curtrc

I have built 4 models from kits now(and a few arfs)so I thought I'd take a whack at a plan-build. Friend of mine built the S2B Pitts (1/4 scale) from AirAge and had nothing but good to say about it so I figured that would be a good place to start. At the very least I'd have someone I could pose questions to.

Got them in today and was very excited.. until.. I noticed something just wasn't quite right. Seemed too small. Whipped out my trusty yardstick and checked the scale and sure enough, 6" on plan was only 5 3/4". Measured the wingspan and the advertised 61" is.. 58 3/4"

Are plans supposed to be "not to scale" like this?Its been a few years since I put a kit together but I seem to recall building right on the plans as they were 1:1 (last plane I built was a super-sportster)

Here is a pic: http://northarc.com/~curt/scale.jpg

-Curt

aerowoof

should be 1-1 but paper is affected by humidity,it can strech or shrink that much from loss of moisture.way back there were notices in kits about the plans shrinking/expanding but the wood parts were cut to the correct size

G8er

it could be normal shrinkage, but kinda odd how the first inch is almost spot on, then it increases exponentially to about a 1/4" off, did you try double checking other parts of the plan like top mid bottom, left right? maybe it is just that half/part of the paper that is off???

curtrc

Yes Ichecked several parts, the 1/4" balsa is barely over 3/16ths in several parts of the plans, as I said the wingspan is advertised at 61"and its barely 58 3/4ths (hard to measure exactly, but even +/- 1/8th thats nowhere near)

Some dimentions seem to be correct, or close enough to just be line-thickness, overall the plan is just not 1:1

The scale does not get exponentially worse, it gets additively worse, each inch is actually just over 15/16ths so 15/16+15/16 +15/16 etc.. = 15/16 *6 = or a little over 5.625"

The paper shrinking? by 7%?cmon Idon't buy that. I think these plans were mis-printed and I've politely asked for a reprint with corrected dimentions.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

As a retired printer I can tell you shrink and spread isn't all that much. Even in the bigger sheet fed printing presses the sprread was very minor. It would sometimes mess us up when doing four color processing on a one color press.
MAN plans used to use a blue line machine to reproduce there plans and that was just using an original laied over a coated paper then it was run under a bright light and developed with ammonia gas, no moisture. I don't know what they are using thesee days but some of the newer machines like Kinko uses can be adjusted for different percentages. If they are set wrong you aren't going to get 100%.

RICKSTUBBZ

Curt,

At 61� paper is not going to shrink 2 1/4". It looks like a printing problem to me[8D]. As in a scaling problem due to selections on the printer properties. It was most likely printed under default/automatic selections and not forced to be 1:1. If the scaling were inconsistent (in some places and inch equaled an inch and some places not) it would suggest paper slip while printing. However from your picture and statements it just looks like the plans were printed at less than 1:1 (about 96.3% actually)

I feel you are right in asking them (MAN Plans) to have a look and replace. I hope they supply you with a reprint and if they do please post it here for all of us to know they are customer oriented and stand behind getting it right. Good Luck.

Iron Bottom

I worked in construction for a lot of years. Employees were told over and over not to scale prints, and if they were caught , they would be fired. Prints just aren't that accurate and all dimensions were on construction prints. I've often wondered why all the dimensions aren't specified on model prints. That's a pretty big error on your prints. I would kindly ask for another.

aerowoof

don't know how you got 7 % 2 1/4 inches of 61 is only 4 %

bullseye000

A lot of companies are going to high end large format copiers. If Air Age replaced their blue line plans with a copier or if they scanned them and are printing to a large format ink jet then somewhere in the process the plan could have been scaled, possibly on the horizontal only. The plans are useless to you. Lucky you caught it before you had a major assembly built. I'd call and have them check them and send replacements.

Nergall

To be fair, I had a lot of negative to say about the plans?

The plane flies great though, even if it is a little too small.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Last month I had a problem with there plans. In this case it was the description of the plane in there yearly catalog wasn't even close to what the plane really was, I used to cut and save those catalogs every year so I have several on hand. I phoned and spoke with a very nice lady about the problem and she told me I would get a phone call from corporate the next day, Corporate?? The call never got to me, this happened 5 times with that same call going to get to me from Corporate. I just can't get past that Corporate term?? It finally ended up me keeping the useless plans and getting a refund. That could have been done on day one, not me waiting for that phone call from Corporate.
I have been buying plans from MAN for decades, never once heard of getting a call from Corporate? Thing is these plans have been in there catalog for decades, I know I'm not the first person to order these plans and say something to them.

Nergall

I just passed on a few corrections to my favorite kit cutter in case CurtRC ordered a short kit from him. The plans had a few errors on them as well. I guess most magazine plans have a few glitches? Though this set seem to have a few more than I would have expected.

Anyway, the kit cutter must have received the same slightly scaled down plans because he listed the wingspan as 57" and all the parts I received matched the plans.

Had it out yesterday and had a blast with it. If it's a little too small then that just makes even more over powered!

curtrc

oh, heh.. "my friend" found me here I didn't even tell him about this post.

Okay so the plans have some glitches, but thats par for the course, Iam much more concerned with critical dimentions and flight characteristics.

Ijust double-checked and indeed the cutter has the wrong wingspan listed. I have a bad feeling about this..

optech

My Feedback: (9)

I ordered a set of plans from AirAge once for a Pietenpol. I got a model boat set of plans!!! After further investigation, the plans come from a different place than where you order. I'm almost positive they contract out the plans. When I called Airage I got the "Somebody will call you back line." Several days go by and nothing so I call again. Same promise and nothing. Third time I call back I'm pissed. The lady says she can see my previous calls and swears the matter will be handled. Again no response so I give up ever getting those plans. No biggie, RC Modeler plans has a similar size plan set. So I send the plans back and demand a refund.... Nothing. So I call my credit card company and reverse the charges.

AIRAGE DOES NOT CARE ONE BIT ABOUT YOU, MODEL AIRPLANE PLANS, OR CUSTOMER SERVICE.

If you want plans with them, "You pays your money and takes your chances", as the saying goes.

I also agree with Gray Beard..... For years I've seen plan description and pictures that do not match. For YEARS the same thing. I cannot fathom that at some point it hasn't been brought to their attention. THEY JUST DO NOT CARE...

Good Luck,
Mike

Nergall

They were fairly accommodating for me. They sent rolled plans, and then e-mailed a .pdf of the build article when I requested it.

Another friend received his plans folded just a few weeks later. Don't they know we want them rolled and will pay for the extra shipping??

curtrc

Mine were folded, I would have paid more to have them rolled if that option had been offered to me. And no build article.

I've gotten the "a manager will call you back in 48 hours" line, which I don't believe, but in fairness am giving them the 48 hours before I escalate.

-Curt

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

To be fair with them I have always gotten the plans I ordered, they are very slow but what the heck, they have always been slow, even when RCM was in operation as a magazine they were slow too. I always thought the plans section of the magazines were perhaps a mom and pop deal where someone had a blue line machine and only turned it on when they had enough orders. I used to operate the blue line machines in the 60s and early 70s and they had to be turned on and the lamps had to warm up while the ammonia started to flow.
I'm pretty sure they now use the big copy machine like Kinko's? Not 100% sure but pretty sure. Anyway, size mistakes can happen with the new machines, not the old blue line machines. To have your plans rolled and mailed in a tube was always an option, your choice and you paid extra for the service. The option is still there, I get mine folded and just use a steam iron to smooth them out then roll them up, printed side out!
Not too many years ago when you ordered a set of plans the original building article would be copied and sent to you with the plans, they quit doing that. This is the first time I have heard you could request those.
I have gotten two sets of plans from MAN in the last month, as luck would have it I just happened to have the 1989 magazine with the build by Nick Ziroli Swoose sea plane. This is a good thing, I can see the photos and not just the copy blurrier. My dream-wish would have been not only Nick but all the builders to have spent more time talking/showing the build itself instead of all the Blaa Blaa Blaa, history and personal BS. Sorry Nick but I would have liked to ask questions about the building of the plane and could care less about how much fun the original 1946 plane was.
Oh well, that is my rant!! We call it scratch building all the time instead of plans building anyway. Building just from the plans and a bit of a hint and a photo or two from the article is a big help. It could be worse and I could have had to design and draw my own plans like in days of old. I used to design my own free flights and U-Controls, plans are easier!!

curtrc

Sorry to say Ihave not heard a word from AirAge despite three calls ( "a manager will contact you within 48 hours, really") and several emails. The closest I got was a copy of the UPS tracking number (indicating delivery)without explanation from a "do not reply" email address.

I'm sure they think I'm some kind of scale kook who is complainint about a strut 1mm out of place or something, but I've given up trying to get someone to take a ruler to their misprinted plans *shrug*. I've made peace with the idea of building it 96% and have starteed a build thread for those interested:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11048479/tm.htm

smithcreek

My Feedback: (25)

Why not just go to Kinkos/Staples and have them blow it up a bit? 3" is a lot in a small biplane.

curtrc

That was actually my plan, but as Isay in the build-thread it's just not worth it because the cutter is not taking new projects, and I already know it flies well with a 30cc

redbiscuits

My Feedback: (6)

I second that. I run a 6 color Heidelberg 40" press. On a terrible china made sheet these days we only get maximum 1/64-1/32 sheet flair from the center to the corners. That's a mile off for us printers.
I'd say their scaling was all screwed up when it came off their inkjet.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

KORD KORS SORM One color. Lots of cleaning!! Only had problems on 20 LB Bond. As to that phone call tomorrow from corporate forget it, just call and ask for the refund!! They did the refund and didn't want me to return the plans?? In my case I couldn't use them but if you get the refund then it will cost you nothing to go to Kinko's to get an enlargement.

Jim_Purcha

My Feedback: (8)

The costto ship plans across the Canadian/US border is brutal though. Don't complain in the US of shipping costs of $10.00. I can'tget a set of plans for less than $15.00 postage.

I've had no problem with airage for the buying of plans.If the plans did not arrive after a few weeks, they sent out another set of plans in the mail. I watch for the 50%sales for airage plans. RCM is still relatively inexpensive.

Jim

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I have never once not gotten plans I have ordered from MAN / air age and the OP got his plans. The problem is they are wrong, not what was advertised, undersized. Same with me, I got my plans, they were plans number FSP07852. If you read the discription of the plane it is a pattern plane that looks like a stand off P-51. When I got the plans there is nothing about them that has anything to do with a pattern plane. It is just an other 60 sise SCALE P-51. Dime a dozen. These plans have been sold sense 1985 and I'm sure I'm not the first one that noticed the error in the discription. The photo in the catalog looks like a pattern looking P-51! I wanted to speak to someone about this little problem!
Corporate will phone me tomorrow!! Tomorrow never came!!!!!!!!! Got a refund and got another set of plans.
I have been looking at that P-51 for years but always wanted to build something else first. I finally got around to the P-51 after a couple of decades just to find it incorrect. I don't care if if the plans come in a tube or come folded, I don't care if they take a month or more to get here. I do want the plans to be correct when I get them and if I'm promised a phone call the next day I want that phone call, after all the years I have used there service I feel I should get better customer service without any Bull **** no mater how nice the operator is!!!![:@]