I'm also of this mentality.

I'm 25 years old...and my favorite planes are all kits. I don't buy ARFs....I've only owned one. Everyone who I encounter who's my age at the field is typically flying an ARF.

With an 0.S. 46AX.....

They're not familiar with Carl Goldberg, or Midwest, or Dynaflite....or Picco or Rossi. They use electric starters while I still hand flip. They use Hobbicco electric fuel pumps while I still rock the Davis 6-Shooter. They don't know how to tune a pipe...and they're afraid of biplanes. They come out to the grass field with 2" wheels on and wonder why they can't take off in thick, tall grass....while I breeze by on a set of 3.25er's.

Everything about this generation is "turn key." Not this hobbyist. Although young at 25, this hobbyist has 10 years of RC experience. This hobbyist still flies control line planes.
This hobbyist doesn't believe in "turn key." This hobbyist believes you should suffer through a kit to learn words like stringer, turtledeck, bulkhead doubler. This hobbyist still maintains covering is an art....and not a science. Familiar with names like Harry Higley and Hanno Prettner.

What's with my generation and the belief that everything must be here and now? Instant gratification? Now they've got this Hanger P-51 Mustang for a trainer?? What the hell, over?
What happened to building an CGM Eaglet? Or a Sig Seniorita?

I am crestfallen.

Alright I'm done.

I have actually taken pencil and paper and drew plans for my twin which is so far the only pic I posted. Just a basic drawing to build from, but I used the airfoil from another plane and worked things out along the way. I also did another plane which looks like the Lanier Stinger cause I didnt want to buy the kit. I used an OS 48 4 stroke for power. Originally I built it for
the OS Wankle I had lying around but went with the 48 instead. I'll post those pics later.

I'm seeing a untapped potential coming to life in this thread, not only building, but designing and kitting as well.

Since we've strayed off into the world of design and kitting, let me caution you guys.  I did both in the early '80's.  My partner and I designed and kitted the "Elliptic".  It was a first generation turn around pattern design and was very successful.  Received nice reviews from the leading mags of the day.  But....designing and cutting parts is the easy part.  Actually, the only fun part.  Things like advertizing, artwork, packaging, the IRS, molding canopies, wheel pants, cowlings, tooling jigs, etc., etc. are no fun!!  And then there's us, the always unsatisfied customer.  Actually, we only had a few of those, but those kind of people are just plain weird...and a pain in the behind.  But, you won't know til you try.  So my best to all you future kit  suppliers.  You're gonna  hate those week ends when your buds are at the flying field and you're cuttin' out parts.  You never know, it might my order you're cuttin' out when you could be flying.  Good news is, I'm a nice customer!

pmw

PMW, I know a guy who kitted planes for ACE, MEN and a few other designers, his only woe was electronics, primarly ACE. If I did do a kit, I would farm out a bunch of kits to be cut by a lzser cutter, the canopies and cowls would be done in-house, the plans, would be printed off at a printing shop to fill the kits I plan on making. But I'll tell you this, I wouldn't be in it for the money, if it happens then great, I would only do it just to get my design fledged to a few people and see what the reaction is. Yeah, I already have a name for the designs and company, but as usual, it's down the road, kinda like when I drove to colorado, the rockies seemed like they were down the road, but after a while, they were still down the road, after 21 day of looking at this ant hill become a monster, I finally realized I was about to begin my climb up US40 to steamboat springs. Kinda the same timeline except hours are months and a day is a year or two. Don't worry PMW, I'll send you one NC if I do kit a few.

Planebuilder,

I wish you the best.  It's a real rush to see your plane reviewed in the mags.  We designed and prototyped a smaller version of the Elliptic.  The design is still available from RC Magazine plans service.  We had a totally different type of design on the drawing boards when we shut down the business.  I was hired as a pilot for a major airline and just didn't have the time required to continue.  My partner went on to design several planes and sold construction articles to RC Magazine.  He finally got burned out and has moved on to other things.  By the way, I still fly the original Elliptic on occassion.  It's been through 3 engines and 4 different paint schemes.  Still flies like a dream.  But, of course I can say that since I designed it!!  Again, good luck to you.

pmw

Got any pic's of the gem? Not looking to infringe on any design ideas or anything like that, just like to see creative essence in it's purest form.

Funny thing is Iwas going through one of my plans catalogs and looking at the Elliptic 40 and thinking about making it a 120. It's featured in the M.A.N. plans and is number FSP03862. A 58 inch span is still a pretty big 40 size plane. Looks like a good turn around plane for pattern flying.
For anyone looking for a good looking pattern plane you should take a look at it!! It's only listed as an LD-2 which tells you it is a pretty easy plane to build.
Another one Iwanted to build for my pilot when I was a pit man for racing was the Hotselliptic but he had other ideas. Later on Ifound out he couldn't look at a set of plans and see what Iwas showing him. That happens a lot with ARF people or folks that have others build for them?
You can no longer get the canopy's and glass products from places like ACE any longer but Ihave been able to find most anything I need at Fiberglass Specialties or Imatch sizes with ARFs and buy there replacement parts.
Who knows, if you design a plane and build and fly the prototypes you may be able to get MAN to show a build artical and sell your plans?? Ihave no idea what the designer gets for money out of the deal but I have read about people trying to kit a design and it's a lot harder then I ever thought it would be.
Maybe PMW would like to share about selling plans through a magazine?? Is it worth the effort??

That brings up another topic, designers,....if say goldberg is now owned buy great planes, but the good old extra and sukhoi are no longer being made, obviously, golberg/GP no longer want's to pay for the patent rights to it, so it reverts to the designer on the print. What's the chance that the original designer would like to make a few extra bucks and re-release the kit under a new supplier? I'm assuming that GP or CGM wouldn't bother with leagal litigation, especially since they bought CGM after the discontinuation of the product? Any Ideas, midwest kits, CGM, Royal/makutria,Pilot?

Gray Beard,

There aren't many mags that still do construction articles so my info is a little dated.  Back when RCM bought my partner's construction articles, their policy was to buy the article and all rights to the plans.  You were responsible to supply all photos and text used in the article.  They would edit and provide the photo captions.  I think they paid about $500 per article and then sold the plans indefinitely.  The biggest effort was taking the photos.  You had to build the plane and shoot lots of pics during the process.  I think they had staff that could draw the plans, but that meant you were paid less.  I have a degree in drafting, so I drew our own.  The original Elliptic was a 70" elliptical wing.  I used the moments of Joe Bridi's XLT.  My wife has been after me for 25 years to build a giant scale version.  She seldom comes to our flying field, but when I take the Elliptic, she always shows up.  She loves that plane!  We built four proto types to test differnent engines and C.G. ranges.  Number 1,3 and 4 still exist.  I have no.3 that was designed to test the brand new O.S. 1.20 four stroke.  Perfect engine combo.  I wore the engine out and replaced it with a SupreTigre piped .60 mounted inverted.  Worked great, but was a maintenance pain.  Been flying since 1985 with a good old ASP 1.08.  Will post pictures when the wife can help.  Not my forte'

pmw

Sorry to hog all the air time here, but I thought you all might enjoy this.  As a kit builder, you will find yourself interfacing with some of the giants of the hobby.  When we first designed the Elliptic, we were looking for someone who would pull a few sets of wheel pants for us to use on the prototypes.  No one was interested until we contacted a company that had just started advertizing in the magazines.  We had never heard of them, but they were very nice and we assured them we would not be competing in their territory.  They agreed to five sets of wheel pants if we would send them the plugs, which we did.  They were perfect and my Elliptic no. 3 still has them on it.  Their name was Great Plains.  Ever heard of them?!

pmw

Well, I am also younger (28) but not ready to build at this point. Just tippin' my toe in the water and trying my first ARF. My wife bought a used trainer for me and it came with a flight box and all for extremly cheap. ($500 combo for $245 wonder what she did to talk him down JK!!) No hobby clubs in the area that are close, closest is 60 min drive for building tips or alterations to do to a kit. Not a bad drive, but when gas costs us a buck a litre it is a big deal!! (3.? or 2 something litres in a gallon.) and of course we live in a country where every citizen can own like a quater section of land if we spread out.

I would love to build a plane also, but Ido not have any room at all (babies fault ) so an ARF will have to do till Iget a house and a garage.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Your assumption is very wrong. GP is VERY protective of their copyrights - even for discontinued items.

Depends, did CGM give up the patent rights before the buy out? If they did, GP has no stake in thier claim, the designer would, and if they did get the rights back, they would have to pay royalties to the designer, plan for kit production, the R& D is already done, but they would probibally redo the design, for ARF world. But if they did that, it would no longer fall under the designers specs, so they in theory could re register the patent, design a new version, patent that and try to hold the market. But they do have lawyers to fight their battles, so I'm not ruling out that componet of the equation. I guess the final questions is,....if it's no longer in production and the patent to own such design isn't renewed for 7 years, who owns it, the designer, or the last person to register it?

Nice to hear about more young fellow countrymen wanting to build (with babies no less!) I'll say this: although there were no babies, when I was in my 20's I'd build on the doorstep if needed. Actually, in summer, you can grab a good old door, a pair of used trestles and set up shop outside. Icurrently build half way out of the garage when the whether is nice. During my teens, I'd hog up the kitchen table and dinner would be had outside. Once your wing has been sheeted and your fuse framed up for which you need a flat table, just about anywhere will do.

Enjoy that ARFin the meantime. It doesn't hurt as much when they fly toward center earth and they are not the fruits of your labour.

David.

No. GP owns all rights to CGP

Well, there are other planes not owned by GP that are desirable to rekit, but I'd rather put out a new design, plus, there is nothing wrong with designing a new extra or sukhoi, but then again, how many of those are already flooding the market right now. I guess I'd love to see more good old cap 10B kits, jungmann's, seversky P-36, maybe a few more twin engine or quad engine kits and of course, some golden age classics as well.

Just a bit of a question, if CG had already given up producing a kit before the buy out would the rights to that plane have been included in the deal with GP? I'm pretty sure they were. Just wondering because they quit producing the Sukhoi quite a while back.
Plane, when Joe Bridi was about to close up shop he had all his dies and plans up for sale for a very long time, everything, the press too. No takers?? He cut my club some kits for the Kaos after he closed shop though, I think it was about 12 of them. That would have been a great deal.
Another one I knew about that closed there doors was Texas Twins but I was never able to get any info on what happened with there plans or what they had? I built one of there Extra 260s and was impressed with it, a bit heavy but it was fully sheeted.
You could back track and find some of the older kit makers and see what they have done with there equipment and plans.
At one point I ran a die cutter and they are easy to set up and operate, new dies don't cost very much either.

In general a patent refers to a manufacturing process or manufaxctured item and a copyright refers to a design.

If you replicate the original kit using different construction and materials then you should not be violating a patent. Of course you cannot use the original name and artwork because they are copyright.

Patents and copyrights expire in time

No one has a patent on the concept of an aircraft or a model aircraft..

Today's computer technology offers the chance of the perfect kit. A CAD plan with G-code for cutting the parts The design can easily be scaled for size or modified by the builder before having the parts cut.

The ohio R/C planes were pretty nice, ACE R/C had some nice large aerobats too.

It is most likely not an issue of patent rights. If it were, then the issue is easier. Patents expire or protection lapses for various reasons such a the non-payment of maintenance fees. Once expired or lapsed, there are no protections. This is what happens to drugs when their patents expire. Generics are manufactured when the primary drug has gone "off patent".

Copyrights are another thing entirely. They do not expire. If GP (or anyone else) has acquired the copyright for a design, they are entitled to the protection of that property. That isn't to say that we as modelers do not have any options when it comes to designing but copyright infringement is different than violating patent rights. What those options are is a subject for another post.

As an FYI, I pretty much live in this space.

[quote]ORIGINAL: planebuilder66

OK, so I don't have the inventory of some of the guy's who post on here, but I find myself buying alot of kits recently, but not the current offerings, more like vintage and laser cut kits, I just bought the old birdi rearwin speedster on
I will take the Rearwin off your hand if you feel guilty!

Anyone know what Byron did with there kits?? Those were some outstanding planes and great builds. Mid West??

I'm building a long discontinued CraftAir Firebird kit i got from the LHS (He's got lots of oldies). Lots of sanding and shaping!! Looks like a boxy ultrasport.

Ahh, good old elbow grease and you endup with a classic, now that's what I'm talking about! These new kits, if it's not laser cut or have a preformed LG, cowl or surface covers for detailing, with a giant sticker pack to simulate a dash and rivits, it's considered to be a pain in the arse and "low quality" construction. Those musty old boxes of precious contents are what I crave, now a box of laser chared parts to slip together and spend hours fine sanding the black carbon off the edges so my covering doesn't endup with lines showing through it.