Swap meets can be pretty good. One of the local clubs had their annual swap meet in November. Someone was selling a GP Patriot 40 for $90~$100 CAD. One of the newer members of my club commented "Yeah but you still have to cover it.". I needn't have the cash for it and I don't believe it ever sold. Have to check one of the other clubs swap meets in February.

Jim

I just watched the video and can't help commenting, that doesn't look safe at all to me. What kind of prop do you have on there?
If the prop breaks you'll end up in the water with a heavy weight on your back...
(You might also risk future flights if you don't replace that prop)

Have you tried kite-surfing? A lot more challenging and fun!

Back on topic, a few companies do offer kits in both ARF and true "kit" form. Problem is that with the current working conditions they have in the east then the prices are very similar...

the problem is these days as has been point out ad nausiom, the biggest market is for ARFs. I am more into bigger planes, and I definately prefer to built. I was looking at a 150cc ultimate not long ago, and asked if I had the options of uncovered and as a kit. I could get the Ultimate either way, but get this, uncovered was only $50 less and as a kit it was $155 less than a custom colour schemed ARF kit. makes you think dont it, I cant even buy the covouring for the plane for $155, let alone build and cover. Irregardless, I will be building all my planes in future, as the last 2 ARFs I bought left a lot to be desired in the way they were constructed. My 72" katana just folded up on its 5th flight, flying imac routines. and the 88" yak54 basicly sux so bad I havent even finished it, its out in my back shed making an expensive home for rodents. The YAK was so poorly built that every jouint in it is simply falling apart, the ply is delaminating, and the covering job? forget it, I dont know enough civilised words to describe it. [:'(][:@][&:] The wing cracked when I 1sdt picked it up, and with light pressure I could twist it approx 15* with more cracking noises. The f/g cowl was poorly moulded, The h'ware I wouldnt use on a 60 size plane and 1/2 of it wasnt there either. The supposed c/f landing gear is plastic, and 1 leg sits 3/4 inch lower than the other, and the tailwheel assembly is a joke. This kit was an $1175 dollar waste of time, and I will NEVER buy an (B)ARF again. Since then I have a surprising variety of kits and plans out there, and while I havent found what I am looking for just yet its only a matter of time. I cant believe all those people that complain about lack of kits.

Viking, what brand off 88" arf was it? I want to be sure and stay away from it.

I will for the moment leavce the company out of it, The guy I was dealing tried to help all he could, to the point of replacing the kit, but it turns out the company that built the kit has closed shop

The lack of quality workmanship is across the board when it come to stuff coming out of China,,
I won't say "never",,,
but I'd only buy an arf if I absolutely had too, I don't care how Cheap,,, Sorry I mean inexpensive, they are.


Maybe cheap is the right word

BE SHOCKED!!! WAY SHOCKED

And the reason arf's are cheaper than a kit is because it is a simple and very very easy way of putting an airframe togeather. Lazer cutting a kit is the easy way to build. Really don't need to read just fallow the numbers. Kind of like the old "paint by numbers" toys they had out.

Thank you... I will have to check them out soon.... Bit of a drive but might be worth it... Something to do when the weather sucks.......Carl

Its as safe as you make it.... The prop is a 48" Mike hay prop from www.ppgprops.com The body of water you see is Lake Huron... Its only inces deep there and stay only 2-3' for hundreds of feet off shore... Believe me,,,, I've been in the drink before... I also have 6 props on hand... Plus I fix them myself... That prop you see is back up and flying... If I lose power I glide down... For every 8' forward I loose 1' of altitude... So I can glide for ever.... Why would I kite surf??? I fly in the sky for real... I have been up 10,000' through and above the clouds.... Kit surfing would bore, me....Carl

Ok this may help

Plans are here :- http://www.trentonrcflyers.com/patte...structions.htm

Kits from some of the plans:-http://www.lazer-works.com/list.html

More kits :- http://www.eurekaaircraft.com/airplanes/planes.htm

You can also buy plans from MAN and RCM Mags to match the short kits

Bluejay:- http://bridiairplanes.com/ Kaos / Birdi kits.


Hope this helps

Johnkpap

First off, you got balls of steel to fly like that so closely to the ground/water. I don't even like flying my models that low, including when I'm landing, always seems that's when bad stuff happens. In any event...

People have pretty much beat this topic to death, but I figured I'd chime in with my two cents...

A lot of guys in my club swear by ARFs, but I swear at them. Despite their claims I still think they are pieces of garbage. As many people have pointed out they are built in jigs, and someone mentioned glue, but if you ever take one apart you'll find that they are held together by their covering. Too many times I've found this to be true when making repairs or bashing. I think the glue is just temporary until they get all the "stickers" wrapped around.

I love building from kit and scratch. It is one thing to say that you can fly, but to say you actually built the airplane puts you in an elite group. And I don't want to here anybody griping about I don't have the time. I have 4 young kids, wife, and FT job and I still find time for this and other hobbies. It is just a matter of having your priorities set straight.

I'm not gonna say I can waive a magic wand and give you an all-inclusive list of kits, because as many have pointed out the industry, against its better judgement, has gone that way. You just gonna have to search high (RCU) and low (eBay) for a kit. If you can't find it look for plans and go through a kit cutter, or build from true scratch. Or draw your own and build it.

Worse, really, case scenario, buy an ARF and take the covering off. When all these pieces fall apart you'll have a kit you can glue back together and finish the way you want.

This ought to strike a nerve with some...

There ought to be a rule against ARFs, or maybe a waiver process by AMA for non-airworthy aircraft. Wow, I need some therapy. It's 5 o'clock somewhere, I think I'll go home and do some more scratch work on my 27% Skybolt.

Good luck flying, in both venues.

ARF glued together? thats an oxymoron thats up there along with military intelligence etc. If I can get my new camera to ever download pics I will post some of structural joints on that YAK where there is a nice bead of glue 1-2mm next to piece thats supposed to be glued together. A post motem of my Katana that folded up showed many joints(?) to be the same, what glue that was there wasnt where it was needed. I think they got it wrong with the term ARF, it should be ARTTA Almost Ready To Throw Away

Carl,

I think you have gotten plenty of leads on kits. Although it was sort of mentioned with the Precision Cut Kits reference, a great and satisfying way to build is to do it from plans. The AMA and other sources as well have some terrific plans that you can get for around $15 - $20 and then you cut out the parts yourself (X-acto kinife, scroll saw, small band saw, etc.). You will just need to do some calculations and then go to either your local hobby shop for the wood or you could send for it from places line Sig, Balsa USA, Lonestar, etc. About two years ago I bought Ken Willard's Drake II plans from the AMA and "scratch built" the model. It was probably the most satisfying build that I had done because I had to do it all myself. There were a number of areas that I had to come up with a solution because the plans left some of those details up to the builder. You sound like a guy that has some good mechanical skils/tools and could certainly build from plans. Earlier I put quotations around scratch build because in truth, scratch building includes drawing up the plans yourself. Now that would be fun and is a goal I aspire to. Give Ken Willard's Drake II a try since you live so near to many water flying sites.

By the way, I have about 300 sport skydiving jumps and my opinion is that what you were doing with your powered paragliding wasn't terribly unsafe as long as the water wasn't deep and you had people there who could quickly help you. Of course you could get hurt which is the case with many adventure sports/hobbies. I will say that because of my RC float flying, wood props are a no go. The problem is that any water will very quickly (minutes) destroy a wood prop. Composite/fiberglass props are the norm when water flying. Wood props can be made to work if they are waterproofed with a sealant.

Cheers,

Lars

If you like WWI birds BUSA is the way to go

NorthEast Aerodynamics is closing out their kits, and have some of the Zeph-Air 120 biplanes left. They're closing them out for $160. I ordered one today.

They closed out the Twin-Air 45 kit for something like $129, and they're gone - but if there's enough interest, they may make a limited production run in January. I had them put me on the list (and, I'm NOT expecting to get it for that $129 closeout price.)

You want kits... buy kits. Give the supplier a reason to stay in the business.

Dave Olson

I agree with everthing you said.... Except the balls of steel part......LOL...... Any ways I think Ienjoy building more than the flying part..... I am now looking into scratchbuild projects..... Thank you guys for this info....Carl

I agree! I'm building the Eindecker 90 right now and am blown away with the quality of BUSA'a kits. And Sig makes great kits too!

Here is my Eindecker build thread.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9369734/tm.htm

There are plenty of kits or plans available. You just wont find many of them at the LHS or any of the big distributors. They sell what most people want, and that is to fly. I still like to build, however they seem to take longer to complete with the older I get.[&o]

Newflyingman, your building a 27% skybolt? the hostetler one?, if so I have one sitting in the box waiting to get built, I'm hoping to get to it this winter. Got any pic's?

Hey PlaneBuilder66,

It is in fact the Hostetler Skybolt. Did you get the kit cut? I gave kit cutters some thought, but they will only cut to the origial specs and I wanted to make some mods in the construction.

I'm making some departures from the std building materials. It has a lot of heavy sheeting. As I build I have been substituting things like 3/8" sheet with built up components to save on weight and add some rigidity to the model. Anywhere I can make it lighter I am. I am shooting for a target "optimistic" flying weight of 18 lbs.

I think I can do it and if so, it should scoot with a ZDZ 80.

No pics yet, my wife decided to see if the camera was bouce-proof. As soon as I can get that corrected I plan on starting up a history of the build online.

The build has been slow though. At the same time I've been finishing up a SU-26 toy (50"ws, .60 ASP) and started to design/draw up plans for a MQ-9 Reaper UAV. I'm gonna venture into amateur UAV land and outfit it with a GPS enabled camera so I can play around with my captured imagery in my GIS software at work.

I'll stay in touch as my progress, progresses.

Carl,

A couple people have mentioned swap meets. Based on the flight location in Michigan I assume you live in that neck of the woods, but if you happen to be in the southeast in the next few months the swap meet in Perry, GA is always supposed to be great for picking up a lot of things you need, don't need and giving your better-half a reason to boot you to the couch for spending even more on your airplane habit.

For every pair of shoes she buys I get to buy an airplane, that's fair isn't? I think so...

shoes? airplane? fair? she wont think so, to her shoes are a necesity, where as she will see an airplane as just more "junk" been there done that [:@][&:] When we parted she had well over 100 pr of shoes [X(] while my hangar could be packed into my sedan

Ok on the topic of what the hobby shops will carry, I made a trip to one of the biggest within a 400 mile radius a couple days ago, and I spoke to the manager there, and asked why all he carried was numerous cheap foamies and a few (very few) 40 sized arfs. His reply was eye opening, he said it simplified matters both selling and for issues as his staff didnt have a clue about anything to do with planes, while one of his staff was into cars and buggies, and it showed too, that section was well and truly stocked up and catered for. I asked if there waqs any demand for decent airplane kits, arfs motors etc and he told me bluntly he didnt know, and no-one on his staff had said anything either. Bare in mind this town has 2 good sized RC Airplane clubs, so whats the story? simple, he relies on his staff for whats on demand, and his staff are feeding him duff info. I told him to basicly get his ass out of his office and get with what is really wanted and get the real facts from his staff. he ask what I meant and I told him that his staff had just told me that there was no call for airplanes, yet I walked into his store and was told that what they stocked was all that was available, and I wasnt the only one told that by his "rc expert" I told him bluntly that his "expert" ewas costing him a fortune as I know that like me many of the local club members up there were shopping in the US and Asia just as I do.

Ok thats one hobby shop, But after talking to several others I have come to the conclusion that the reasons hobby shops dont carry many models is

Arfs are so much easier, as they supposedly have everything needed bar the motor and radio gear, meaning less outlay in stock, and staff dont need to know whats what

To sell builder kits means carrying an assortment of hardware, glues, balsa, covering etc, as well as tools and stuff. In the words of one hobby shop owner, "bahh, I couldnt be bothered"

Another issue regarding kits is that many kit makers wont sell direct online, which is cutting thier own throats, seeing as how most hobby shops have little or no interest in actually stocking kits, I have actually contacted several companies about obtaining one or more kits, and was tolds to go to my hobby shop [:'(] so what do you do? It looks to me like for many kit builders its a lose-lose situation, especially in the 40-1.20 size kits. The bigger kits are getting better catered for as more and more kit cutters are setting up shop, and plans are getting more available too. One of the big issues with the popular lits that are disappearing is the "copyright", which means a kit cutter cant just get a set of plans and make a run of say 50 kits of your "40 zingbat" or whatever without leaving himself wide open to a legal wrangle.

The way I see it, as time marches steadily on, the availability of full kits is going to dwindle, and it will be up to builders to find plans and scratch build most smaller kits, while a lot of the bigger planes have plans readily available and a number of cutters doing short and all wood kits to your plans. The big issue with all the Popular kits is that the manufacturers are steadily winding down production, but are holding on to the rights and copyrights, which means basicly a slow death for that kit/plane. As long as we are flooded with cheap chink arfs, I dont see it changing, as most are quite happy to fly them, with the attitude "if I dork it I'll just get another". On that note what I would like to see is a set minimum standard that all these chinese arfs are built too, both in the amopunt of wood, type of wood, and designs. I am seeing more simply fold up in the air simply because they arent built strong enough for what they are. I saw another arf just fold its wings on its maiden flight yesterday, again wings folded just outside the wing joiner, and again, very little in the way of spars, and what was there was notched for ribs and very little glue actually in the joints.

One question to ponder, when was the last time the hobby shops carried a "NEW, just released kit" ??

ok I'll end it here, just the way I see things cheers

Yes, mine is from percision cut kits, bought it at the WRAm show, funny thing is I asked them if they would cut me a deal if I bought 2 or 3 giant kits, they said the price is the price, they told me a number, and as I went to pay them, I asked one last time how much and for some reason the price went up about 25 bucks, I told them the previous price they just stated and all they told me is that was the wrong number. So I bought just the skybolt, the next week I phoned wendell and ordered the plans, he told me all about the plane and what to change for making it lighter, he included the sheet revision with my instructions, that lists all the parts that get changed to balsa and lite-ply. I want to start the build this winter, but currently I'm resheeting and glassing my TF 47, so it's taking some time to do. But it should be off my bench in a little bit.

try lazer Lizard, last time i talked with them I got a discount for getting 3 kits, and they were all very nicely cut and wood quality was up there too. I have spoken to the clowns at precision, and like you I got different prices for the same kit in the same conversation. that doesnt instill confidence in them to say the least [:'(]

Yeah, I offered to buy the jungmiester, the skybolt and my buddy wanted a b-17 kit, they were looking at about 750-1000 bucks in one sale, just give a few off for the total of buying 3, but nope, infact, they ran the price up as if I insulted them. Now I here horror stories of the kits not being cut correctly and parts don't match the plan?! So now I'm a little worried that come time to build it, I'm going to have issues and be SOL on getting any parts recut to fit, due to me buying it in the 09 WRAM show.