use.
In case somebody missed it, we are not talking about homes, cars, or trucks. We are talking about our models.
I've used CA hinges on 90 inch models, with no problems.
To me, it's a matter of personal preference, as to what hinge to use.
In case somebody missed it, we are not talking about homes, cars, or trucks. We are talking about our models.
we are not talking about homes, cars, or trucks. We are talking about our models.
I was making a comparison to make people think about their reasons making their choice.
Many use CA hinges just because they find them in the kit or because they have used them before without knowing why.
I wish to read the advantages of using CA hinges over pinned hinges.
We still have to cut slots identical to slots for pinned hinges.
Why should we spend battery power to bend plastic?
Why should we have gaps to our control surfaces so there is some lenght for the CA hinge to bend when we can have no gap and no oppositon to rotation ?
CA hinges are descendents of the old times when we were using sewing threads or ribbons before the advent of the plastic industries. Threads and ribbons even had less opposition than a thickness of plastic.
Let us come to modern technology
. Zor
01-15-2012 | 11:14 AM
#11
My Feedback: (-1)
RE: Hinge question
For those of you who know me you may recall I was a dental Lab Tech for a while. One piece of equipment I kept was my dental hand piece. The photo shows the tool and an assortment of the Burrs I use on a regular basis. It's a tool that comes in very handy in modeling but nothing you can't do with just a drill and bits not to mention a Dremel Tool. It's the Burrs or Bits that do the work.
I glanced over Minns thread and didn't notice this one step I do for installing CA hinges. I may have missed it or he may be doing it with the pin through the center? As a said, I just skimmed the thread and didn't read it.
I like to cut my slots with a GP slot cutting tool, I have several other types of slot cutters but the GP cutter works very well with a lot less work. It gives me a Nice tight slot. Then I use a Burr of about 3/32 and drill a hole in the center. This is where I flow in the CA so it will completely glue the hinge to the wood all the way through the edge.
When done correctly the CA hinge works great. I will still use CA hinges if someone wants me to on there plane. I have never had one fail, they just aren't my first choice. I have seen them fail but it was because of simple little problems. Usually a loose slot and too much glue or glue used after the hinge was installed making them brittle.
Yes, this is old school and we have other choices but because something is an old idea doesn't mean it doesn't work. I still like my Zinoah gas engines with the Mag instead of the electronic ignition. More trouble free but I still have engines with electronic ignitions too and like them.
If done correctly there is nothing wrong at all with the CA hinges. If done incorrectly they can be a problem. It's just another of those choice things we are confronted with all the time.
I glanced over Minns thread and didn't notice this one step I do for installing CA hinges. I may have missed it or he may be doing it with the pin through the center? As a said, I just skimmed the thread and didn't read it.
I like to cut my slots with a GP slot cutting tool, I have several other types of slot cutters but the GP cutter works very well with a lot less work. It gives me a Nice tight slot. Then I use a Burr of about 3/32 and drill a hole in the center. This is where I flow in the CA so it will completely glue the hinge to the wood all the way through the edge.
When done correctly the CA hinge works great. I will still use CA hinges if someone wants me to on there plane. I have never had one fail, they just aren't my first choice. I have seen them fail but it was because of simple little problems. Usually a loose slot and too much glue or glue used after the hinge was installed making them brittle.
Yes, this is old school and we have other choices but because something is an old idea doesn't mean it doesn't work. I still like my Zinoah gas engines with the Mag instead of the electronic ignition. More trouble free but I still have engines with electronic ignitions too and like them.
If done correctly there is nothing wrong at all with the CA hinges. If done incorrectly they can be a problem. It's just another of those choice things we are confronted with all the time.
01-15-2012 | 02:46 PM
#12
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: Hinge question
ORIGINAL: Zor
I wish to read the advantages of using CA hinges over pinned hinges.
I wish to read the advantages of using CA hinges over pinned hinges.
You don't have to cut the same slot, you have a much easier slot to cut because they are not so thick. Also the gap is small enough to be negligable, yet for flat, nylon hinges you have to cut room in the TE of the Stab and LE of the Elevator to make room for the knuckle - otherwise you get a HUGE gap.
Next is the fact that you need to use epoxy or some other slow-setting glue which must be applied, hinge inserted, glue applied to the other side, control surface added and then all that messy excess glue has to be removed.
So basically, once you have test-fit pinned hinges, you have several more messy and laborious steps. With CA hinges, after the test-fit, add a few drops of CA and continue on to the next step. No waiting necessary.
01-15-2012 | 05:35 PM
#13
Banned
RE: Hinge question
<span style="color: #ff0000">Red inserts by Zor
</span>
I wish to thank you for your response. I see your outlook and I hope you see mine.
It is for all builders to use the method they are more comfortable with and find a way to avoid any messes.
Another viewpoint I differ is that you seem to be more concerned with the work of installing the hinges.
That is all i read . . . comments pertaining to the installation.
I am more concerned with the results after the installation.
I cannot see that CA hinges being 0.017 inch thick can give me a gap between the control surfaces and their support in the order of 0.003 to 0.005 inch gap. I would not consider a 0.020 inch gap as negligeable. If a surface is to rotate up to 45 or 60 degrees then the gap created by the bending CA hinge has to be greater than that.
With the pinned hinges a few strokes of sanding with two made tools (80 grit and 240 grit) quickly recess the wood for the center of rotation axis to be dead on the 0.003" (or so) gap or as some have posted use a Dremel with a small grinding disk (cylinder) to recess the wood.
Have a great day,
Zor
</span>
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Ok, They are easier.
<span style="color: #ff0000">I think you mean easier to install.
For me the pinned hinges are easier to install because I have the Dubro tool to cut accurate slots. </span>
You don't have to cut the same slot, you have a much easier slot to cut because they are not so thick.
<span style="color: #ff0000">The Dubro tool cuts the slot just the proper size for the thickness of the hinges.
The 0.610 inch wide hinges are 0.032 to 0.035 thick.
The 0.428 inch wide are 0.025 thick.
For a $10.00 tool, who would want to cut 44 slots with a #11 Xacto knife on a biplane.
24 slots for 4 ailerons.
8 slots for rudder
12 slots for elevators.
Of course the tool is there for future models.</span>
Also the gap is small enough to be negligable, yet for flat, nylon hinges you have to cut room in the TE of the Stab and LE of the Elevator to make room for the knuckle - otherwise you get a HUGE gap.
<span style="color: #ff0000">The CA hinges that I have are 0.017-0.018 inch thick.
</span><span style="color: #ff0000">I would not want that thickness to force apart the grain of the wood.
How to cut 44 slotsto bejust about that thick? I do not know of any tools to do that.</span>
<span style="color: #ff0000">If you did mean "easier to install" then it appears labor intensive and time consuming.
A slot using the Dubro tool can be cut in about one minute or less.
</span>
Next is the fact that you need to use epoxy or some other slow-setting glue which must be applied, hinge inserted, glue applied to the other side, control surface added and then all that messy excess glue has to be removed.
<span style="color: #ff0000">That is not the way I do it. I have previously described in this forum how I do it. I will not repeat here now what I already posted. The epoxy is applied only once on both faces of the slots and the hinges and I have no mess and no epoxy coming out to the hinges themselves. There is always a solution to any problem like you are mentioning. </span>
So basically, once you have test-fit pinned hinges, you have several more messy and laborious steps.
<span style="color: #ff0000">I wonder what messy and laborious steps you are experiencing. After final insertion of the pinned hinges, there is no mess to clean up. Just let the epoxy harden up in less than an hour using 30 min epoxy. </span>
With CA hinges, after the test-fit, add a few drops of CA and continue on to the next step. No waiting necessary.
<span style="color: #ff0000">Ya ___the next step is to relax with a nice cup of coffee or your favorite beverage __ . </span>
ORIGINAL: Zor
I wish to read the advantages of using CA hinges over pinned hinges.
I wish to read the advantages of using CA hinges over pinned hinges.
<span style="color: #ff0000">I think you mean easier to install.
For me the pinned hinges are easier to install because I have the Dubro tool to cut accurate slots. </span>
You don't have to cut the same slot, you have a much easier slot to cut because they are not so thick.
<span style="color: #ff0000">The Dubro tool cuts the slot just the proper size for the thickness of the hinges.
The 0.610 inch wide hinges are 0.032 to 0.035 thick.
The 0.428 inch wide are 0.025 thick.
For a $10.00 tool, who would want to cut 44 slots with a #11 Xacto knife on a biplane.
24 slots for 4 ailerons.
8 slots for rudder
12 slots for elevators.
Of course the tool is there for future models.</span>
Also the gap is small enough to be negligable, yet for flat, nylon hinges you have to cut room in the TE of the Stab and LE of the Elevator to make room for the knuckle - otherwise you get a HUGE gap.
<span style="color: #ff0000">The CA hinges that I have are 0.017-0.018 inch thick.
</span><span style="color: #ff0000">I would not want that thickness to force apart the grain of the wood.
How to cut 44 slotsto bejust about that thick? I do not know of any tools to do that.</span>
<span style="color: #ff0000">If you did mean "easier to install" then it appears labor intensive and time consuming.
A slot using the Dubro tool can be cut in about one minute or less.
</span>
Next is the fact that you need to use epoxy or some other slow-setting glue which must be applied, hinge inserted, glue applied to the other side, control surface added and then all that messy excess glue has to be removed.
<span style="color: #ff0000">That is not the way I do it. I have previously described in this forum how I do it. I will not repeat here now what I already posted. The epoxy is applied only once on both faces of the slots and the hinges and I have no mess and no epoxy coming out to the hinges themselves. There is always a solution to any problem like you are mentioning. </span>
So basically, once you have test-fit pinned hinges, you have several more messy and laborious steps.
<span style="color: #ff0000">I wonder what messy and laborious steps you are experiencing. After final insertion of the pinned hinges, there is no mess to clean up. Just let the epoxy harden up in less than an hour using 30 min epoxy. </span>
With CA hinges, after the test-fit, add a few drops of CA and continue on to the next step. No waiting necessary.
<span style="color: #ff0000">Ya ___the next step is to relax with a nice cup of coffee or your favorite beverage _
_ . </span>It is for all builders to use the method they are more comfortable with and find a way to avoid any messes.
Another viewpoint I differ is that you seem to be more concerned with the work of installing the hinges.
That is all i read . . . comments pertaining to the installation.
I am more concerned with the results after the installation.
I cannot see that CA hinges being 0.017 inch thick can give me a gap between the control surfaces and their support in the order of 0.003 to 0.005 inch gap. I would not consider a 0.020 inch gap as negligeable. If a surface is to rotate up to 45 or 60 degrees then the gap created by the bending CA hinge has to be greater than that.
With the pinned hinges a few strokes of sanding with two made tools (80 grit and 240 grit) quickly recess the wood for the center of rotation axis to be dead on the 0.003" (or so) gap or as some have posted use a Dremel with a small grinding disk (cylinder) to recess the wood.
Have a great day,
Zor
01-15-2012 | 06:05 PM
#14
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: Hinge question
You did not address the issue of removing material to allow for the pivot. And yes, I did mean easier to install.
I have been putting in hinges since the early 60's. It was always one of my least favorite things to do. The first time I used CA hinges, I never looked back. (and I've never had one fail)
I have been putting in hinges since the early 60's. It was always one of my least favorite things to do. The first time I used CA hinges, I never looked back. (and I've never had one fail)
01-15-2012 | 06:09 PM
#15
Banned
RE: Hinge question
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
You did not address the issue of removing material to allow for the pivot. And yes, I did mean easier to install.
I have been putting in hinges since the early 60's. It was always one of my least favorite things to do. The first time I used CA hinges, I never looked back. (and I've never had one fail)
You did not address the issue of removing material to allow for the pivot. And yes, I did mean easier to install.
I have been putting in hinges since the early 60's. It was always one of my least favorite things to do. The first time I used CA hinges, I never looked back. (and I've never had one fail)
Regards,
Zor
