I still don't think building has gone away. Some of it is just hidden in the hoopla over how good todays ARFs are, and some of it is unrecognized by the amount of work and the newer materials and techniques in what are actually kits, not ARFs. And a couple ARFs I've put together had almopst as much building to do as simpler kits.

Based upon kit sales versus ARF sales, kit building has been in decline for a number of years, and isn't slowing.

Too simple.

From what I have observed of ARF consumers (I'm a builder so have only secondhand knowledge), they "go through" aircraft much faster than builders. I don't know if this is because ARF availability encourages them to buy beyond their skill level or, if the ARFs themself have a built-in expiry as a result of poor fuel-proofing, weak points in design that lead to early failure, or the owners have little sweat equity invested and simply tend to mistreat or not maintain them as a result ... from what I've observed, I suspect a combination of all of the above.

A better metric would be the availability of new kits (not old stock) and building supplies, this has definitely declined.

At the LHS, the racks of materials, tools and kits have been replaced by the larger full colour printed ARF boxes.
Mail order, the new LHS , is not advertising or selling many of these same materials either.

The problem with the ARFs is that you do not get "attached" to them at all, hence you replace them very easily and go on to the next one very quickly. It doesn't happen with models you built yourself.
After 30 years of mostly building from plans, I purchased an ARF just for some sport flying and out of curiosity.
I bought a VMAR ESCAPE. It was good value for money, well built, and after 6 months and close to 80-85 flights I sold it to a fellow club member and at a very good price too. I sold it without blinking an eye. I would not have parted so easily from a scratchbuilt model.
I guess it filled its purpose and when I got "fed up" with it I just got rid of it.
I never got fed up with a model I built myself.
I decided that to have one ARF in the stable is OK, but would never convert to these models.
I don't even like the newer kits - they are like "Lego" in my opinion. I look for and purchase out-of-production kits when ever I can find one. Latest project was an Aeronca Champ from the Precedent kit, current one is the SIG 1/4 scale CW Cub, and next are the SIG Liberty Sport and old British Veron Tomtit bipe. I really enjoyed cutting the printed parts in the SIG kit, far more than "assembling" the ARF.
People in my club, especially the new commers, start with ARFs but get very interested in building a model themselves very soon. So maybe kits will not disappear, but I admit that when there's a kit I really like I buy it and store it in case in a few years I will not be able to find one. I dream of getting back to scratchbuilding, but do not have enough spare time right now.
What I would love to see is manufacturers re-introduce some old kits, e.g. the SIG Yak, Sterling Stearman, and such...probably will not happen.

I've never had an ARF myself.. I started flying in 85 when a friend gave me a Fledgling wing, a roll of plans and an OS .35..
I ordered the wood and built a new fuselage. That plane got me through all my training. I still have that wing, motor and plans.. I hope someday I can pass them on to another new pilot.

I cna see the attraction of ARF's to new pilots.. It's a well built plane that you can get started with quickly..
I knew more than a few people back then that never got past the building stage or finished the plane but never had the guts to fly their new baby so now it hangs in the garage like some wierd trophy.

I don't think ARF's will go away.. Fact is I think you'll see more trainer planes turn ARF only..
There are several trainers on the market that have droped the kit version completly..
Then there are classic planes like the the Goldberg Skylark that I'd love to have but are only avaliable in ARF form.

IMHO where you'll see if the kits survive is the more advanced planes people want after they outgrow the trainers..

ARF's won't die but we'll always have kit's too..

What I'd like to see is the manufactures off a way to buy plans for older discontinued kits.
They don't even have to keep them in stock.. make a deal with whatever printing company is printing the current plans to print and ship plans from a Database.

Now her'es a question.. I've never had an ARF so I don't know..

Do ARF's come with plans? something good enough to scratch build from if I had fix one? Or are you stuck buying parts from the builder?

Ok there's one things about new kits that bugs me.. The plans..
I had a Goldberg Falcon 56.. I loved it and I could build the things from the plans if I had to..

Now the new Falcon III I just recieved is a different story.. I'm not sure the plans show all the parts..
I know where they go but there are several pieces trhey didn't include templates for.

If I kill it I'm stuck buying parts from Goldberg.. Even the new kits are becoming ARFish..

Most of the ARFs I've had only had an instruction pamphlet with maybe some drawings to explain things. Sig does, or a couple years ago did, offer plans for some of their older planes. Their catalogue marked the ones that had full size patterns marked with an asterisk. Maybe others do as well.
If you have a kit, and think you might want to scratch build another one later, just trace the parts onto paper and save with the plans. If you have a copy center like Kinkos near you, you might even have a copy of the plans made so you can keep a clean and intact set for future reference, while still having a set that can get torn up during the building process.
There are huge numbers of plans available for planes that were never kitted. About all the magazines have most of the plans they've published over their history. They sell them by E or snail mail. There are also many companies selling reproductions of previously published plans that aren't currently available. Bill Northrup Plan Service, advertised in MA or Flying Models is a good source.
If you have enough experience building kits, and maybe a couple plan built models under your belt, the English publications AMI, FSM, and Model World often have free full size plans included in each issue, but not always every month. If you find some of the old Flying Models magazines at a swap shop or such, they had at least one plan set usually at 1/4 scale, along with full size printed parts templates. You could pretty easily draw up the larger parts either on to paper, or directly onto the wood. I had excellent luck with the half dozen or so of these I've built over the years, even when I was in jr. high.
If you have any interest in the work goes into building, you do not have to be restricted to the "Everyone has one of those" syndrome.

i live in Virginia,and the two hobby shops we have around this immediate area don't have hardly any kits in stock,in fact the ones they do have,have been the same ones they had on the shelves for a few years.you cant hardly build a kit for what an arf costs.but IMO you cant get the same quality out of an arf as you can one of your kit's( baby's).most vendors carry the kits and can be ordered through the mail.i look in the hobby shops and to me it seems to be an indication of the way kit building has been going for the past few years.i hope they will always be available,i enjoy building.my 8 year old daughter has shown an interest in kit building and has helped me on a lot of our projects.just that fact alone is enough for me to keep trying to find the kits and building,plus i enjoy the therapy and sense of satisfaction i get out of it.

I would also like to see kits stay around. I enjoy working with my hands and the time in the shop is therapy. My daughters (10 and 7 years old) were encouraging me to get another kit for this winter. They said my balsa scrap box was running out of material for their "build along" projects! They (read: we) enjoy spending time together in the shop, building. They have designed and built some of the most creative airplanes I have ever seen!!

I would have to work for about 2 cents an hour to make my kit builds economically competitive with an ARF (and get the material for free). I gladly spend more money for a kit build, and my time invested is worth more than money. I really like some of the ARF models out there, sure wish I could build one. If only I could get a kit...

Oly

I agree. Time spent building in the shop is like therapy. After a day at the office using my "head", I really find it unwinding to work with my hands. It's the same satisfaction I get from playing the piano as well. It accesses a different part of the brain and balances out all the "brainwork".

-tychoc

[quote]ORIGINAL:


You're absolutely right. I'll get it built and have ball with it. Actually since I built and flew the 4* I have maidened 3 or 4 planes since then.

Definitely coming back....at least thats the way it sounds if you read the ARF / RTF forum......LOL. I was just browsing there and guys are "building" one ARF after another. I also read a review of Kanges' new Waco. The reviewer said it is for a more experienced "builder" and that the instructions were a little lacking. He also said that field set up was a bit more involved than he would like........GIMME A BREAK. Pretty soon guys are going to want the manufacturer to show up at the field with the plane fueled and ready to go.....just hand me the transmitter.

I definitely think building is on the decline. If I hear or read one more time about an ARF that someone "built"....I may just barf on the spot. The use of the words build or modeling in the same sentence as ARF just goes right through me. Such a disservice to all builders and especially the very good ones.

Okay....I am not bashing ARFS....I have several and like them but I definitely did not BUILD Them. I glued on the stab. and fin and put in my radio and engine

It's not BUILDING it is ASSEMBLING. I have one, and when I went to assemble it, my biggest concern was whether I should change out of my office clothes or whether I could control the epoxy enough to keep it from dripping on my pants.

When I build, I have my building cloths on. They've got holes burned in them, hard epoxy spots, slivers of balsa and dust permenently adhered, CA spots (probably a little skin here and there on the back side), paint, dope, fiberglass....

Saying that you "Built an ARF" is like looking at your Chevy Impala with your neighbor after putting on the bra and fog lights and saying "Yeap, I built 'er myself!".

Of course, if you take the ARF parts and customize them, can you claim to have at least done some building? Things like stripping and replacing the covering, building and installing new control surfaces, changing the basic outlines, maybe even adding glue where the manufacturer didn't?

The one thing that I should say that in regard to building kits, a person really has to think about what the initial cost is for doing the building itself. I mean, when I started with my ARF, I had a basic tool kit, but then after my first crash, I had to start getting a "few things here, and few things there" to do the repairs on it. Don't get me wrong, I like getting new gadgets but pretty soon, my better half is going to want an accounting of what I've got.

An ARF only needs a few basic things and a working knowledge of basic woodcraft, which some folks may not be able to catch on to. I mean, with the way some schools are today, there aren't too many students learning the wood or metal shop basics, like I was back in the day. Also, in todays world, some folks just don't have the time to sit down and build something like they did in the 50's & 60's. I remember my Dad making things around the house, but he didn't have to work more than one job to keep a roof over our head and food on the table. He also made plastic models with me when he wasn't working.

With kits, you still have to be able to measure and read directions (which some youngsters can't do, thank you public school systems), let alone set some time aside away from the family to punch out the parts from the sheets and put them together. This is pretty easy and you can still say that you "Built it Yourself". Just remember to use a different color scheme than what's on the box.

And if you want to move on to scratchbuilding, you have to seriously think about investing in some bigger power tools than your everyday jigsaw and dremel tool. I can say one thing, scratchbuilding has been a great way to meet and interact with my retired neighbor who has a full wood shop in his basement. He shows me his projects and I show him mine. He doesn't do too much building anymore due to failing eyesight, but he is more than willing to let me use his drill press and bandsaw and other tools. The way his wife talks, he can't talk about anything else for at least an hour after we're done cutting pieces for my plane. He even keeps an eye out for things I may be able to use when he goes shopping at the local hardware store or the local junkyard (he brought back a huge bundle of balsa wood someone had gotten rid of, that I'm still using).

I just think that it's a question of a perceived initial cost in both time and money that's keeping some folks away from the Kits or scratchbuilds. When speaking to people at a recent community function where my Club was invited, one of the first things asked was "How much does it cost to fly one of these?", that raised some eyebrows, especially when it was a child asking with the parent standing behind them. They'll pour bundles of cash into sports programs, but nothing into something like our hobby.

Anyhow, I'll shut up for now. Hope I didn't go off on too much of a tangent.

Don

Arf Bashing?

If people think we are expensive, think of Hi power sport model rocketry. Almost $2000 just to get started with NAR, Tripoli, licensing, certified storage for motors and reloads, possible local and state fees for storing the motors. Then a one time huge cost for the larger M, N, O motors or reloads for a one time use.

Sorry for the interuption, we had a momentary system crash. There seems to be a major decline in this country, if not also other parts of the world, interest in anything that requires effort or learning. Building and flying well definitely requires both. Some of the large number of newbies seem to come in through the ARF route, learn to fly quickly, then leave in maybe two or three years. To progress beyond that point requires more effort and learning, so the're gone! And from what I've seen of a lot of kids, they just get dropped off by parents who are just looking for free babysitting while they run off to do something more important than actively raising their own kids. Too many of these kids have some interest, until they realize their parents are pretty much abandoning them and rarely will take the time at home to do more than a How'ed things go today? - - That's nice. Then no other real support or help for the kids. The ones who eventually make a break into the building side seem to stay longer and become even better flyers.

JUST TO CLARIFY.....the point I was trying to make in my previous post was that ARF'S are not built and I hate to see reviews or discussions where it is reffered to in those terms. I know it is just a word and not used in a bragging manner but now a days you can just shell out a few bucks and have a beautiful plane. I have been in this hobby long enough (20 years) to have witnessed the transition from all of us being RC modelers, to the current mostly RC flyers and a few RC modelers.

I am not bashing ARF's (they are good and here to stay) but just want to keep alive the awareness that there are a lot of excellent builders out there who can create some beautiful "one of a kind every day flyers". Besides that, it can actually be enjoyable and therapeutic to work with your hands to create something.......

Agreed. If there weren't as many builders as there are out there, the Toledo show would be having trouble filling in their displays with the quality of models they do now. ARFs are pretty well limited by how much detail and quality can be obtained for the price.

Building brings on inovation which was the reason why we had a chicken in every pot not being paid for on credit cards years ago. Imagination is the thing you guys are talking about that is being stripped in every sector of our country.If somebody does not have the time to build one kit over a long winter half hour a night maybe, and wants to, you should change your life style.Life is to short!! kelldog

Speaking of building,do the instuctions on the telemaster 40- seem a little lite? I am reading them for the fuse and they seem missing in some places.I am begining to think I should have bought another LT-40 and did a little bashing.Just opened the telemaster and boy the box seems empty compared to a sig.

I built my first plane, and I'll build my last one too. ( Does anyone else besides me remember when a Falcon 56 flew just fine on a .29, and model airplanes actually flew on their wings instead of on a massive overabundance on non scale thrust?) I do like ARF trainers though, mostly because I just can't stand the thought of building a typical box trainer.
I'm really not into kits, one reason being that nowdays, a lot of them are strictly designed to be assembled with CA glue, which I don't, and won't use, because I consider it to be an extreme health risk, even worse than using dope in a closed room. Another reason is that most of what grabs my attention as far as model airplanes isn't and most likely never will be, kitted or ARF'd by anyone. another reason is that the look on peoples faces when they ask "what kit is that"? and you tell them it ain't a kit, I scratchbuilt it, is just priceless, and getting more priceless every day.
This " I don't have time to build" stuff to me is nonsense. I found time to build when I was working 13 hr days and raising kids, and my day had 24 hrs in it just like anyone elses. If you don't like to build , that's fine too, but that's the difference between a flyer and a modeler.

At least half the fun of this hobby is building. In my case probably 75 percent of it. When they quit selling balsa and plywood and music wire, it'll be time to move on to another hobby.

To me, buying an ARF is like marrying a pregnant woman so you don't have to go throught the trouble of getting her that way. The end "product" might be just fine, but I can't imagine anyone who's tried the "do it yourself" method ever going back!

I remember people flying the Falcon 56s on as small as 15s with rudder only.

Two weeks ago, for nostalgia's sake, I spent $20 on a new in the box Falcon 56 kit, no postal zip on the box. Not only was it probably the worst wood I ever saw in a Carl Goldberg kit, it made any Sterling kit wood I ever saw look exquisite. Instead of building it, I may just put it up on E-bay. Might clear 80 to 100 on it that way.

Yes, building is A thing of the past and the ARF is hear to stay. The good thing for me is I am now getting more ARF guys paying me to build A kit for them or assemble there new ARF. As long as they keep some nice planes as kit only I will still be building them for someone. My own planes are built from plans though and are always something different then you ever see at most clubs. I did buy one second hand ARF and it's A nice plane and I enjoy it, I don't think I would buy another one though unless the deal was too hot to pass on. There is just something lacking in them.