Ok I have had lots of experience in building both kits and scratch built from plans. I recently have bought two ARF's. Both from Hanger 9. I really enjoyed just putting these ARF's together and flying. Now it is getting cold and have always turned to building during the winter instead of flying. Now I have a dilemma. I am looking to get a Bi-plane and have decided on the Goldberg Ultimate 10 300. I am planning on putting an O.S. 1.20 AX in it for power along with Futaba 9001 servos. The question is this.....go for the kit and take my time building all winter or go with the ARF which is already to put the finishing touches on and fly. Part two is which has better materials...the kit or the ARF? Most ARF's I have seen lately are making use of better building techniques and materials. For instance the ARF's are using 1/16 thin Finland Birch Plywood for fuses where as most kits are using 3/32 or thicker balsa. Obviously the plywood is much stronger. Also making use of thin ply for formers as well. Also most of the ARF parts are laser cut which is much more precise and clean as compared to stamped balsa or Italian poplar light plywood. So let's hear your thoughts and ideas here. I would love to see kits come with the same quality parts that ARF's are being built with.

To Build the Ultimate or not to build the Ultimate and go with the ARF??????? Which shall it be????

I've seen both fly from the same pilot and he says the kit flys much better in his opinion....of course he did build the kit!

You are hereby banished from the Kit builder's assaciation. Get thee hence. I have a friend with both the kit, and the ARF. I have flown them both, and the kit flies better. It is not as twitchy as the BARF, and it tracks better on up lines, down lines and the knife edge is better. The BARF does tumbles better. Takes your pick.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Ok since you have seen both.....are they using the same materials on both? And if so what is it and if not what are the differences??? And are the pieces laser cut or stamped???

Build It !! What Else Are You Doing When The Snow Gets Deep ?? I have control and can modify As A see fit with my kit.
Here is one to throw some poop in the mix. I have seen folks buy the ARF (BARF [sm=lol.gif] ) take all the covering off and recover it the way they like.
I still say build.

my vote goes to build it..........as long as you keep us informed with lots of photos...he he he

Not the same materials. He used real glue on the one that he built, and UltraKote for the covering. I have no idea what Nguyen Swartz used when he covered the ARF. I did not see the planes in the bones, but knowing him, he would have removed all the burn from the parts prior to using them. He's a meticulous builder. I would think that the Kit would have a higher parts count than does the ARF. They normally eliminate a few formers, ribs and so on.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Same plane--kit or ARF. No question, BUILD IT!!

ESPECIALLY since winter is here and you won't be doing as much flying.

Build it!! A kit built plane will last longer and you can actually be proud of it. I'm not proud of my ARF's. They just fly and thats all. I'm VERY attached to my kits and I treat them with special care.

Hi waross,

I finished my CG 10/300 about six weeks ago. It was one of the easier builds I have undertaken so I put more effort into getting the covering and trim as defect free as I could.

The model flys superbly with a Saito 125A. I recommend you go with the kit. One tip the centre of gravity as per the plans is more than two inches forward of where mine is now and I'm still experimenting.

Cheers,

Colin

I will agree that the ARF are better and cheaper than most people can build themselves. But that isn't the point. Building is more fun than flying, that is the point and you can learn much more building.

more leaned toward "better" i don't think this is a true statement. a seasoned builder can easily equal the quality of any arf i've seen on thet market today. most can surpass the quality just by taking their time as most builders do anyway. i've only build 3 complete kits so far but i can tell my quality already surpasses the arfs that i've seen.

Build it! If you go ARF you'll have nothing to do those dark nights and you'll sit in front of the TV. I just ordered plans from BalsaUSA for their Phaeton 90 for my winter build.

Trouble is you don't know if yours is among the "most" until the firewall comes off and the prop eats your wing when you find a speed-bump on the runway. I always bash my kits in some way because there's always something I'd rather do different. Got very little say with ARF's. And they all look the same. [:'(] No individuality.

first off, where is the pole? and i'd say BUILD IT!

You will get bored with all your free time if you just assemble the ARF, so BUILD IT!!

Gibbs

waross,

BUILD IT! There are enough ugly ARFs in our neck of the woods.

papermache

Only you know if the desire to build a plane is there.
Right now I am in the kit building mode, but I can understand why so many people only want to own ARF's.
Of course this being the kit builders forum you are getting the build it blitz.
Many post here that their kit built plane is superior to the ARF, if that is really true good for them.
While I have seen works of art most of the time I see planes that wish they were built / covered as good as an ARF.
You know how you build them, and you also know how the ARF's are being built today.
I just saw a giant Aeromaster ARC, wow is the only thing I can say about it. The workmanship was outstanding, every joint was near perfect. If this was offered in a 60 size I might go for it myself.
The one thing that I really agree with that was previously stated in the thread is that i don't really "care" about the ARF's that I own, but I do care about the kit planes that I have built.
Only you know how you feel about that too, and sometimes i prefer to fly a plane that I don't really care about, its not that I want to crash it, but if it happens I don't feel personal loss.

Build half the kit, throw the other half away and scratch build that part. Build the wings and tail from the kit, pitch the lite-ply fuselage and build it right from spruce, balsa, and aircraft plywood. Make the fuselage twice as strong at half the weight.

Now that sounds like a plan. I don't care for the light Itailian poplar plywood. The 1.5 mm (1/16") finish birch would be much stronger. Just have to make some slight adjustments on the fuse and formers. But I can you the light ply side s for a pattern.

Ok I going for the kit with modifications.....I'll put pics up ass I go.

The answer lies in another question......DO YOU LIKE TO BUILD?? I still enjoy building and anything I build gets much more attention and care from me than any ARF I assemble. As stated previously in another post...the ARFs are simply for flying and improving my flying skills but I have no special connection with them. I do fly a lot and I am glad the ARF's exist in the number and quality they currently do for exactly that purpose. In my neck of the woods I see many more ARF'ers/flyers than modelers/builders. Soooo sad.....I think modelers (builders) are becoming extinct or at least endangered...[&o]

If you have both the ARF and the kit then why not build both? Your looking at about 6 months of winter so you should have plenty of time to do them. Get the ARF out of the way then take your time with the kit. If you don't have two engines simply swap the engine from the ARF to the kit when the time comes to mount the engine.
You can also order the replacement wood for the kit while the ARF is being assembled.
Come flying weather, you will have two planes to fly. If your not satisfied with the peformance of either of them simply send me the one you don't particularly like.
I'll gladly pay the shipping costs. LOL

Happy building and flying:


Tom

That's it in a nutshell. As long as I have a "fall-back" flyer I love to take my time and work on building as the mood hits me. To face a deadline or be grounded because none of the larger pieces fit together well enough to fly is like work. My most flown plane is an ARF that I bought while in a tight spot. And there's no doubt about it. ARF's have arrived to where they are darned good airframes. Some of the hardware can be of dubious quality, but they build 'em light and strong and the covering is better and more detailed than I care to mess with. The good news is that now I have an excuse to build ugly so everyone knows it's not an ARF.

Yeah, Charlie. With "ugly" you have a point there.
I had a question with the G.P. Easy Sport 40, which comes as an ARF or a kit. Which should I do? Build the kit which cost $40 less or simply buy the ARF, which cost $120? I LOVE to build, but considering the price difference, it's cheaper to just buy the ARF. Damn, why is the ARF so cheap? After adding the cost of the covering material and the hardware, wheels, etc. the kit costs more, plus, the ARF'S already built for you! A no brainer in this case. Why not buy the ARF if this plane turns you on, and build something else you can't get in an ARF? Something exotic, like you know, something that you can't even get in an ARF or a kit? I'm considering for my winter project, a 25-size, stick-built Fokker D VII. I can't find it anywhere in a kit for that size. I love that plane, and have a Saito 30 I can slip right in. A real authentic plane and smaller than you'll find. I guarantee you'll get lots of questions and interest from fellow modelers at your field AND have lots of fun building it on these cold nights (days) coming up. Just a suggestion.
Jackster

I did'nt know there was a Brotherhood of WACOs. Happy to here that. I have built the Pica Waco YMF-3/5 1/6th scale. Laser cut.
I was impressed with the maiden flight, ofcourse it is not an Ultimate. I was told one time that I should try the Ultimate first and then build the Waco. I chose the Waco and was and still is more than happy with its performance the kits on my opionion flys much better, I bought the cg Ultimate ARF, and all I get is problems to get it to fly the way I want it to fly. First it fluttered on its maiden flight, stripped two aileron servos. Not that there was much gap in the hinge line. It is a long story. Last thing that needs to be checked is the engine trust. Anybody had any kind of bugs with this ARF. I would appreciate any comments. Thanks.

The C OF G That is recommended for first test flight is at 2 inches bottom wing's root. The recommendations is from 2 to 3 inches as you progress and getting used to its flight characteristics. My ARF (ULTIMATE) is set at 2 inches. I needed to add some nose weight.
According to the first test flight first landing was very good. 4 flights, 4 good landings. But had experienced other problems. Mainly with servos.
Saito 120 ran flawless, also it was new.

waross, of course I say build it! BUT I think you should post the same question in the (B)ARF forum and see what the answers are ?? I assume there might be some bias in this forum, but just guessing.