MarkNovack

My Feedback: (3)

In answer to your title question, to get it right. The last ARF I purchased was the Chip Hyde Double Vision and that was probably the last ARF I will buy. So many lousy errors to correct and when all corrected it was still fat, overweight compromise. The only ARFs that I have had that did not needed modifying, correcting, strengthening, re-gluing or re-covering were from Kyosho and my ZNLine Madnesses. Tis a funny thing but on my builds the firewall never loosens up, covering never flies off in flight, the motor fits the way I want it to fit, and control geometry is right on the money with the hardpoints in the correct location. Perhaps I might still purchase a Kyosho airplane for something simple, but the ARFs that I do have and like I will simply copy and build them myself after they are pranged.

Alex7403

From my experiance, ARFs dont tend to fly too long, i belive that i build much better and invest love and good materials into my kit.

ARFs tend to come in white color which is not easy to spot in the sky, kit on the other hand you cover.

ARFs tend to drag an antenna, with kits you route it.

on the market there are some arfs that i dont belive will sustain 10 landings because of poor materials and build.

Alex

alfredbmor

Some people think that the builder as a non flier and the ARF assembler with a “real� flier, Well that is 100% incorrect, the 100% of the builders from a kit that I know have more time flying than the guys that go the hobby shop, buy an ARF, assembles it, go to the field, fly it, crash it, and never goes back (To many of them), some of the guys that have luck and returns, try to learn from the others that have more experience on flying and building, I also believe that the "builders" know more of aerodynamic principles than the "Assemblers", they only trust their brands and have the entire faith on them.
Maybe while a "Builder" is building a kit an "assembler" is watching a magazine and trying to decide which ARF will buy and look so cool at the field been more notorious than others.
While a "builder" is at the field ready for a maiden flight have a bigger percentage of success than an assembler with an ARF that for sure will be prying for that "thing" to fly.

I could spend all day writing about the issue but I would like to hear from a bunch of you and your experiences about the differences between the “builders� and “assemblers�.

Thanks

Happy landings and happy builds.

pilotpete2

Us guys up "nawth" have no excuse not to build, what with a 6 mo. building season
I'm just getting ready to break in a new G90 Tigre for a CG Extra 300. I purchased the kit back in 95', I guess that makes it an aroundtoit.
I really look forward to the maiden of the Extra, as it seems that so many regard the plane so highly. I've made some minor mods, for one I'm using dual servos on the elevators (a first for me) I have a Slimline pitts muffler on the G90 and I was lucky to be able to get one of their "U" versions that they made for the CG Ultimate and Extra (outlets at 70dg. to the firewall, no cutting of the cowl[8D])
Yes I have assembled an ARF or two (or three) but there is no substitute for the feeling you get from building from a kit or scratch building, also there is no way my 4*60 will be mistaken for someone else's 4*60, not that I did anything special, it's just the covering scheme is a bit different than the ARF version
Pete

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

Before I give my reasons, I just want to say that I think ARFs have their place. They serve a purpose and I have had ARFs.

OK. The answer(s)...

1. I can proudly say, "Yes I did" when someone asks, "Wow! That's a cool plane. Did you build that?"
2. I can personalize the plane as a way of expressing myself.
3. I get a lot of enjoyment and satisfaction from the building process.
4. I know exactly what's inside that plane.

ChuckW

Why would I rather build than habe an ARF? First let me say that I am not anti-ARF. I have owned my share and currently have a World Models .40 size Ultimate Biplane. Now back to why I would rather build... For one thing, I just like building things. Taking a pile of wood and turning it into a good performing airplane is very satisfying. That's a personal thing though. I also don't like the way many ARF's are constructed. While I like the looks of some ARF's, I see way too many weak glue joints, wrinkled covering jobs, landing gear plates popping out, wing bolt plates coming loose and so on. I know some ARF will catch my eye again and I will buy it but my kit and scratch built planes will always be my favorites.

SPLIT S

I just love building. It is just as much a part of the hobby as flying is for me. After a great day at the field flying with my buddies I almost always end up in the basement workshop working on the next flier. It's great to be recognized for your building abilities as well as your flying skills. I probably have my dad to thank for much of it - he could always see in his head what he wanted, not much pre-made was up to what he thought it should be. So into the workshop he went taking the utmost in care and planning. I was proud of my pop that what came off the workbench WAS exactly what he had envisioned - no shortcuts and quality craftsmanship.

These days my dad isn't doing so well - Alzheimers and diabetes have robbed him of much of the reasoning and the once razor sharp mind I remember when I was a kid. But every so often it still shines through. I'm glad that the talents I have within me now somehow continue what my dad had instilled in me so many years ago. I couldn't imagine settling for anything less.

Dan

FokkerAce

to add to SplitS's thoughts:

I love to build. I love to figure out the puzzles presented during the build.

and most importantly, I have a 7 year old wingman that wants to be in the shop constantly, loves glueing things together.

Planes, rockets, birdhouses.....doesn't matter.

Also teaching an engineering class to kids that didn't know how to use a screwdriver...
..our youth need to be taught how to build and fix!

jetmech05

Building a kit is like buying a Rolls Royce.
If you have to ask how much, you can't afford it.
If you have to ask why a kit....well....you will never understand it

somegeek

My Feedback: (2)

I enjoy building. I'd also like to ensure the plane is built well and bashed to my liking. Buying an ARF doesn't allow for this.

somegeek

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

I have 2 ARF planes our of 80 that I own. The quality just isn't there. We were at the field last weekend and a friend was flying a 42% bird. He went to take off and one elevator was down all the way. The glue had come loose holding that servo in and it fell out. Lucky he saw it before he took off. I have seen firewalls come off, wings fall off, tails come apart. I prefer to build them. I always end up stripping the ARFs and beefing them up before I fly them if I do one.

I just got the Cessna 310 from Top Flite though and it is a kick in the air.

greatlabs

I have flown ARF, RTF, scratch built from plans, kits and even built one that I designed using monthly instruction from a column in RC magazine called "Big is Beautiful". I enjoyed rekitting both the ARF and RTF but never enjoyed flying more than watching my kits, plans built and my own design fly for the first time. When you have someother pilot fly your box of wood you put together and ask if you built it and you proudly answer "yes". Then he asks if he can fly it again and again. No ARF or RTF will ever replace that feeling you get. The feeling of accomplishment just to watch another enjoy your plane as much as you do can not be replaced by someone else's work. Why would I build a kit? Build one and see how you feel when it takes to the air and lands for the first time and you will know why I don't assemble, I build.

shd3920

Nothing beats the feeling of pride you get when you successfully fly an airplane that was built with your own hands.
I have not purchasd an ARF yet, but I know I will in the near future. Yes, they are covered more professionally than I could probably do, and yes I would still take pride in flying it. But its just not the same kind of pride I would get from flying one of my own construction.

dmcmike

My Feedback: (14)

I've been flying, either CL or RC since 1967, and just now... 40 years later, do I have my first ARF. What took so long? I guess you'd have to develop a love for the smell of Ambroid, Aero-glos, Epoxy, all mixed together for weeks at a time, then hold your breath for the first few seconds of a maiden, only to feel this great adrenalin rush as she flies better than you had dreamed. I personally feel sorry for a lot of people who start out on ARFs. Not trying to belittle them at all, it's just that they're missing out on the most relaxing, rewarding part of the hobby.

Stickbuilder

You want to see the definitive answer to the title question? Go to the vintage and antique forum here on RCU, and open the WACO YMF thread. There are about 200 photo's made at Top Gun this past week, and today. There will be no more questions. The photos start on about page 87 and go through pase 89. Enjoy.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Jim_Purcha

My Feedback: (8)

I'm finishing off a Kraft Kit 4 Seasons 40, my first build in 15 years. Started flying again last year with a Hobbico Avistar, nice flying plane, but I enjoy the build as much or more than the flying. Maybe if my flying skills were better before. My first rc model, Sweetstick in '78 crashed on take off, and I rebuilt that one. Next was the Falcon 56 mark II, flew great. Never did see my Sig kouger or Jemco messerschmitt fly. Tossed between getting the Hanger 9 F-22 or plan building a F-18 pusher from RCM plans. My avitar has the paint scheme I would like to copy from the Canadian Armed Forces. It's nice to be different and bring something unique to the field.

TrickyPig

I was 13 when I built my first kit (Pole Cat). Until then I had never built or flown an RC aircraft. I'm 41 now and still feel good building and get excited anticipating how she will look & fly. I've had a couple ARF's and will probably have a couple (few) more but there will always be a kit in my shop or drawings to scratch build from. There are pros & cons to everything in life...but doesn't it always come to prespective & a little rationalization?

I do know that everyone in this great hobby/sport puts something from themselves into it.....and hopefully leaves something good behind

For what it's worth....anyone got change for a nickel?

alfredbmor

One more thing:

Take a look at all arf’s forums, any of them; the modelers at those forums will let you know how fantastic their planes fly “after the fixes or mods that they already did�

Examples, just to name a few:

H-9 Corsair (Needs to change the retractable landing gear and reinforce the firewall)
Great Planes Ultimate (Needs to reinforce the landing gear)
H-9 Funtana 40 and 90 size (Needs to reinforce the landing gear)
Great Planes Super Stearman (Wrong incidence, needs a lot of elevator trim)
H-9 AT6 Texan (Needs firewall reinforcement)
Hobbico Sukhoi (Tail heavy-bad incidence-flies with its tail down)
Phoenix Sonic low wing (Aileron servo support to tall to fit inside the fuselage)
H-9 sticks 40 and 60 sizes need landing gear reinforcement

Then you have to be a builder after buying an ARF so what is the point on buying this kind of arfs?

I own some ARFs, particularly some of the list above, and I had to do those changes or reinforcements to make them flying just well, I do love to build kits most of the time and I only buy ARFs when they come with a very suggestive model (marketing). After all, my kits fly better since the beginning than most of the ARFs that I have bought in my life.

I just love planes, all of them.
Alfred.

ag4ever

I was thinking about ARFs anf kit this weekend and realized the manufaturers MUST go after the ARF crwod and not focus on the kit crowd.

Now before you get mad at me, I would rather build than fly. I just have more fun building and seeing my handy work. I fly to prove I can build a plane that flies, but I just don't think it is as much fun. (You don't have to deal with club politics or other's egos when building but when flying you often have to deal with that.)

My though this weekend was as a business what is the future of a typical kit builder? They start out building a few kits that are "all inclusive" then progress to "builder" kits that you have some extra sourcing for parts, then on to plans where you either get parts cut in the form of a short kit or long kit, then they progress to plans where they cut all the parts them selves, then on to designing their own planes.

I know not all builders will take all the steps or go all the way to designing their own planes, but as a business you have to consider where your customer might go.

Now an ARF customer is one who "typically" does not want to build a plane. I would guess "most" of them would like it if they came 100% built just toss in some servos a reciever a battery and an engine and it is done. Now they are more focused on flying and there will typically be no progression except to bigger ARFs. This means the business that fosters a good relationship with the ARF customer can expect many more purchases down the road.

With a kit builder, the relationship is almost destined to be short lived.

I know not all people fit in these catagories, but I am sure enough people fit them that to a marketing standpoint the smart decision will always be nurture the ARF customers and keep them happy.

As a builder I don't like it, but after realizing this, I am more "at peace" with the hard facts and will just decide to progress to the next step instead of complain that the manufacturers are ignoring the kit builders.

On a good note, it is refreshing knowing the manufacturers do listen to us builders when we can prove there is a market for a kit such as what was done with Great Planes and the Ultra Soprt 40 and 60.

alfredbmor

Ag4ever:

I do believe there is some real facts on your reply, I also think that the builders market could be in danger as more often builders become more ARF buyers, that is a shame but also that’s life like, the wonder here is that even if you are an ARF buyer, with the time you must deal with the builder abilities, repairing or upgrading an existing ARF. As you do, I enjoy a lot my building time but I am certain about the future, we can not fight this big ARF wave, (Cheaper and hard to fly Chinese products), the marketing is impressive and the prices make your hands sweat, at our local field, almost all weekends there is at least one new ARF plane (Most of them Chinese) to the point that now anyone can take one brand new plane to test and if they do not like it, they always can practice hard maneuvers and if they crash it, they wont miss it because there is another ARF in their minds waiting to be purchased.

Going back to the purpose of the original post I do prefer to build instead of dealing with ARFs assembling surprises, and I feel a little nostalgic when I think that maybe my grandchildren could not enjoy this hobby as we do now because of marketing and top dollar business.

Thanks.

Stickbuilder

Tain't necessarialy so,

I am in the process of teaching my Grandson to trace the parts, and cut his own simple kits. Oh, he's 8 years old, which is 4 years older than I was when I tried to build my first model airplane. It was a solid Strombecker Globe Swift. You had to shut one eye and squint the other really hard to tell it was a model airplane. My Grandson will be cutting his first complex kit soon, (a Senorita) and if you don't think it is complex, try one.

Cutting the parts and building your own is not going away. There are too many of we olde phartes out there who will not let the craft die out.

If each of we old builders teach only 2 younger guys to cut and build, then our part of the hobby is going to grow. We don't need kit manufacturers to do anything for us. We can do it better than most of them ever did it with the die crunched parts that they offered. Just my humble opinion, but I can offer proof that it's not dying out. You can't offer definative proof that it is dying. One of the biggest threads here on RCU deals with the ressurection of an old kit that is now being cut by the builder. The thread is 97 pages long, and has thousands of posts. I can't ever remember an ARF thread that large. All you have to do is to get something started, and if you do it right, others will join in.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

dicknadine

don't know what I would do on the long winter/summer nights if it wasn't for kits or my own plans building. flying is the end bonus of building. my money has to last a lot longer than a ARF. also gives me a chance to show off my talent to the guys at the field or when the local libaray asks me put on a display of my SCRATCH design and Built Models. I acknowledge that today is instant success and flying. the current attitude of today is-- instant flying out of the box and go order another one. Money seems to be indispenceable. at the end of the year I probably spend a lot more than the ARF, however I have ended up with my fingers CA'd together often. Plus its hard to hang up the ARF's from the ceiling and show them off to guests. its fun to say LOOK WHAT I BUILT. just happen to have been in model building since the middle 1930's. it sure helped me later on in my full scale aircraft design as an Aeronautical, Aerospace Engineer. snuff said. dick

flysrc

The difference between ARFS and kit built is when you open the box right when you get back from the LHS store shelling out your hard earned dollars. You either say to yourseld I HAVE to build it OR, I GET to build it. Which person are you?
Dave

ag4ever

Bill,

I agree that building will never go away.

Two of the threads I have to check EVER TIME I log on are the WACO thread and the TF GS Corsair thread. Your thread is over 98 pages now, and the Corsair thread is over 120 pages. These are two threads that deal with building primarily. I find the builders are a tighter knit community and are more willing to help each other with the hoby than most of the ARF guys are. I am not saying the ARF guys are not nice or helpful, but their first concern it seams is flying.

For me, my first concern is to have fun and make sure others are having fun.

I am currently working to get my nephew interested in flying and building. He is 8 also, but I don't think he is ready to build a scratch kit. A LT-40 possibly, but now way a Senorita.

In addition, I see so many different planes that I want to build which you just can't get as an ARF which leaves me no choice, I have to build it any way possible (Plans. kit or even scratch).

My wife is fascinated with Howard Hughes and is now bugging me to build the hercules. I have told her even a small 1/10 scale will still have at least a 10' wing span and she does not care. She wants a model of it, so it too is added to my "to buld list" since NOBODY is making any ARF or even a kit of it. Heck, I have not even found a plan of it, so it will be a scratch build for me using station drawings of the original.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I am a builder not a flier. If I fly it is just to prove the darn thing can fly. Heck, how many times have your knees knocked together and you worried that your plane would not live any longer while it was sitting on the bench being built? This won't stop me from flying them, but I really love the build and just like the flying.

Stickbuilder

Ag,

I began building in order to be able to fly something. I'm still in that mindset. I take absolutely zero personal pride in the ownership of a model airplane that someone else has built. It might as well be a Stanzell Electro Streak. If ARF models are what make someone's tires squeal, then by all means go for it. They just don't blow my skirt up.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1