ok

I was undecided weather to put this in the ARF section or here but since I like to build felt we builders should answer this question, I have seen recently where a few individuals have said OH the ARF is pretty pricey :spinnyeye go for the kit instead. I for one have found that if you really figure in all the cost associated with the construction of a kit. And I mean usually throwing away some of the hardware a kit supples you with, covering, tanks. wheels. engine mounts, and the list goes on and on. It is usually MORE expensive to build a kit to completion than to assemble and ARF. WHAT R ALL YOUR THOUGHTS???

The DIBO :drowning:

For the popular planes, I don't think there's any question that the kit can cost you more (but not much more), particularly if you include the cost of all your tools and all the extra parts you have lying around.

That means building is no longer a financial decision. It was nice when there was also a financial benefit, but builders love creating things with their own hands. Myself, I'd probably go weird if I had to go an entire winter without a project on the building board.

ARF vs Kit. Like flyers vs builders/flyers. The kit decision I think is not so much about money as preference. Yep, its more expensive to build i.e., tools, space, parts, trips to hobby shop, time, etc. I would not want an ARF for myself. I enjoy the building process and the satisfaction of flying what I built. Building is half the fun and pride of creating something to perfection.

Here here to the last posting . Exactly, it is pride in constructing something from a pile of sticks and seeing it fly into the air
( especially the first time excitment of it that we all know)

the DiBo

:sunsmiley

I like to build the kit for a little stress management. I get home from work and go into the garage and go to work. The days events are a million miles away.

The other reason is that I get to know my plane.

Some of the older designs can only be built as a kit from plans that you purchase. Kit building gives you experience for scratch building.

Instant gratification is the norm for our whole country today. Were raising a generation of blooming idiots when it comes to mechanical processes. They've taken shop out of the school system, we need to instill in our kids that somethings take time to accomplish and hard work is not going to kill them.

I understand that for some people, there is just no time to build a plane from a kit. And to those people I think the AFR's the answer. I would just like to see the companies let the consumers choose to buy the plane as a kit or ARF.

I too would prefer to build. As far as expense goes, you'll probably want to replace the hardware in an ARF too, In fact i think kits usually supply better hardware than ARF's do. Also while they may be comparable in price, with a kit, you can spread the expense out over several paychecks: Kit now, tank and wheels later, covering next, etc.

This discussion has been just about beat to death, and then some.

Build, if you truly enjoy building. Don't sneer at folks that bring ARFs to the field. Let them be and concentrate on enjoying your own RC hobby instead. This hobby is big enough to accomodate all of us.

Besides, why must we delineate so black and white between ARFers and builders? I, for one, do both. I like bashing an ARF as much as I enjoy bashing an kit. Either way, it's only a starting point to me. You can modify an ARF almost as easily as you can a kit.

Be happy that we have so many choices these days - ARF, ARC, kit, scratch build. I'm just old enough to remember how the "good ol' days" really were - and I don't miss 'em one bit.

There are benefits to both. I builb and fly ARF's so I can take my time designing and building my own designs in my leisure time without being pushed for something to fly.

Hey, this is a hobby....don't confuse the hobby with expenses..yes, kits will probably cost more in the long run, but who's counting? <g>

Jerry

Couldn't have said it more perfectly firefighter !

I have built many planes and I have also assembled ARFs. I try to build the planes that can not be purchased in an ARF Form. I usually try to build something unique. That said, I use to have a World Models Intruder ARF and it was a great old, pattern aircraft. I sometimes think I should have kept it. The good side is for about $200.00 I can purchase another Intruder that is brand new.

I just got my first few flights in on my second glow plane, a 4-star 40. I am a billion more times proud of my accomplishments and even smile every time I think of what I have done. My other plane is a Hobbico Superstar 40 trainer, Ready to fly. There's just no comparison to hard work spent over buying a whole plane.

I like to build, period. I have no problem with those who buy ARF's as that's what turns their crank but I love opening a box and seeing all those parts and consider it a challenge. Many moons ago I competed in Scalemasters but got away from it, now I am tired of building basically the same kind of plane, sport. I have decidded to go back to scale but not like I use to do. I saw the writing on the wall some years back and knew that it was going more and more towards ARF's so I started buying kits that I like and knew wouldn't be around later, and I now have about 30 so I am good till I cannot build anymore. I know I will never finish all of them but that's all right, at least I have them.

There's also no comparison when you see your hard work crash and having to re-kit ..........

Nobody mentioned the single biggest flaw with ARF's.....

NO PLANS

Since you have no plans you also have no easy way of making parts to repair an ARF.

This was the first thing that struck me after I got back into the hobby last year, after a 12 year break. I bought 2 ARF's and crashed the second one. After the crash I came to the inescapable conclusion that if I had a set of plans for the airplane I could have repaired it and had it back in the air in a couple of weeks worth of evenings.

Of course this pushed me back into the realm of kits and now I actually prefer to build.

I also really LOVE it when I go to the field and pull my models out of the truck and nobody else has one like them. In fact many of the "ARF'ers" usually have no idea what, or where, many of my airplanes came from since they don't see them on the shelf in a big pretty box at the LHS. (I like Sig's older kits like the Kougar, Kadet and Kavalier)

It's a shame really because todays kits really aren't that hard to build, compared to the kits of 20 years ago. Unfortunately when you talk to many new modellers that are assembling and flying ARF's they have the same ideas and misconceptions that many did back in the days before ARF's, that kits are just to hard to build and simply took to much time and required "black art" skills to finish. Nothing could be further from the truth, especially with todays lazer cut kits and a couple of bottles of CA glue in hand. In fact the worst part about building for most beginners, I have seen, is the process of covering. They want their new pride and joy to look perfect and usually get frustrated with their less than perfect first time results.

20 years ago "non-builder" types usually paid someone to build and finish out their models for them. Today we pay the chinese to do it for us rather than another club member.

I have found though that while ARF's are a great way to get started in the hobby today, most who get truly bitten by the R/C bug will eventually move over and give kits a try and many will stick with them once they do.

Either way this a great hobby with a lot of really great people in it and it matters not if your a builder or and ARF'er since we all have a great time doing what we do.

Double post

Yep, no plans....wonder if they (the mfg.) ever thought of making just an ARC version?

Jerry

When I bring some of my ARFs to the field, the guys still have no idea what they are. I routinely modify, and dare I say re-engineer, ARFs to suit my taste.

As for no plans to fix the plane, well, I didn't feel I needed the plans when I recently repaired two ARFs with slight to moderate damage. The first thing I do before I assemble an ARF is to trace the rib patterns, empenage outlines, and fuselage sides onto paper. Those are pretty much all I'd need for repairs. If the airplane is bashed up bad enough as to need the full-detailed drawn plans, buying a new ARF will probably be the more sensible thing to do.

I for one would like to see more planes manufactured in the ARC format. It gives you the opportunity to see the construction. To make any strengthening you think might be required, and lets you be creative in your choice of covering and colors. I think Dave Patric offers has a few and I know Model Teck did at one time. ( I covered a Great Lakes Bipe from them the building was exceptional)

The DiBo

Sorry, but I don't think you'll see that happen. ARC's never made much sense to me (and as the market showed, most builders). For most of us, covering is the hardest and most time consuming part of building. Why let the manufacturer do the really fun part, and leave the tedious part for the buyer? I can see the benefits you describe, but it seems the market didn't.

I too would like to see more ARCs, but the reality is that apparently most modeler don't care for this format. If the demand were strong, you bet the manufacturer would cater to it.

I also suspect that for the manufacturers, the costs of producing ARC and ARF are probably not that far apart. Most of the ARCs I see (giant scale planes not withstanding) don't save the buyer much vs. the ARF. Often the cost difference is less than the couple of rolls of covering it takes to cover it.

Since I'm an eternal optimist, I always try to look at it on the bright side instead of grumbling and griping about what could have been. To me, any ARF can be converted to an ARC in about 10minutes. I've done this to varying degrees to just about every ARF I bought recently. You'd be amazed at how a little rip & recovering job can transform the looks of an ARF. And if the ARF uses shelf paper covering, then I rip it all off. Like I mentioned above, even if they make an ARC version, it probably won't cost a whole lot less anyway, so I don't worry about the little added expense for the monocote.

I for one am a builder, and vote for building (rebuilding), i learned to fly about 19 years ago, when i was learning, i crashed so much that i had to get an Assembly line going, i remember rebuilding a plane 24 times, and it got pretty heavier, slowly quit crashing so much, but the assembly line kept going till i came to the conclusion, i'm running out of room,....when you build, you know the plane inside and out, paul.

I wonder if it occures to the manufactures that to sell a certain plane as a kit all you have to do is put the parts in a box, supply instructions and ship it.
The same plane they sell as a ARF is a kit at some point. Whether they put it together or not. Am I missing something?

I can only guess from the few clues that we've seen on the forum. My guess is that ARFs are not built at all like we build kits. I know ARFs aren't built on the plans, like kits are. I would guess that means that a lot of jigs are used, jigs that a kit builder wouldn't have. That means that a lot of ARFs just can't be made into a kit that the average modeler would have a chance of putting together successfully. As a result, I think you'll see more and more planes offered as ARF's, but not kits.

I could be wrong, these are just guesses. It may simply be that certain businessmen aren't into the kit business, which is their right.

My thoughts are

That ARFs are built exactly as we build them as far as the materials and parts are concerned. The reason that they are not offered is it boils down to dollars and cents, and marketing. OK I am making kits and sell them for a net profit of 25 dollars per unit. I find that I can go to a third world country and have that same kit assembled for a net profit ,when delieverd to the distributor and make 27.00, 2 dollars more. OK I am set up to make 100,000 units per year meaning 100,000 kits. OK I can increase my profits by $200,000 dollars if I can put them out in ARFS rather than kits HUMMMMMMMmm what will I do,, what will I do,,, Gee what a no Brain that is .I know we can move that many units per year, and I don't have the manufacturing capabilities to make more kits that that . So is really not much choice, the kit builders will not get them. The ARF assemblers will. this Might be over simplifying it but you get the picture.

The DIBO