sensei

How is the covering going Gene, have you started the fuselage or tail feathers yet?

Bob

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I got started for serious on the fuse yesterday. About the only thing new I have discovered is when I was putting on the fillets around the stab, it doesn't like going over epoxy. Not that any of them do but as I ironed it on it started to shrink, I had the iron too hot. As it tried to shrink away from the little bit of epoxy left on the outside of the glue joint the color/glue stuck to the epoxy and the covering pulled away leaving a little clear area. I used thinned epoxy on the fire wall to fuel proof and it stuck to that just fine. Flat surface. Ultra and mono do the same thing but when they shrink away the color doesn't lift and show clear.
I was just over looking in your photo file the other day. I figure this stuff could save you about a thousand bucks per plane. Most these guys wouldn't understand that statement. It mics out the same as Mono but acts like Ultra. Ultra is a bit thicker so there is a weight savings with this stuff. It is only 25 inches wide but it comes in really long rolls, over 20 foot. It may work out well for you too. I still haven't gone onto the HK site to see what colors they have or the cost.
Gene

Zor

Hi Gray Beard,

Reading your post raises questions in my mind.

Do I properly undersnd that the glue and color layers remained on the epoxy and the clear transpaent film layer only pulled off ?
If so it would confirm my previously mentioned comment about the adhesion of the pigment layer to the clear plastic film.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and I am still wondering to what extend this coveing would help the strength of the model in a bad landing.

Zor

GallopingGhostler

Plastic films changed the way planes are designed. They are inherently weaker than the older covering methods like silk. This film shrinks tight just like the others. Monokote is a touch stiffer. The film is stronger than the foam compatible coverings like Econokote, the old Hobby Shack film. I'm not concerned about the more modern designs, intended to be covered with plastic covering. The older designs back in the silk and dope era are the ones I am strengthening during build. With the more modern frameworks, I think this film will do just fine.

sensei

You sure got that right, it costs a fortune to cover and paint one of mine, that is why I am so interested in what you are accomplishing.

Bob

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

For Zoars answer, that is exactly what had happened, the glue/pigment pulled when I had the iron way too hot and stuck to the little bit of epoxy I didn't/wasn't able to remove. The same thing has happened to me with both mono and ultra covering to some degree. You must keep in mind how hot I had the iron though. for fillets I lay them down then turn up the iron almost to the coverings melting point then smooth them out. This makes the edges almost as smooth as the wood and you can't see the fillets after I have covered the plane. It's just one of the little things I do. As for the normal covering when I don't over shrink anything it is just fine. It happens on my fillets quite often.
I have never thought of covering as adding strength to a plane, it does but it's nothing to give a lot of thought to. No covering or even glassing is going to help in one of my hard landings, the only thing that tends to break is the landing gear block. That's another reason some people, not me, use plastic/nylon bolts to hold there LG in with. That allows the bolts to shear off before the blocks break out. Last week I had a hard landing with the Swoose and it split one of the blocks in half and how the plane was covered had no effect on it.
Plastic covering is much stronger then silk span and I still use silk span in a lot of cases. This covering is not going to delamanate in normal flying, not even my normal flying and I tend to really hurt ARFs. Nothing I have ever built is crash proof, although I had tried to build them that way years ago. I discovered the errors of my ways and learned to land properly like other people. Well, most of the time but things happen.This plane is built more like one of Bobs, very light weight. My fear is the wood will let go, not the covering.
Bob, I'm just taking a lunch break but later tonight I really have to go on HKs site to look this stuff. This covering is only a 25 inches wide, wish the covering manufactures would start making it 36 inches wide. It would really help out in a lot of cases. I have my camera out in the shop so may post some photos tonight? I have been asked about the fillets and will show the way they are used to fudge so seams are hidden.
Gene

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Just photos of the fillets before I cover the real surface. Just gives me some fudge room and hides the seams. I just butt up the surface covering to the fillet then iron. The one photo shows a big wrinkle I got when removing the backing. To cover the slab sided fuse there was a small problem, it is angled and wasn't going to iron without wrinkles so I did what I would normally do when using Solartex, I just ironed down the top and bottom about two inches ironing towards the center of the fuse. Got as far as I could without ironing in any of the wrinkles then took the heat gun to the center moving the gun forward. Just like Tex every wrinkle shrunk itself right out for a smooth wrinkle free finish. This stuff will really shrink up, just like Ultra or Tex. Got sick of covering for the day and haven't bothered to open up any of the holes for switches or tubes. Tomorrow is another day. Well, maybe tonight, I forgot it's Monday and my wife will be watching football but I have a good book going so I may just read through the game.
Gene

GallopingGhostler

Looking good, Gene. I've found the stuff goes around compound bends decently, after repairing the balsa on this GP Big Stik .60 ARF wing tip, covered as 2 piece, one on top, on on bottom.

hsukaria

That's excellent quality work, Gray Beard. That covering is really YELLOW!!! I bet all the joints have glue in them too, unlike the ARF I crashed last week.

hsukaria

The Big Stik I have also has the wing bottom covering the same as the top. I kept getting confused when flying, so I peeled the Iron Crosses from the bottom side of the wing. I recently purchased some chinacote with red/white checkered pattern and am entertaining the idea of re-covering the wing bottom with it.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I have one ARF, the Aeroworks Extra electric. It's pretty strong after I repaired the fuse in it's weak spot. Kit and plans building is all I do. This one I got the plans from Airage/MAN plans service and they are CAD drawn. Frame up takes about a week. First time I have gotten CAD plans and they make building really easy. Wish they were all like these, all the parts fit without making any mods. The wood I had for the build was total crap I got from Lone Star Balsa, never will I ever buy from them again, I will stick with National Balsa. Never gotten a bad stick of wood from them.

sensei

I am with you Gene, I too wish plastic covering came wider, it is a real pain when covering a wing with a 36" root rib and open bays, the planning in beginning can get unreal along with the purchase of 5 ea. 25' rolls of MonoKote for one stinking airplane...

My 6' 2" flying buddy holding my wing.



Bob

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

The photo may give the guys the answer why you are wondering about how this covering works. I looked it up and from the U.S. warehouse it is $9.07 for a 5 meter roll plus the state side shipping charge. As I recall Mono is 27 inch wide, that always struck me as really odd. Then you have to remove the outside waste. This stuff even comes in check and silver.
A question for anyone: I want to put a name on the wing and was wondering if anyone has had a banner made at a copy center then used it as a template? Cost? I was thinking of going someplace with a plot cutter. We have window tint places all over, just wondering if they would cut the letters for me on the covering? I have no connections with anyone with a plot cutter but it would be nice once in a while. I hate cutting out letters.
Gene

GallopingGhostler

Mono is 26" wide. http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHV21&P=0 ; You're right about the waste, but one needs overlap to pull while heating anyway. HK film is 25.12" wide. Haven't tried a plotting cutter.

Zor

Gene

Is this the kind of thing you would like to do ?


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/kit-...l#post11649229

If this link works browse down a bit .

Zor

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

George, the waste I mentioned is only that odd 1/8 clear that mono leaves on the outside, not a big deal. Just something mono has always had. At 14 bucks a roll you are already saving five bucks compared to this CK stuff. 14 bucks also only buys you a 2 meter/6 foot roll and the CK is a 5 meter 25 foot roll. My plane takes 25 feet to do the base color so one roll is doing the trick, that would have cost me $70.00. I think ultra is now the same price as mono. When I started buying it the price for ultra was around 2 or 3 bucks less. It has gone up in the last couple of years not to mention they no longer produce the color match paint. I really miss the paint, it was always a great color match. Anyway, the point is the big two are pricing themselves out of the market. My favorite covering is the Solartex but it has always been priced very high due to what it is. Last plane I built using the Tex was a cub a couple years back and I had to get a second mortgage on the farm to cover that plane. I have the plans for a Howard Pete and a Red Lion. They are both stick built so the wood cost would be less then the covering, only covering either one could use is TEX. Silk and dope would be cheaper but I like the look and to work with TEX.
Zor, the first time I opened that page it showed some very fancy covered bolt then the page jumped to something you and Bob were talking about, decals or something? Too early in the morning to be doing any looking or thinking. You know, old person sleep, 5 or 6 hours but wishing for more! Anyway, I assume you were asking about the covering on that bolt. Truth is I don't have a thought in my head yet about trim design. I'm pretty good with covering but I haven't got a bit of artist in me. Base color is easy for me but then I'm lost. Only thing I do know at this point is the name going on the wing and I know I would like to do it in something besides block letters. Cliff and Rick are pretty good with design work for covering jobs. When they were here I really admired there planes. Maybe I should post a photo of my plane assembled in it's very bright yellow and have a design the trim contest?? I may have nothing artistic in my head:read original thought, but I can copy most anything I see. I would like to at least get the name on the wing first so I can work around it. I also need to do a complete inventory on what covering I have on hand.
Gene

Zor

Gene,

I hope the above is clarifying things for your understanding.

I just thought that you were talking about name as being the airplane registration.
Personally I consider the registration as the name of any aircraft.

Zor

GallopingGhostler

Gene, you have that correct about them pricing themselves out of the market. I based my costs as follows:

Mono 6 foot rolls:

• TF Mono: 26 in x 72 in = 1,872 sq in.
• HK Film: 5m = 5,000 mm /25.4 mm/in = 196.85 in / 12 in/ft = 16.40 ft. HK width 638 mm / 25.4 mm/in = 25.12 in x 196.85 in = 4,945 sq in.
• 4,945 sq in / 1,872 sq in = 2.64 HK equivalent rolls to Mono.
• HK Order total shipping included = $36.69.
• HK 3 rolls x 2.64 = 7.92 equivalent Mono rolls.
• $36.69 / 7.92 = $4.63 cost per equivalent Mono roll.

Each 5 meter HK Film roll is 16.4 feet long, not 25 feet. TF Mono 6 foot roll is currently $14 x 7.92 = $110.88. Therefore $110.88 - $36.69 = $74.19 savings.

Calculating to Mono 25 ft rolls:

• TF Mono: 25 ft x 12 in/ft = 300 in x 26 in = 7,800 sq in.
• HK Film: 4,945 sq in / 7,800 sq in = 0.634 equivalent Mono rolls.
• HK 3 rolls x 0.634 = 1.902 equivalent Mono rolls.
• $36.69 / 1.902 = $19.29 cost per equivalent Mono 25 foot roll.

TF Mono 25 foot roll is currently $55 x 1.902 = $104.61. Therefore $104.61 - $36.69 = $67.92 savings.

I like the older Coverite Micafilm, but alas it is no longer produced and is a bit more work to apply. Silk and dope producs a really nice finish. For now, it seems that the adhesive backed iron on finishes win out, because I can have a whole plane covered in one day. (Haven't tried 1/5th scale or quarter.)

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

Zor, Big Ugly ******* may not be a name anyone would allow to get registered.
I just had to work with some Mono and in an area I couldn't just use ammonia, I had to iron it on. What a bunch of crap after working with the Chinakote!! I cut some Ultra black in small strips and used it around the mono, what a complete pleasure. Lunch break then I will go out and glue on the tail feathers. That will be it for the day so I can stick my nose back into a book. Everything on the fuse came out nice except that crappy mono.
Tomorrow I will be able to put the plane back together then start thinking about the trim design.

hsukaria

Ah!! The joys of retirement!! Work on the plane for a while, take a nap, then go back and read a book.

I got up in the morning and sent off the older kids to school, then drove the youngest to school. Then worked all day, go back home, rake the leaves, take out the trash, help the kids with their homework, and then, maybe, I might get a little time to work on my planes.

Now you know why I have ARFs or buy kit-built planes used and repair them.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

I don't have the hart to tell him the full story about being retired.

hsukaria

Ok, maybe I said it in a wrong way. But my point really was that I would love to be building such nice planes like you guys do, but am limited to the ARFs and used kits because of time constraints.

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

In the days gone by when I was doing the same thing as you I was still building. Smaller kits in the 40 and 60 size were built in the living room during prime time, everything except sanding. I did that once and my wife really had a fit. I built on a folding table with a piece of pine as a building board over the top. Wasn't easy but it was how I relaxed at night and still kept up on the few shows I watched. At that time my daughter was old enough to know not to touch anything on my special table. It gets easier as time moves on and the kids don't want anything to do with you unless they need something, like money. Then you have time to build cars and bikes and play by yourself in your own private garage. I am also blessed with a very special wife that indulges me, read spoils!! She doesn't require all my time, as long as she knows where I am she is good with most anything I want to do. She is into NASCAR and Football. I'm in my shop during a race then come in for the last 10 laps, I'm never in during a day time football game but do get stuck on Monday nights. Some things just can't be avoided.
Tonight I should have been peeling Gorilla glue out of joints but I had to attend a small dinner party, another one of those can't avoid things.
The guys that know me personally know my background and understand how I got retired, something I would only wish on someone I really didn't like.

GerKonig

Yeah, getting old sucks, but think about the other option...:-)

I would like to have some words with the author of the term "golden years"...


Gerry

Gray Beard

My Feedback: (-1)

More like copper years. When your retired and it was done medically and not by choice it has way too many faults to be as much fun as you would like. Not to mention way too young. I do have a lot of free time on my hands though. My wife just retired last year so it's more enjoyable now.