ARF = built by Chinese workers.

Kit = built by anyone else.

Sounds about right......maybe a "BIY" catagory....Build It Yourself?

Good, this shows me that you have not lost your sense of humor:-) and as long as we hang on to that, we will be OK. I still did not run out of available kits I want to build, but if that day ever comes, I have a long list of plans one can have the wood cut for.

As far as the frustration about the way people use the words, or assign meanings, well I know one thing or 2 about that:-) I am a linguist... ARFs is a new term, and the way people are using the word, they call it kit, and they build them. Is it the best choice? No, of course. But there are hundred of wrong word choices done every year, sad to report. And people start using the term with a certain meaning, and there is no going back. That is why they call it live languages, they grow, evolve, and change.

Happy landings

Gerry
Balsa USA 1/4 scale PA-18, Sig 1/4 scale J3, electric Telemaster, electric 1/4 scale RV ARF, GP 1/5 scale Curtiss Hawk. Overhauling my old Balsa USA Morane Saluliner 1/3 and building a Fokker DVIII, plus some small models in RTF condition.

There are quite a few full size arfs out there. kits come in a few different types and assembly ranges. Ebay should differentiate a little better. I dont get the rant thing. Do you want people to sympathise or defend ebay or sell you a kit im confused?

I've built a couple of arfs. I say that because they were so crappy that I had to build fixes and build things correctly. They were also not 'almost' ready to do anything but suck.

Don't you love the hot glue in those things? It makes me laugh because I got paid to get those things in flying condition.

Why do some care so much about the distinctgion between kit and arf. If you like to build.. build.. if you prefer to assemble.. assemble... Kits are easily found if you look.. they're all ove the place.

I buy kits... i know what I mean as a kit and thats all tha matters. I also have some arfs. But I pefer to show up at the field with something no one else (which isnt to hard to do these days) and wasn't made by a chemical reaction (foam ).

KB - who would'a guessed that you liked to build kits - wow

If ya don't have to communicate with someone else it's not important. Just kinda nice to have the illusion that you're on the same page.

I have 5 kits out in the shop but I keep finding new plans I like better? I figure as long as I'm still building the good lord will allow me to stick around, AKA the Winchester House It's a thought anyway? I have another double build right behind the one I'm working on now but I also just got another set of plans so I'm thinking I should just build one of the next in line so I can get to the new plane. At last, something not inked by Joe Demarco with all his errors. This is a new set of MAN plans, Drawn in 2010 and CAD designed, first set of perfect plans I have ever gotten from MAN. I can't locate one error yet. These would be a great set of plans for people that send there plans to a cutter. I have never gotten a set that were CAD drawn. I have been given kits that were laser cut and CAD drawn by customers but never for myself. I can't wait to get started on this build. This is the first time I have been excited by a set of plans in a long time!! Can't wait!!

It's kinda like pornography..... I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it!

And please stop listing old magazines in the kit section on ebay!

I don't like the word "Kit" it brings to mind drug use.

"Dude, bring your kit, we'll get high".

We should instead use the old English word for a bundle of sticks.

"I got to work on my fagg0t in the bacement tonight".

<span class="ssens">To quote Wesbters  "BUILD"    : to form by ordering and uniting materials by gradual means into a composite whole. 

According to the guru of vocabulary, there is NO segregation in the act of building whether it comes from individual sticks or preformed pieces. 

If one wants to spend 6 months of perfectly good flying time "building" (gluing sticks together), that is their option. 

If one wants to spend 6 hours "building" (some pre-assembed parts) and fly a lot (as many times as factory glue will hold), that's their option as well.

This hobby would benefit greatly if the egos were left in the garage and the love of this great adventure were the main reason people showed up at a flying field.  I think I enjoyed the beginning days of the ugly sticks and 40 sized beaters more than I do today when money and ego are the primary reason the pilots show up and the field.   I can feel the love of the sport when a young man brings his best flying plane to the field and doesn't have to spend 2 hours unwrapping it and parking it in a certain place and direction so his everyone has to walk by it and gawk at it.

My RANT OF THE DAY....going ANYWHERE with the wife and daughter and having an employee of the establishment  come up and say,  "HEY GUYS......"   I still don't consider my wife or my daughter to be a guy! 

ALSO...people chose the category(s) for thier listings on Ebay.  Ebay doesn't do that!   Misfiled listings are the sellers option.  You need to understand, the more keywords they select, the more people accidentally run across their listing.  Would I want 100 X the exposure for my listing...  You're damned toot'n I would!  Just maybe someone will see it and buy it not even knowing they wanted one.  </span>

Goto the RCU 2-Stroke Glow engine section and count the gas,electrics,,and turbines.

<span class="ssens">According to my favorite online dictionary: (Mariam Webster) GUY: used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex <span class="vi"><saw her="" and="" the="" rest="" of="">guys&gt;</saw></span></span>

Just sayin' ...

It's funny... After a decade of "pre-built"/"ARF" airplanes, we've forgotten what a kit is. Sig sells its LT-40 in an "ARF" and "Kit" version. Define the differences in these two products and you will define what a "kit" is and what an "AFR" is.

Here is my take on it:
If you don't "glue" anything more on the airplane than the tail and join the wing halves, you're probably holding an AFR.
If you don't "sand" anything beyond the light fitting of the light-ply tank floor, it's probably an ARF.
If you find yourself buying rolls of MonoKote or Ultracote, you've either crashed an AFR or are building a Kit.
If you can fly it in a few days with little or no experience after having been in the hobby for less than six months, it's likely an ARF.
If you have to coat bare wood in the engine compartment to fuel proof it, it's a kit (or bad AFR).
If at any point in construction you're holding a lone, unattached wing rib or fus former, you're probably building a Kit.
If you've been in the hobby 40 years and it still takes two weeks of skilled, dedicated, labor to get it airborne, it's likely a Kit.
If there are 500 of 'em in the world the same exact color, it's likely an ARF. If there are 2 in your club exactly the same, it's probably an AFR.
If you don't feel sightly like crying when it crashes, it's probably an ARF.
If it came in a box 6"x6"x36", it's probably a Kit.
If it came with full size plans, it's probably a Kit.
If the first step in the instructions is to mount the motor mount to the firewall, it's probably not a Kit.
If the fuselage is straight and the wing is not warped, and you don't know how it got that way, it's probably an AFR.
If the fuselage is like a banana and the wing is a DNA double helix, it's not only a kit, it's a kit I likely built.
If the plane is less than 50% light ply, it's likely a Kit.
If when you open the box for the first time, an uniformed bystander can't tell if it's a boat or airplane, it's probably a Kit.
If you when you close the tailgate of the family van on the wing and crush the last three rib bays, your first response is buy another plane, you're probably flying an ARF.
If you cartwheel the plane on landing thereby breaking the fuselage in half and decide it'd be less time consuming to fix it than buy another, it's probably not an ARF.
If the inside of the box smells like plastic covering, it's an ARF. If it smells like fresh cut wood, it's probably a Kit.
If there was less than five things in your cart when you bought it, it's likely you bought an ARF.

Feel free to add. Adjust opinion to taste.

Bill

Those were the days!!!!!!!!!!!!

I woke up this morning.

Everything else won't bother me.

Our current Prez says we didn't build anything by ourselves.
M

Well played!

I say to some Top Gun winner with an highly detailed model. "You didn't make that!"

You guys are going about this all wrong, still debating the same thing again. What the OP has a problem with is Internet sales and marketing. He has to understand how the Internet works, it works with "key words" the more you have that are in the "general" catagory of your item the more<div>People that will have exposure to you item and the more likely you will sell the item. So to the OP's rant you will have to get better at searching or get used to weed through all the crap that you don't want.</div>

Err... I thought this was understood from the beginning. I think we all understand the use of key words and the advantage of getting them right for the marketing of an item. It's why many used Evolution engines I see on E-Bay are listed as "Used Evolution... Not OS, Not new. Not NIB Engine" A search for "NIB OS Engine", pulls up a free look at a used Evolution. After all, why would the seller be listing what it is NOT?

I think what you've misunderstood is that using words that don't apply is really irritating. Hence the thread starter's rant. You are correct in that this thread did get a little hijacked when some seemed to suggest that is was difficult to distinguish between an ARF and Kit and thereby making it OK to list a Tower Trainer .60 ARF as a "kit". That's were I came in.

I think patience is the key here. Key word wise using ebay I got about 2/3rds balsa kits and 1/3rd arf kits in the list. So if ebay and ebay listers(And quite a few ebay listers by out estates and dont know what the damn thing is they just want the $) So if your getting sick of it quit.

In the OPs defense, when a seller lists an item he/she must put it in a "category". One category that falls under radio control airplanes is for "almost ready" while another category is for "unassembled kit". It used to be if you search just using the categories regular old kits are the majority of items in "unassembled kit". Now that ebay is being flooded with Chinese people selling directly from businesses or apartments in China the number of ARFs that show up in the "unassembled kit" category has skyrocketed making the category almost useless. Whether it's a language thing or a marketing strategy to just flood ebay with items in every category that remotely resembles the product I don't know, but it is annoying. I don't do much surfing on ebay since I've started scratch building most planes, but I have noticed it.

I don't mean to get into the ARF vs Kit debate but I am pretty comfortable determining the difference.  If I open the box and covering isn't anywhere in the box much less on any portion of the airframe, that's the first sign that it's a kit.  The second sign is if I open the box and there is nothing in it that that looks like an airplane or any substantial part there of.  That pretty much does it for me. 

One last point, in my opinion, one builds kits and assembles ARFs.  And just to be clear, I have no problem with either.  The point of this hobby is to have fun and how you get there is unimportant to me.

I hope you are all having fun!