I've built many planes, nearly all of them have been built off plans and two own designs. I want so many nice kits out there but I am put off by their cost. For example, the great Planes Super sport .40 is nearly just as expensive nearly in kit form as it is in ARF form here in Australia. Why don't kit manufacturers outsource their products to the far East so the price will come down? I am despairing for the aeromodelling hobby because everyone flies the same models ,it can be hard to work out whose plane is whose on the flight line.I rarely buy RC Magazines anymore because they have become ARF reviews and nothing else.I'm glad to have kept all my all magazines from the 80s and 90s.They may be in black and white but they still inspire and inform.Sorry for the whinge but the hobby just seems to cater for ARFs only .Building is just as big a joy as the flying component of our hobby, and if kit prices came down I'm sure Kit sales would increase because plenty of people enjoy building as well.

If you see a market there, why don't you contact those Far East manufacturers, and put your own designs into production? I'll take a couple, off the first run.

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

Granted there are a few good ARF Mfg's out there but the fact still remains that,
if you build it, you know what is under the covering and don't have a doubt about
the type of or how much of glue or adhesives are used in the construction. I feel
your pain as I myself prefer to build rather than buy an ARF. With the up surger in
ARF sales, most mfg's are discontinuing kits in favor of Asian built ARF's. With the
pace of life getting faster as the years go by, many people don't have the time or
patience to build from kits. Unfortunately the new breed of modeller today doesn't
know the joys of building from a kit or scratch building, all they are interested in is
how fast they can assemble it (if they even do that themselves) and get it to the field
to fly it.

On most of the planes I am currently building I have the Lazer-Works in Witchta Falls, Texas
cut all of my short kits for me, as I don't have the time to cut parts from plans and you can't beat the
acuracy of the parts. Most of the time I only have them do wing ribs for me, Eddie is
not only a source for lazer cutting but he is a proffesional modeller as well, and is very
selective in the wood he choses to use for his business. I am sure that you have a
modeller that has a laser cutting busines in Aussie Land, seek them out and get them to
give you estimates. Just for the record the Lazer-Works charges on the average $1 per
minute of lazer time. I recently purchased a RCM Bobcat plan #1017 short kit for less than $30.
He is also working on the 9' span Nosen Mr. Mulligan as we speak from the kit I sent him
to copy. If the urge strikes you send him an e-mail I'm sure he will ship overseas as well.
http://lazer-works.com/main.html

The word out sourcing here in the US is a nasty word or two. It cannot be argued that the ARF makers in China are turning out some in expensive ARF models and as you stated, it is close to or does cost more to build and finish the same plane in kit form. However all the out sourcing has not been turning out a mass of good planes. There have been so many issues with these planes just falling apart due to bad construction at the factory. These ARF's fill a market for all the flyers that do want to build a kit or do not have time to build a kit, and this is the reason that they are doing as well as they are. I have had a couple of them and they have both been problems. One of them had the firewall fall out as I applied power for a take off. I have always been a kit builder and will always be a kit builder. If I build a kit I know it was built well and I have the satisfaction of knowing that I built it. I also like supporting the companies that are making RC Products here in the US. Good Luck, Dave

ARF's were made to try and increase the sport by making it easier for people to get into the hobby, as we've all noticed, anybody can show up at the field with a nice looking plane. But many times I've seen these arf's put together so badly that I'm running for safety when they try and fly it. The general rule of thumb is if you learn to build, then you know how to fix as well, but many arf owners would rather find a trash can than a work bench. I unfortunitly ended up repairing the downed aircraft for the few that wanted to see it fly again. After I fixed the planes, I would ask them if they wanted to build a kit, usually the response was "too much work" or "why?, when I can buy this for almost the same cost", but most of the planes I fixed were crashed because of poor manufacturing or poor assembly. The cost of a kit being high doesn't bother me too much, at least I know it will stay together for many years to come and it'll be a one of a kind at the field.

Scuttlebutt is that manufacturers will be offering less in the way of future kit offerings as current productions run out and they will, instead, devote time to offering more ARF's because that is what is selling. Basic economics. It IS a pity that a lot of current flyers do not have the least idea of what went into their ARF and really don't care. It is EASIER for most of them to walk the ARF pieces to the trash can as they reach for their wallet and cell phone. Kit building/plan building is becoming a lost art and craftsmanship seems to be taking a back seat to "instant gratification" at the club field. A true shame.... I currently have about 15 or so kits and about 25 plan sets plus two on the building board. Will be purchasing a few kits more before they are gone. It IS a good thing we have lazer cutter companies that can help out with the quick cutting of parts so modelers can still build their own model. Happy flying and build on....

Joe

I really hope this thread doesn't degenerate into another "We're better than them ARF people" rant. It's been covered and at this point it's just boring![:'(]

The originator asked why kits are so expensive. Here's my take. I think it's because with the popularity of ARF's they've been pushed into a much smaller market segment (a niche in fact) with higher costs as a result of less volume. As an example, if a producer needs to make $5,000 profit on a run of 100 kits he needs a $50 margin per kit but if he sold 1000 he only needs $5. There's also material costs. An ARF producer can use less wood and lower quality materials than a kit producer because no consumer will see it. High quality balsa is getting much more expensive and I don't see much of it in ARF's - just cheap ply. I think these things help offset the higher cost of assembly and shipping of an ARF over a kit.

However, as energy and Asian labor costs continue to go up ARF's may get much more expensive and breath some life back into kit sales. Volume is the key.

Hi sqeaky

I may have read your posts wrong,to me it all seems like you may be making a mountain of a mole hill.Fun is fun and there will always be balsa.I've read and heard a few people saying you cannot beat the precision of cnc or sim cut kits.Not sure how they mean that and why they say it../goes straight to your question perhaps?

I'll do back flips down my own driveway if the average carefull modeller can hand cut and fit a few sticks together as well or better as any arf manufacturer.Who's getting mothered..them or us?? re price and convenience..

Most kits seem like pretty good value to me. For around $200 (and often less) I can get a kit that will keep me occupied for many (many) months. So really the question isn't why are kits so damn expensive but rather why are ARF so ridiculously cheap.

Of course we know the answer to that.

Answer, supply and demand with better profits in the ARFs.
I have given kit cutters A try, pretty nice way to do things.
I still enjoy cutting my own kits but I may be or have A better set up to do it then most modelers?? I like building from plans for my own planes but just because I have A lot more choices instead of just the cookie cutter planes you see most the time.
The price on kits wouldn't be bad if they would stick glass cowls and pants in the kit instead of plastic crap. That is A bunch to spend on A box of wood then have to spend more money on after market parts to make it look better and last longer.
It's A good question you posted but an easy answer.
Go ahead and vent though, this is A good place for it!!

ARF's were made because someone believed they could make money in it.
Dollers and cents issue. When more people believe they can make more money in kits You will see more kits. Just that simple!
john

Kits have some expenses that the ARF's don't have. Some that come quickly to mind include the full size plan sheetsanybody who has had them copied at Kinko's knows how expensive they are. Collating nuts, bolts, small parts and counting all the different sizes of sticks and sheets. Hand packing all that stuff into the box. (Must be tough 'cause I can't ever get it back in) The kit needs a more substantial assembly manual in today's market. Jig built ARF's might be able to use simpler partsie., no jig tabs that come on kit parts.

An ARF still needs to have all it's wood cutout and assembled. Once assembled it still needs to be covered. An ARF still has the goody bag with it that has all the screws, control horns and such. While not as extensive, an ARF still has and assembly manual of sorts and they all typically come with more parts than most kits. (wheels, axles, spinners and such) I to am not seeing the real reason that kits are so much more expensive. I fully understand the profit and loss column thoughts, and the supply and demand thoughts, however a kit is a box of wood that has been die cut, had an instruction manual tossed in with a few corprate decals and away it goes. As I said an ARF still needs to be cut out and or die cut first. Not sure why the ARF's are so much cheaper. Good Luck, Dave

An ARF is nothing more than a kit that was put together in a factory. Same parts. Same hardware. Same need for an assembly doc (you don't honestly think the factory guys just magically know how to put these together, do you?). So, take the ARF parts, put them in the same box, slap on a sticker than says "Kit" and you now have a kit . . . minus all the assembly labor . . . . Yeah, different manual, but pretty much the same requirement for printed material, and after all, the assembly "how-to" is already done for the ARF factory, so no cost there, other than perhaps making is all "cutesy" for an end user, which is hardly necessary . . .

So, I agree with the original poster - why are kits so expensive? Perhaps to justify not making kits by deliberately pricing them out of reasonability? Or ? ? ?

- Tim

Sig kits are still quite reasonable, when you consider their quality. There are still a few kits that can be built cheaper
than the arf. The Somethin' Extra arf costs $200. The kit costs $75. factor in $30. to cover it, $25. for tank, wheels,
and glue. That comes to $130. if you use all the kit hardware. Save $70. and enjoy the build! I realize that this is a rare
situation. I feel I've only over-paid for one kit(great planes).

An ARF made in China has it's part cut on a die cutting machine made in China, with dies made in China, with wood prepared in China, using glue made in China. All the harware is made in China, on machines and molds made in China. The money saved isn't just the peasant girl getting 50cents a day to assemble and cover the plane, it's the whole supply chain. Covering is probably also made in China. I'm not sure where the Ultracote usually comes from that I use, but I'd bet the ultracote on Hangar 9 ARFs is made in China

Made in America kits are (most likely) made on die cutting machines made in the USA, with dies made in the USA, etc.

Kits are more expensive because they are the low production item. The companies are willing to make thousands of arfs with low profits and make there money with volume. With the kit volume low, they actually have to decide to take their profit product off line to make some regular kits for us. Very few of the old kit makers made kits as there soul source of income; they did it because they liked to see their product out or to supplement their income.

Some like to build and Some like to assemble... the assemblers will forever outnumber the builders going forward and thats the way it is. I like to build and will keep at it. I even built my flight box, even though the kit was the same price as pre-built version and folks at the club laughed at me for that one. But at least i know which box is mine b/c it doesn't look like the other 6, and neither does my TH trainer or 4* (dedicated kit basher) and soon which VK Nieuport 17... ooops it will be the only one.... b/c there aren't ARFs of anything structurally complicated. I enjoy building furnture too... again you have the box openers/assemblers and those who pull out the drill press and table saw.

Mike

So have the Chinese throw the parts in the same box, ship it, and *PRANG* instant kit, same supply chain, and no volume of build issues. C'Mon, guys, it's just not that complicated . . .

- Tim

Wow, Looks like the entire AMA forum playhouse is here.

I don't think its fair to compare the prices of products produced in free countries and those products produced in oppressive countries .

People that buy cheap Chinese products know they are supporting oppressive regimes . And they know they are supporting something very similar to slave labor.

But to be completely honest about it, The same thing has happened in this hemisphere for 100 years. We have always stomped burgeoning democracies and backed dictators freindly to our corperations and their slave labor arrangments with those dictators. It wasn't model airplanes. It was generally fruit companies or other commodities . But product was cheap.

To buy cheap products that are produced in this manner is condoning the oppression of human beings. Thats no bargain. Thats not exporting freedom. Thats not what we want to stand for.

I choose to buy products produced by free people. It does cost more. But it is worth it.

I hope this explains the difference in price and the true cost.

To clear up a few points.
There are no die cut parts in a Chinese product. They are lazer cut from a cut file and they do have plans for the model being built. These have been cad drawn and printed on high quality paper that is moisture resistant and not prone to expansion or contraction to maintain accuracy.All models are jig built, and given that situation we could have USA workers do it also at $15.00 an hour or more plus benefits with the corresponding howl about the cost of the item. Covering is cut by computer and I've heard of some models being able to be covered in a little as 14 minutes. Production methods are efficient and no one is standing over the worker with a whip flogging them to work.
As to labor practices you really need to read your history of the Unites States to realize that all countries go through the same growth cycles. We had people working for less then $1.00 a day and we became the sharp'Yankee Trader' because of it.
Time and prosperity will level the playing field.
Dennis

I suggested this very thing a couple of years ago in this forum and was told by at least one kit and ARF supplier that a box of ARF parts would make a poor kit because they are meant to be jig built and that they would not compete with the very simple to build Great Planes and Sig style kits with big manuals. I think that I would be happy with a box of parts, a decent drawing and a basic build instruction set to cover any unusual details or steps needed for that particular model. I can figure out the rest myself. And I KNOW it won't fall apart during it's maiden and it will be straight and the covering will look much better than any ARF I have held in my hands. But it doesn't seem to work that way...

I even suggested bringing in built, but uncovered airframes as ARC "kits". That way, its easier to see the structure and reinforce / re-glue / modify things you don't like and it won't look the same as every other model at the field once everyone does their own thing with the covering. But that was shot down because it seems most ARF people are most afraid of the covering stage of construction. It seems there is simply no winning with the ARF hordes...

For whoever said that plans building is also dying, I disagree. I think that many people who want to build kits but are disappointed with the cost and selection available are turning to plans building. No matter what happens to kits, I believe that plans will always be there, because of the unlimited choice of subjects to model and the creative outlet it offers. It will not be the dominant form of building, but it will always be around with a core of craftsman who shun the ARF offerings.

Mark

Where do I begin?

1.) "you really need to read your history of the United States to realize that all countries go through the same growth cycle (sic)."

First of all, there is a difference between US history and world history. You will not study the "growth cycle " of other countries by reading American history.
However, if you did study the history of other counties you would realize that they differ greatly from US history including the development of there economies. A very large part of a country's economic development depends on thier interaction with other more powerful countries, thier natural resources, and last but not least, their form of government. Freedom is a very important part of that formula. Totalitarian regimes tend to keep the wealth of the nation for themselves, for the elite governing class. This is the case in China. The populous will not recieve its fair share. Prosperity will not be shared. The playing field never level. You have applied a "free market" principle to a totalitarian system . Its a common mistake. I made the same mistake myself when I first looked at the situation back in the 1980's. I though very much the same things you do. But I kept reading.

2.)"we had people working for less than a $1.00 a day."

Thats very true. And we had people working for 25 cent per day at one time. And we had people working for 15 cents per day even before that. Its a mostly pointless statement without context. Let me take your side for a moment and color in the context that I think you may have intended. Perhaps a skilled laborer working for Henry Ford at about the birth of mass production and the industrialization of America made something like a dollar a day. I assume thats what you are referring to for comparison to China's present step through the industrial threshold.
Well, lets look at that period of American history and compare it to China's present situation and see if there really are parallels. And actually there are many. Wealth in America, at that time, became very concentrated among a very small elite class that had enormous power. We refer to them now as the "robber barons". That much we do have in common with China. In America there were many industries controlled by one person or one company. These were called monopolies. These were ultimately considered a distructive force for the free market because they elliminated competition. Elliminating competition not only held prices high, it kept wages low. Eventually , the Federal government stepped in and passed new laws to correct this problem and return ballance to the free market. This is where our history and our democracy and freedom alter the course away from the present situation in China.

3.) "Time and prosperity will level the playing feild"

That is a true enough statement as long as you are dealing with free societies. Its not true if you have a ruling class that is hoarding wealth and bilking a cowed populous.

look at it this way. a kit gives you 100+ hours of building entertainment while an arf gives you 5-15 (i've never gotten more than 10 out of any arf). even if the kit cost 500 dollars and the arf was 100 dollars thats only five dollars an hour for entertainment with the kit, verses like 7-20 dollars an hour with an ARF. I doubt where you live they are that expensive. Most kits are in the 100 dollar range. your looking at abou 1-2 dollars an hour for entertainment. I would go broke if all i built was ARF's because i have to sit down to build at least once a week. In the winter it's even worse. It's like 5 nights a week. I probably get 3 kits done in the winter. The bottom line is buy a kit, take your time, enjoy it, and even if that kit was a thousand dollars it will be worth every penny. Now i don't compleatly hate arf's. I think they are great for getting into the hobby. Beofre you had to have a gradfather or dad or friend who knew how to build to get into it. Now with the park flyer RTF and trainer ARF's any one can fly. My first plane was an ARF (Hangar 9 easy fly 40) and i love it. I also did not own all the tools you needed to build a kit nor was i willing to go out and buy them all at once. An arf or RTF is a great way to get your feet wet into the hobby. The logic behind the kit vs the arf does seem weird. I mean if you add up all the time it take a person to assemble a kit plus the covering and hardware costs you think a kit would cost one tenth of what an ARF costs. The bottom line is, you have to think of it as entertainment. I realalize this is an expensive hobby but if you don't have some disposiable income it's not the right hobby for you.
just my two cents
-Matt

In my experience I've never gotten ANY building entertainment whatsoever from an ARF. ARF's seem to somehow retain all the most tedious, annoying, and least pleasurable parts of "building" (for example doing the plumbing and linkage) without any of the joy of construction.