Calrl Goldberg Tiger 60 Build
02-04-2018, 01:52 PM
#226
Vincent while your doing this things have come to my mind on an area of this plane that's being missed. I hope you don't mind if I elaborate a bit for those looking to get the most out of this fine airplane with a little work. Elevators and rudder gets the attention to improve performance back there,"BUT" what about the wings, yes you can improve performance there as well and make an even higher performing plane, not exactly 3-D but close. With the modifications Vincent is doing and adding some on the wings you will have a aerobatic trainer as well as a all around fun flier.
Aileron performance is generally weak while fine for general flying, strip ailerons are poor at best, more of a cheep way to reduce the work of building the wings, fact is those narrow strips are only effective out on the ends or the outer half, the inner half does little more than fill the trailing wing to the fuselage. Other words it gets prop wash for the most part and little control air.
Here's a way to improve this if your building this plane and doing the tail mods. Make the ailerons 1/2 the wing length and at least 2 &1/2" wide by moving the leading edge inward to obtain the 2 &1/2 width, the strip aileron can become part of it. Extend the ribs on the inner half or make some new ones, I put flaps on mine. You might want to add an extra rib on the inside and not put the wing tip on gaining the width back. Aileron runs all the way to the tip allowing 1/16" clearance to a SIDE FORCE GENERATOR glued or screwed to the wing tip as in the illustration. "WHAT" does it do ?, it directs turbulent air over the aileron for more control and force. Air is traveling laterally rearward across the wing and a large part of it is off the wing tip loosing the force on the aileron. Vince in your case the generator can be screwed to the tip, could be light-ply or 1/4" firm balsa. It's something so simple and works so well, 3-D fliers use them a lot. Some of these generators are broader, many foamies are getting them. Picture is how mine are made and they really work.
If your going to modify this bird you might as well go all the way.
Aileron performance is generally weak while fine for general flying, strip ailerons are poor at best, more of a cheep way to reduce the work of building the wings, fact is those narrow strips are only effective out on the ends or the outer half, the inner half does little more than fill the trailing wing to the fuselage. Other words it gets prop wash for the most part and little control air.
Here's a way to improve this if your building this plane and doing the tail mods. Make the ailerons 1/2 the wing length and at least 2 &1/2" wide by moving the leading edge inward to obtain the 2 &1/2 width, the strip aileron can become part of it. Extend the ribs on the inner half or make some new ones, I put flaps on mine. You might want to add an extra rib on the inside and not put the wing tip on gaining the width back. Aileron runs all the way to the tip allowing 1/16" clearance to a SIDE FORCE GENERATOR glued or screwed to the wing tip as in the illustration. "WHAT" does it do ?, it directs turbulent air over the aileron for more control and force. Air is traveling laterally rearward across the wing and a large part of it is off the wing tip loosing the force on the aileron. Vince in your case the generator can be screwed to the tip, could be light-ply or 1/4" firm balsa. It's something so simple and works so well, 3-D fliers use them a lot. Some of these generators are broader, many foamies are getting them. Picture is how mine are made and they really work.
If your going to modify this bird you might as well go all the way.
02-04-2018, 02:09 PM
#227
Good idea on pinning the dowel, I just may add a few toothpicks for good measure... I do plan on drilling everything to rid the Tiger from unnecessary weight, once the initial build is done. Once I locate the control horn points, I will add a hard point (hardwood dowel) to that location as well. I think I am going to add a balance tab to the rudder. Weren't you going to do that Leroy?
, I think I have an extra metal gear servo here to consider.
02-04-2018, 07:24 PM
#228
Vince, I like the idea of laminating your elevators but I think I might have gone one step further. I'm thinking that by laminating three 1/8th plies with the middle running cross-grain to the top and bottom, making it more like plywood, this would have increased the strength of the surface as a whole, other than where the center ply was exposed. Any thoughts on that?
02-05-2018, 03:53 AM
#229
Thread Starter
Hydro, yes you're right about three lamination's being better than two, and alternating the grain direction would make it even better. However in selecting my 3/16" sheeting, I had selected some pretty rock hard balsa which served this purpose perfectly utilizing only two laminations. If the balsa were softer, then I would have opted for three. In any case, the lesson here to be taken away is that laminating can make your build straighter and stronger over the life of the air-frame.
As we become better more proficient builders, we can appreciate the opportunity to hand select wood (balsa) that's used for our projects. We can select balsa that is more pliable or stiff, we can choose balsa that is lighter or heavier for given applications. These are some of the reasons I always prefer to hand select balsa for my projects... BTW, did you know that Balsa is classified as a hardwood. Balsa is the softest of all hardwoods!
As we become better more proficient builders, we can appreciate the opportunity to hand select wood (balsa) that's used for our projects. We can select balsa that is more pliable or stiff, we can choose balsa that is lighter or heavier for given applications. These are some of the reasons I always prefer to hand select balsa for my projects... BTW, did you know that Balsa is classified as a hardwood. Balsa is the softest of all hardwoods!
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-05-2018 at 09:43 AM.
02-05-2018, 03:59 AM
#230
Thread Starter
Leroy, I had put some thought into building side force generators for this Tiger,but I decided for the more traditional look of the old style wingtips which I have already installed. I don't do much 3-D stuff, I'll leave that to younger more proficient flyers than I could ever become. Thanks for posting your thoughts along with the picture though, it may help others with their decision to install them or not.
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-05-2018 at 06:04 AM.
02-05-2018, 08:43 AM
#232
Hydro, yes you're right about three lamination's being better than two, and alternating the grain direction would make it even better. However in selecting my 3/16" sheeting, I had selected some pretty rock hard balsa which served this purpose perfectly utilizing only two laminations. If the balsa were softer, then I would have opted for three. In any case, the lesson here to be taken away is that laminating can make your build straighter and stronger over the life of the air-frame.
As we become better more proficient builders, we can appreciate the opportunity to hand select wood (balsa) that's used for our projects. We can select balsa that is more pliable or stiff, we can choose balsa that is lighter or heavier for our given applications. These are some of the reasons I always prefer to hand select balsa for my projects... BTW, did you know that Balsa is classified as a hardwood. Balsa is the softest of all hardwoods!
As we become better more proficient builders, we can appreciate the opportunity to hand select wood (balsa) that's used for our projects. We can select balsa that is more pliable or stiff, we can choose balsa that is lighter or heavier for our given applications. These are some of the reasons I always prefer to hand select balsa for my projects... BTW, did you know that Balsa is classified as a hardwood. Balsa is the softest of all hardwoods!
02-05-2018, 03:10 PM
#233
Thread Starter
Other than a bit of sanding and wrapping the joiner with some glass cloth, I think it's time to start on the Fin and Rudder...
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-06-2018 at 07:29 AM.
02-06-2018, 04:06 PM
#236
Thread Starter
With an impending storm heading my way, school has already been cancelled based on the 10+ inches of snow that's predicted. My plans for tomorrow are to keep the wood stove in my home going and spend the whole day in my shop!
To prepare for tomorrow's build-a-thon, I decided to get things prepared tonight that I will need. I spent time modifying the original plans, once again I relied on Leroy's modifications, then added a few changes of my own. As to not confuse the original drawn lines from my changes, I decided that it would be best to highlight those areas. Next, I laminated two 3/16" balsa sheets that I used for the elevator stock, this will go at the base of the rudder.
Well, that's a wrap for tonight! I'll see you all in the morning...
To prepare for tomorrow's build-a-thon, I decided to get things prepared tonight that I will need. I spent time modifying the original plans, once again I relied on Leroy's modifications, then added a few changes of my own. As to not confuse the original drawn lines from my changes, I decided that it would be best to highlight those areas. Next, I laminated two 3/16" balsa sheets that I used for the elevator stock, this will go at the base of the rudder.
Well, that's a wrap for tonight! I'll see you all in the morning...
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-07-2018 at 01:45 AM.
02-07-2018, 09:17 AM
#238
Thread Starter
While outside it's snowing to beat the band, I've been happily busy in my workshop.
The rudder has been completed and I''m off to start on the vertical stabilizer right after lunch.
The rudder has been completed and I''m off to start on the vertical stabilizer right after lunch.
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-07-2018 at 09:20 AM.
02-07-2018, 10:31 AM
#239
I heard about your impending storm on the news last night, you guys seam to get a winter pounding more often than not these days, part of your history I guess. Lucky us, our snow is gone and nothing in the future forecast but 40's and 50's, might get to 60, "yeah".
Hey Vince, you get a chance to burn the midnight wood and glue up some balsa and there's not much of that left. I'm not going to ask you if you have a scheme yet., something else to think about. I hope your thinking about a cowl for it, I know you can make one. If I can make one for my super cub, you surely can make the tiger one.
Leroy
Hey Vince, you get a chance to burn the midnight wood and glue up some balsa and there's not much of that left. I'm not going to ask you if you have a scheme yet.
, something else to think about. I hope your thinking about a cowl for it, I know you can make one. If I can make one for my super cub, you surely can make the tiger one.Leroy
02-07-2018, 12:30 PM
#241
Thread Starter
Thanks Mike.
Leroy, not much wood is left, you're right. I've been looking at a lot of planes on the internet so I could get inspired as to what I want on my Tiger. I have a few ideas... Yes I'll be starting on my cowl just as soon as the coverings done, that way if the cowl isn't completed by Spring I can still fly it. I'll have to pick your brain when the time comes.
Leroy, not much wood is left, you're right. I've been looking at a lot of planes on the internet so I could get inspired as to what I want on my Tiger. I have a few ideas... Yes I'll be starting on my cowl just as soon as the coverings done, that way if the cowl isn't completed by Spring I can still fly it. I'll have to pick your brain when the time comes.
02-08-2018, 03:36 PM
#242
Thread Starter
I'm using a carbon fiber tail wheel assembly, the tiller arm will be attached to the base of the rudder pivoting the tail wheel. No springs to deal with, simple, light and effective!
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-08-2018 at 03:39 PM.
02-08-2018, 03:58 PM
#243
02-09-2018, 06:05 AM
#244
Thread Starter
Thanks Tom, the construction phase of this project is almost completed. There are a few items that still need attending to, but I see mucho sanding in my future to ready this bird for covering...
Tonight I plan on finishing off the vertical stabilizer and get the hinges for the rudder installed. This tail will feature a removable rudder, I'll have pictures showing how I accomplish this...
Tonight I plan on finishing off the vertical stabilizer and get the hinges for the rudder installed. This tail will feature a removable rudder, I'll have pictures showing how I accomplish this...
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-09-2018 at 06:17 AM.
02-09-2018, 12:48 PM
#245
Work work work Vincent, make good use of the weather. A removable rudder, that's a first for me, BTW, what do you have for a plane tote to the field, I suspect it's not a 1972 VW Beetle, but it would work,
Tail wheels, there are all kinds of them, the Sullivan is another good choice for planes this size, steering arm fits in a tube on the rudder and has an attached spring on the arm that allows the wheel to turn further than the rudder which it often needs to do when turning around.
I almost forgot about all the sanding, your mods create plenty of that so have fun. Vince do you seal the wood for better covering adhesion when you use Ultra-cote. Fun stuff is coming up, "yeah".
Leroy
Tail wheels, there are all kinds of them, the Sullivan is another good choice for planes this size, steering arm fits in a tube on the rudder and has an attached spring on the arm that allows the wheel to turn further than the rudder which it often needs to do when turning around.
I almost forgot about all the sanding, your mods create plenty of that so have fun. Vince do you seal the wood for better covering adhesion when you use Ultra-cote. Fun stuff is coming up, "yeah".
Leroy
02-09-2018, 04:32 PM
#246
Thread Starter
I have a pick-up truck (GMC Sierra) to tote my planes Leroy. ( In my college days I used to have a '72 VW Bug, loved that car, wish I had it back!) LOL I like the set-up you used for your tail wheel, I guess we were thinking along the same lines...
I haven't in the past sealed the wood before using plastic covering, are there any advantages to applying a sealer? What product would you recommend? I believe that I've read that Tom C. sprays his wood with hair spray for better adhesion, correct me if I'm wrong Tom...
The vertical stabilizer has been completed and the rudder has been hinged as well. I opted for a removable rudder for a few reasons; one being if the rudder should ever get damaged in the future it can easily be removed and replaced simply by pulling one pin. Second, removing the rudder could make transporting your plane a bit easier, especially if you don't have enough space in your vehicle. But to be honest, I did it just because I could. I tried to incorporate a lot of features in this build that you would find on much larger scale high end air-frames.
I simply bought flat hinges that came with removable brass cotter pins, I discarded the cotter pins and substituted them with one long hinge pin that runs the full length of the vertical stabilizer's trailing edge. The pin is simply a length of piano wire that can be found at most any hobby shop. The top of the pin will be bent in an "L" shape to follow the top of the rudder. Once completed, I will have more photos that will illustrate what I'm talking about.
I haven't in the past sealed the wood before using plastic covering, are there any advantages to applying a sealer? What product would you recommend? I believe that I've read that Tom C. sprays his wood with hair spray for better adhesion, correct me if I'm wrong Tom...
The vertical stabilizer has been completed and the rudder has been hinged as well. I opted for a removable rudder for a few reasons; one being if the rudder should ever get damaged in the future it can easily be removed and replaced simply by pulling one pin. Second, removing the rudder could make transporting your plane a bit easier, especially if you don't have enough space in your vehicle. But to be honest, I did it just because I could. I tried to incorporate a lot of features in this build that you would find on much larger scale high end air-frames.
I simply bought flat hinges that came with removable brass cotter pins, I discarded the cotter pins and substituted them with one long hinge pin that runs the full length of the vertical stabilizer's trailing edge. The pin is simply a length of piano wire that can be found at most any hobby shop. The top of the pin will be bent in an "L" shape to follow the top of the rudder. Once completed, I will have more photos that will illustrate what I'm talking about.
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-10-2018 at 02:37 AM.
02-10-2018, 03:54 AM
#247
[QUOTE=VincentJ;12404931
I haven't in the past sealed the wood before using plastic covering, are there any advantages to applying a sealer? What product would you recommend? I believe that I've read that Tom C. sprays his wood with hair spray for better adhesion, correct me if I'm wrong Tom...
.[/QUOTE]
I use Aqua Net, spraying it like I would when using aerosol cans.
The recent round of storms has missed us, going to the south. I haven't used my snow blower in a week.
I haven't in the past sealed the wood before using plastic covering, are there any advantages to applying a sealer? What product would you recommend? I believe that I've read that Tom C. sprays his wood with hair spray for better adhesion, correct me if I'm wrong Tom...
.[/QUOTE]
I use Aqua Net, spraying it like I would when using aerosol cans.
The recent round of storms has missed us, going to the south. I haven't used my snow blower in a week.
Last edited by TomCrump; 02-10-2018 at 03:56 AM.
02-10-2018, 09:48 AM
#248
Well Vince you explained a thing or two and I have a lot of those hinges but have never used them. I have a full size Suburban with a removable platform that slides in and out, planes are secured to it so nothing gets damaged, it also has a PVC rack that attaches to it for smaller planes. I also owned one of those Bugs back in 72, took forever to warm up in the winter.
Unlike Solartex that you don't seal the wood for, Ultra-cote does not stick well to raw wood, I don't use hair spray because it has water in it. Plane hardware rattle can lacquer or lacquer sanding sealer will work fine and hardly weights anything, lightly sand and vacuum ( I use a soft round brush on the end of my hose) air alone will leave a dry film and a cloth will leave lint. I'm fussy but my covering really sticks and stays that way.
Leroy
Unlike Solartex that you don't seal the wood for, Ultra-cote does not stick well to raw wood, I don't use hair spray because it has water in it. Plane hardware rattle can lacquer or lacquer sanding sealer will work fine and hardly weights anything, lightly sand and vacuum ( I use a soft round brush on the end of my hose) air alone will leave a dry film and a cloth will leave lint. I'm fussy but my covering really sticks and stays that way.
Leroy
02-10-2018, 10:23 AM
#249
Tail wheels can be a challenge on some airplanes. I ran into that with my LT-40. The rudder sits on top of the H-stabilizer. I had to fabricate my own assembly. I have a few airplanes that were given to me. They have removable control surfaces. I haven't had time to mess with those airplanes yet. Build looking good. Still following along.
02-11-2018, 01:52 PM
#250
Thread Starter
Thanks for the tip Leroy!
Tom, consider yourself lucky, My snowblower is being used quite regularly. LOL
I want to share a story that I hope may save some of you grief and heartache. Last summer, after taking a couple of years off from flying, I decided that I really needed to get back into the saddle so I readied my beloved Spacewalker for flight. I checked all the nuts and bolts for tightness, bought fresh batteries, etc. Came the day to fly, the weather was perfect. I was so excited to be at the field with a plane that I built, just moments from flight.
The engine started quickly and it wasn't long before my Spacewalker was once again airborne. I greased the first landing and I couldn't refuel fast enough to get back up in the air. Shortly after take off my engine deadsticked, I thought this strange as my engine has always been reliable. I wasn't worried, the field was large, and my Spacewalker floats well. In making the final turn to get myself in good position to land I suddenly had nothing, moving the sticks did absolutely nothing! All I could do at that point was to watch my Spacewalker nosedive right into the ground....I was at a loss for words, what the hell just happened? I was so disgusted, I picked up what was left of her and put her in the bed of my pick-up. It's been sitting in my basement covered, as I couldn't even bear to look at it.
Fast forward to today, I needed two servos for my Tiger so I thought that I would use the ones from my Spacewalker. Removing the servos showed me why I had lost communication with my Spacewalker. Look at Photo #1, do you see the twisted wires with one of them chewed through? Now look at a closer shot in Photo #2 and you will see where that wire went, my receiver! God how I hate mice.
Guys check your airframes well, don't let this happen to you. This mouse had chewed just the right wire and it was beneath my servo mounting tray which went undetected by myself...
Tom, consider yourself lucky, My snowblower is being used quite regularly. LOL
I want to share a story that I hope may save some of you grief and heartache. Last summer, after taking a couple of years off from flying, I decided that I really needed to get back into the saddle so I readied my beloved Spacewalker for flight. I checked all the nuts and bolts for tightness, bought fresh batteries, etc. Came the day to fly, the weather was perfect. I was so excited to be at the field with a plane that I built, just moments from flight.
The engine started quickly and it wasn't long before my Spacewalker was once again airborne. I greased the first landing and I couldn't refuel fast enough to get back up in the air. Shortly after take off my engine deadsticked, I thought this strange as my engine has always been reliable. I wasn't worried, the field was large, and my Spacewalker floats well. In making the final turn to get myself in good position to land I suddenly had nothing, moving the sticks did absolutely nothing! All I could do at that point was to watch my Spacewalker nosedive right into the ground....I was at a loss for words, what the hell just happened? I was so disgusted, I picked up what was left of her and put her in the bed of my pick-up. It's been sitting in my basement covered, as I couldn't even bear to look at it.
Fast forward to today, I needed two servos for my Tiger so I thought that I would use the ones from my Spacewalker. Removing the servos showed me why I had lost communication with my Spacewalker. Look at Photo #1, do you see the twisted wires with one of them chewed through? Now look at a closer shot in Photo #2 and you will see where that wire went, my receiver! God how I hate mice.
Guys check your airframes well, don't let this happen to you. This mouse had chewed just the right wire and it was beneath my servo mounting tray which went undetected by myself...
Last edited by VincentJ; 02-12-2018 at 03:47 AM.