EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

Ya think? You know the score - you've seen this guy before.

SunDevilPilot

I have no problem telling my opinion... but I have real doubts anyone gives a rats arse... Heck, I always tell my flying buddy what to do and he always does the exact opposite.

I say Futaba, he says Spectrum.
I say kits, he says ARFS.
I say electric, he says gas. (I field charge with a gas generator so I guess we have a comprimise there)

I guess he doesn't mind being wrong all the time!

SunDevilPilot

EJWash1

My Feedback: (3)

So, here I am driving out to one of our Valley lakes for our regular Sunday picnic and it hits me: "what does dope actually *do* to fabric?" And, for that matter, what is the composition of dope? Man, did that open a ton of doors. I tucked that question away and enjoyed the afternoon eating and soaking.

Frank Ts Stuff

My Feedback: (130)

We use Solartex covering for our fabric covered models. Shown here at Top Gun 2013 is my father's Balsa USA Nieuport in "Natural Solartex" (unpainted wings). Fuse and markings were painted with latex paint.

-Sean

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

I am going to recommend this. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/...n/peelply3.php

I am currently covering a DR1 triplane, and it works fabulous. Cannot beat the price either. I am sticking it down with Sig Stix it, and sealing it up with Butyrate dope from aircraft spruce as well. The dope is great as it works well to feather the seams together with fine sandpaper when cured. It will also keep the fabric tight. Although, the dacron shrinks with heat. I am using my iron and my heat gut to apply.
Also, I am using silkspan for my rib tapes. It lays down nice and tight with the dope as well. Sorry, I know it smells bad, but dope is the best bet for overall finish quality on planes. Especially when duplicating the ones that used it. Of course Water based poly U will work on this covering as well. As a sealer after the fact, if the wife is aversed to the smell of the dope! lol

tejician1

My Feedback: (2)

First...Welcome back into the hobby...You will discover things have changed by quantum leaps since you've been gone....

I have been covering model planes with a very light weight polyester fabric (dress lining), which is very similar (exactly like) to STITS and/or SIG Coverall. I purchased the fabric at my local Wal Mart in the fabric & sewing department at a fraction of the price one pays for the STITS or SIG fabrics. I've covered several 1/4 scale aircraft ( Sopwith Pup, J-3 Cub, large Ugly Stiks, CL stunters, etc, etc. ) with the light weight polyester fabric, using it just like we all did in the good old days of applying silk n' dope. After I've attached the fabric to my surfaces I shrink it down with a heat gun or monokote iron. Then, to produce a very nice finish, do not use your clear dope full strength, mix it 50/50 ( clear to reducer ) then, to further save your money go to your local PPG automotive paint store and purchase a gallon of their in-house brand JR 506 medium flash reducer. Having recently returned to CL flying I've used the Wal Mart poly fabric and nitrate clear dope on my planes, reducing it with the PPG in house brand reducer JR 506 and received superior & light weight covering results. I've been in this hobby a very long time (over 65 years) and have learned a thing or two about using a number of products that are exactly like the products we used to find on the shelves of our local hobby shops.

You mentioned wanting to possibly remove fabric that is torn or tattered from some surfaces on your airplane(s). I have used MEK which works well but one must be careful to not splash any in your eyes or use in a closed air space, the results of doing so are potentially deadly.

Zor

Hi guys,

Since I have seen some recently posted pictures I am assuming that I also can post some and perhaps satisfy "Bob (sensei) on his request.

Incidentally, my understandng of dope is that it is not a lacquer nor a plasticized lacquer. Aircraft dope is an acetate, a cellulose, a polysaccharide of high tensile strength, the main constituent of plant cells walls and perfectly compatible with texttiles. We can thus understand its weather resistance in the outdoors just like plants exposed to the weather all the time.

In "The Good Old Times" I was using dope made by a company called "Berry Brothers" and their label was actually marked "Aceto Butyrate dope".

I see from some recent postings that some fellows have been using what I have preached for a long time in these forums. So if I am crazy and know nothing about building model airpIlanes as some guy keeps posting about then I am not alone _ _ _ Hee! Hee! .

Unfortunately, in this forum we cannot write captions so after posting some pictures I may have to do some editing to include in the main body of the text some explanations. I will see how it goes.

Here comes 15 pictures _ _ _ hope it works fine._ _ _
They are from a horizontal tail component which is being modified to provide stabilizer and elevators.

Zor


P.S.: I find tha we can upload only 12 pics per message.

Editing after the pics were uploaded.
As seen in the first picture a single piece of fabric is wrapping along the leading edge. Both top and bottom can be seen at the hinge lines. When the unit is vertical it is because both faces have received a coat of dope (top and bottom) and are curing simultaneously.

No heating has been used for shrinking; the dope does its own tightening.
The dope used on this tail was not the good dope; it had been bought from a LHS.
Masking was used and in the end result there is clear nitrate and clear butyrate under the white and same under the red and the blue. There is no white under the red and under the blue.

The little red flag was painted on top of the white. It is also dope and not a decal.
I have much more detailed covering and finishing for my Skybolt but I hope you will realize that it takes valuable time to search for pictures taken years ago in a population of over 5,000 photographs.

It is now 7:12 AM and I am going to bed after working on this most of the night.

Cheers,

Zor

Zor

Here are 3 more pictures that could not be uploaded in previous message due to limitations of this forum.

Zor

sensei

Zor,

Thank you for sharing your fit, covering, and finishing techniques with us, I always love learning something new, in some cases, the what not to does...

Bob

3136

Well bugger me! I just came across this thread, can you all remember that the op asked for help and advice.
Most of what I have seen here is bickering that grade 3 girls would conduct in.
Is this what you want to portray to a new rc member?
Well done guys, beat your chests like a gorilla, I hope you are proud of yourselves.
I'm glad my rc club isn't like that.

sensei

Thanks for popping in Mark and adding something constructive of your own about covering our toy airplanes...

Bob

raptureboy

Oh yeh! well your mother wears combat boots and my dad can beat up your dad. Elvis(OP) has left the buildingOnly one way to settle this dispute.. paint guns at 10 pacesYou guys are really something else, absolutely nothing really worth reading, just like a car wreak we can't help but slow down and look though.Gotta go now, have fun and good luck with that build op no matter what covering you use.

bikerbc

I haven't learned anything except grown ups can behave like little kids.. For me this hobby is suppose to be fun.. When somebody asks for help we should try to help.. I dont like to see anybody attacking anybody just because they have a different idea or process.. There is room for us to post our own ideas...If we keep an open mind sometimes we will learn something new..I am not sure if those that argue here think that others enjoy this or actually believe who ever wins the argument is smarter or a better builder or more honest or whatever but I think most of us would sooner they would practice displaying good manners and being polite to each other ..Go ahead and beat up on me if you wish.. I should be an easy target as I am handicapped ..By the way all my covering is century 21 fabric iron on stuff because I have never learned how to do the dope stuff ..I even have the perfect shop to do it in.. My shop was a body shop at one time...So I can vent the smell .. But learning how on here is a lost cause.. Nothing but bickering going on...I would love to learn how.. I would use Stits fabric .. For the first time anyway...I have a difficult time learning new things rite now but its getting better.. Someone would need to have a lot of patients to teach me how to cover..My Century 21 jobs turn out pretty good though .. I can live with them for now.. I end up crashing them eventually anyway...

MTK

I agree....me neither!

If you want learn how to cover and finish a well done covering job, you may want to read Bob Hunt's column in MA regularly. Bob uses time honored methods and techniques using nitrate dopefor bedding things like silkspan, carbon veil, poly span and plyspan and finishes using DuPont Chroma paints. Bob will also on occasion have guest authors on his column where they discuss variation to the time honored techniques.

Technique is straight forward.....I learned it on my own almost 50 years ago and I'm still using similar refined methods today. I could only wish I could afford magazines back when I was a kidso I could read the how to's that had to appear in them back then.

If you decide to experiment on your own, let me suggest Randolph dopes from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty. Sig dope works as well except it's twice the cost. Sig is probably repackaged Randolph. Brodak has a full line of dopes also. One small warning about Stits (similar technique to dope), their paint can be rather irritating to the sinuses. I stopped using theirs because I'd get sick to my stomach when I entered the workshop that had even a slight hint of Stits paint fumes. Others have great succes with it. Technique is pretty much similar

Here's a very simple trick to use with the lightweight paper based material like silkspan or Esaki Plyspan rice paper: when you are ready to apply the paper, spritz it with water spray to loosen the fibers. Don't soak it, just loosen it. Carefully place it on the solid surface you are covering (like a fuse side), smoothen as well as practical, and tack down the perimeter only. Let the paper dry....

Wrinkles will disappear as the paper shrinks when it dries. It makes doping the dry paper very simple....It won't throw wrinkles in and it won't raise wood grain. This simple trick finishes into a lighter overall finish job.....Good luck

Zor

Bob (aka sensei) and all readers,

This posting is NOT aimed at Bob (sensei) in particular but more to the general reader.

I would not be surprised that some comments may be posted to the effect that Zor is just showing up (showing off for his ego ?). Nothing would be further from the truth. For those who read superficially or do not read all but are reading this please remember (note) that I am now posting how I do the covering and finishing is because of a request, a challenge from Bob (sensei) due to another individual who has been claiming for years that I know nothing about modeling and building and I am nothing but an intruder in the forums and I am just trolling and that is regardless of the multitude of postings and pictures I have posted in the past. Oh! yes _ _ _ it has been claimed that I only post pictures borrowed (stolen) from others. There is not enough background in the pictures of part of my basement and dining room areas proving that the pictures are taken in my home.

I will now soon add more postings treating the following subjects about _ _ _
sanding,
applying masking tape,
removing masking tape,
finish protection,
repairing a puncture,
the fabric threads alignment,
some things to avoid,
brushes and dilution,
the handling of the dope,
Perhaps other items as I think of them.

AGAIN _ _ _ I post and do my best to backup what and how I do with reasons and illustrations.
I am far from being the best builder. I do not care as much as some others about details and appearance.
Anyones, of course, decide for themselves how they proceed.
I build compromising for strength versus weight, for experimental flight behavior, and as a reminiscence of the years spent as a professional pilot.

I cannot control the thoughts of anyone. If you think I am a trolling useless individual then I can only say _ _ _
Enjoy your thoughts.

Zor

sensei

I think everyone is taking all this way to seriously, messing around and posting on the internet is a fun pass time, but 90% hog wash, it is certainly not the hobby part of building and flying our toys, look at what we did before the invent of these forums... If we wanted to learn how to do something new, then we got off our duffs, dug in, and got some practical experience on our own. you are not going to become proficient on anything in these forums without just jumping in and doing the work while trying things out for yourselves, really! It is kind of like flying our models, to get very good at it you must burn fuel and put in the time, nobody in these forums is going to talk you into being a better pilot on line...

Bob

DeferredDefect

Not to stir the pot, but the vast majority of human powered aircraft, and many lightweight experimental designs make use of shrunk mylar film - in fact, the covering techniques are almost identical to that of using Monokote on an R/C model, with irons and heat guns. The only difference is that the film is first attached to the structure with double sided tape!

Below is the McCready designed "Bionic Bat", which used stored energy for competing in the Kremer Speed competition. The covering being used, I believe was 1/2 mil Mylar.


That's enough history for today, folks!


Tons of info here:
http://pictures.propdesigner.co.uk/

Zor

Hi folks,

My curiosity has no end

Today I went and retrieved this horizontal tail surface and found it to be tight as a drum after over five years.
True it has not been exposed to the outdoors but the weather and the sun in particular is known to increase the tightening of dope surfaces as compared to plastic film that becomes loose and wrinkles under the heat of the sun as often mentioned by modelers. I have no pesonal experience of that since I have never used shrinking plastic film.

This exercise to become a stab and elev is from an old Mambo and had two main purpose _ _ _
1- to eventually become a full control rebuilt model . . .
2- to test the dope bought from an LHS being a new brand; a new product for me.

Notice that the center of the bottom surface had not been fully cleaned of the old covering. I was more concened at the time with testing the new dope in anticipation of finishing the Skybolt.

So I took two pictures today.

Zor

Zor

GraemeEllis

It remains true that I have never seen one

I notice that this site is from the UK.

Thanks for posting the link.

Zor

countilaw

Why would you wrap the wing with silk that has been soaked in dope. I have never done it this way. I usually paint the outside edges
of the wing with dope, lay my dry silk down on it , stretch it tight and paint another coat of dope around the perimeter and let dry. The next step would be to
spray water on the unpainted silk and let it shrink. After it was dry and the whole wing was covered with silk, and shrunk tight, then I would apply clear dope
to the silk equally to both sides. ( applying dope to both sides prevents the doped silk from warping the wing) Doing one panel at a time as
illustrated here would induce serious case of warping.

Maybe this is a new technology that I am not familiar with?

Frank

fred985

i belive solortex is another type of ceconite. anyway, have you ever found a place that serves beck dark draft beer? [not bottled crap] ? guiness is my fsaverite but i couldent belive the becks. i found it at a 150 year old inn just south of providence rhode island. what this has to do with crash worthiness of ceconte covering i dont know. anyway after consuming enough of the becks dark draft i went out to my Kenworth double bunk and slept like a log. i have no piks of my handywork but it is all passable and anything i build will and does fly. my real planes were a 450 stearman in which i took all my training and got my ticket,, a howard dga-15p , a standard 65 cub and a 100 0-200 clipwing cub. and they all flew great. look up N-4734-C and you will see my stearman.

Zor

Hello Frank,

I am glad you posted with your comments. It gives you the opportunity to understand better with the following explanation from me.

I do not and did not wrap the wing (stabilizer in this case) with silk that has been soaked in dope. I guess you have assumed that without looking at the second picture immediatly to the right of the one you included in your post. This fabric is not silk; it is polyester. That frame was first coated with two coats of nitrate dope and the fabric was cemented while dry around the periphery with stix-it and had no wrinkles.

If you look again you will notice that behind the hinge line in the area of the elevator there is two layers of fabric. One on the top face and one coming from underneath. The fabric is wrapped around the leading edge and comes back on both faces.

What you see is a picture taken immediatly after the first coat of nitrate on one face. I need two hands to handle my camera so I deposited the stab, took the picture, deposited the camera and contimued applying the first coat on the other face. The result was as seen in the second picture with the stab standing up while both faces are curing. You notice how well the fabric has been tensioned by the curing dope. Not using heat to pre-tighten the fabric avoids too much pull that may distort or, as you say, warp the frame.

Hope this clarifies your mind and again I am glad you posted as many other fellows looking at this quickly may have had the same impression you got. If this forum allowed captions under each picture it would help a lot to present our case.

Best to you from Zor

Zor

I found a more recent threads initiated by "oldbassard" on the 16 of June.

Since we have not heard from him in this thread also initiated by him, I have posted a note in the other thread asking him if he has finished with this thread.

I do not see any point of spending many hours to pursue any more information and then be accused of highjacking this thread.

Zor

sensei

Zor,

Give it a rest and leave that poor guy alone, or you may be considered a stalker in some circles...

Bob

Hab

and please, crack the window or door open a little more when using dope !... ... VENTILLATION!