gldviking,

We had the same problem with knowledgable staff at our local Hobbytown, but luckly enough for us the owner is a flyer and he recently hired one of our own from the club to supplement his staff. Over the years I've been to the 4 corners of the States and I have to say that Hobbytown in Tallahassee, Florida is one of the best along the lines of staff, selection and service!

We, RCUers, ought to find a way to start and maintain a community kit sales area. You know find out what the needs/wants are, some one or people to maintain a stock of kits from an array of modelers (modeler made kits) and sell them for reasonable prices. Probably a pipe dream, but then what's life without dreaming.

planebuiler66,

We must be cut from the same cloth, or I guess in this case it would be balsa stock. I have plans to add the TF 47 to my fleet. I have an aged RC Modeler Ace Bingo by Doc Matthews that has an original OS 90 Surpass that I just rebuilt that is looking for a new home and the 47 is the place I chose for it, but just as you I need to get some stuff off the bench.

Good flying.

I have been looking into setting up my own online hobby shop specialising in planes but trying to find kits is proving to be a monumental P.I.T.A [:@] I have spent many hours finding companys and writing emails, and the obnly kit manufacturer that was interested was so overpriced it wasnt funny. I got either no reply or negative responses from the big name manufacturers, and all the chinese companies are only interested in selling arf's. I looked into setting up to make the kits myself, but thats a legal minefield at best, as all the kits that people want are copyrighted etc and the royalties they want are beyond a joke. I am a CNC woodmachinist by trade and have seriously looked into setting up to manufacture kits etc and at one stage even had the backing needed to get started, but the issue of what people want, and the cost of even getting the plans and royalties etc, it just wasnt viable. Lets face it, everyone wants the big name kits, and if i started with my own or other unknown designs I wouldnt sell enough to even break even let alone be viable. I am still looking into it, and looking for various plans that I can use legally etc, but not in a real hurry, I have health issues at the moment. I havent tossed the idea out yet, just put it on hold for now

gldviking , I,ve been working on the same thing and have come to the conclusion, it's just to much of a hassle. The laser and CNC machines are the easy part. But the rest of the hoops you have to jump thru makes jt not worth doing.

Speaking of knowledgeable staff, some time ago I was placing an order at one of the biggest hobby shops in aussie, for various parts for several different planes i was working on, ranging from a 60 size extra to the zirolli DC3, and when I had given the young punk the list of what I wanted, he goes and changes everything and says none of it fits!! fits? I ask him, he says yeah, its all different scale hardware he says. I told him again its for several planes of different sizes. He comes back to me with his modified order and asks for my card details, all the same, I tell him again I want the parts as i ordered them and he says no, they wont fit, so i ask for the boss, who I could hear in the background, and the punk tells me he isnt there. ok, I ask the punk to check the computer with my client number, and then tell him to cancel my orders, which included the H9 46% ulti, servo's to suit etc. as well as a lot of other bits. he asked why? I told him I have been in the hobby for over 25 years, and I wont have a juvenile delinquent tell me what I need, nor will i de3al with anyone that BS's straight out to me, and told him to jam my complete order where the sun dont shine and hung up. I then sent an email confirming my cancellation to the boss himself. he called about 3 min after the email was sent and asked why and i told him bluntly that I wont be treated like a fool nor will I be lied too. I also told him I wont talk the monkey if I can talk to the organ grinder, and if not, will I have other options. he asked if he coulkd call me back in 10 min, so i said ok, but it took him 3 days to get back to me by which time I had ordered the parts from another store. he wasnt happy, but I told him bluntly that I dont need a punk thats younger than my rc years telling me what i need, nor do I need to cop his smart assed attitude.

Unfortunately I have come across that atrtitude from many staff at various hobby shops, both here and in the US. Now I dont claim to know it all, but in the various class's of planes i fly I have a very good idea of what I want and need, and I am learning more all the time as I branch out in different areas and also new h'ware and electronics.

Yes, I've been there too, I was once told by a hobby shop owner, who holds a position in the AMA in this district, that goldberg doesn't exist and he can't get any eagle II kits. I just looked at him and said "what?" so he repeated it, I told him nevermind, I'll just order it from tower, I went to another shop, the shop owner thought he could pull the wool over me, I've been in it long enough to know what I'm talking about. He just assumed that I was new and looking for a trainer, probibally wanted to sell me something out of his current inventory of arfs, but what I didn't tell him is I was buying it as a present for my buddy. He just assumed that I was a noob and I'd buy the "goldberg doesn't exist" line. I never went back there ever again, and I lived a few minutes from that shop, instead I drove 20 minutes to the other shop for everything I needed.

I am the same, i will travel to go to a shop that has service rather than be treated like a ning nong, It seems to me that a lot of store owners and staff forget the basic fact of life that customers are thier livelihood

Yeah I'm going to a swap meet on Jan24. Its the RCCD club...... My wife is understanding.... To a point thats is.... She did how ever buy a new laptop because I bought the biplane.... Wait till I buy the 4-stroker for this plane..LOLCarl

You know, I rarely get greif from my girl, I usually get her something good every year and I never ask for anything. It allows me to buy what I want, but she did ask me why I needed soo many planes, I just told her "there is a shortage of good kits out there,...unlike her shoe collection, which will never be a shortage of". She just said "touche" and walked away.

[X(] If I had said something like that to my ex I'd have worn half her collection and spent at least a week in the doghouse and a diet of cold shoulder and hot tongue [:'(] [&:] but then I guess thats why she is now ex

Why are divorces soo expensive??? Because they're worth it!

Hi Qldviking,

I have also been looking into having some kits made, there are a few loop holes in the copywrite laws, If for example you have a very old plan with no date or persons name on it you can have a kit made. ( I have a few of these )

I also think it is safe to make a kit from a plan that belong's to a company that no longer is in business

Eg PriceRite & Aeroflite here in Australia

You can also Kit from anything you design yourself.

Eg. Design a "Ugly Stick" type plane call it a Silly Stick

There is another a fine line you can tread, I think it is safe to sell a short kit (not complete just wood) with a Magazine plan that you have bought from the magazine for each short kit. As long as you buy the plan for each kit you are ok. As what you are doing is providing a "Service" not a kit.

Regards

Johnkpap

I would be wearing a size 8 pump in my butt if I said that.

I'm telling you, ya gotta stand your ground, once you start "giving in", the scale tips and I'm not talking about in your favor. Heck, last night I was up till 3 am talking to one of my friends on here, the night before 3:30 am, she didn't give me any grief at all. She understands I work hard all week to pay for just about 95% of everything we have and do, but the man cave is my hideout, and what I put in the basement is my decision. Although, I did bend and let her put the treadmill down here, well, that's a lie, I didn't feel like lugging it up 2 flights from the basement, plus I get to watch her run on it, quite nice at times.

JohnkPap,

I think your assumption of the copyright laws may in practice be workable, but I don't think the copyright itself on file with the feds loses any authority just because the company goes under. Yes, the company is not around to defend it, but the law may still be broken nonetheless. And for companies bought up by others, i.e. -ower -obbies buying up Great Planes, etc. they will own the rights.

However, given the nature of aircraft, they all have the same essential elements, I think you could easily get away with replicating designs with some small mods to get around the original art work encompasses by the totality of the copyright, i.e. make a Great Planes Ultra Sport 1000 with a modified vertical tail or canopy design and give it a new name.

And does anyone really think a "big" company in our industry is going to come after some little guy. First the actually costs aren't worth it and it wouldn't do much for the company's PR. Despite how strongly you feel you a company's rights would you really have much respect for them if they torpedoed a couple guys because they made a sought after model available that the company saw fit to discontinue.

Just some thing to think about. All in all I think you're right, in reality the copyright doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

You know, I had that same discussion in another thread, and a person or two were bashing the snot out of me saying that great planes would and will sue you and give a damn if you coppied a plane that was once built by the purchased company, but not at the time of purchase. I was refering to the jungmann bipe, but it's funny how GP got started by allocating birdi enterprises and making kits, but I want to say there is a company out there making koas and such forth, called bluejay or something like that. I don't see GP jumping down thier throats.

I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on internet forums, but my understanding is a company can basically forfeit it's copyright by not defending it over time. So, if it could be shown that Great Planes did not defend it's copyright against blatant and public violation for 20 years on a particular model they might have a very difficult time winning a court battle if they suddenly decided they did want to protect it. On the other hand, if Great Planes had the money to pay attorneys, they could easily get any small kit cutter to cease making copies just by threatening an expensive lawsuit.

Sadly to say, in the grand scheme of things copyrights DO matter, and now we have clowns running around buying the rights to many of the what were free designs and threatening legal action and demanding royalties. if you doubt it search the forums on here and other sites for all the crud going down regarding the Beegee R3. Now thios is a plane that has been kitted since '02 and built before then by modelers, yet last year a certain person bought the supposed copyright (proof yet to be seen) and basicly made a nuisance of himself claiming ownership etc, and not only for the R3, but for various Pitts models too. I know of other models that there are the same issues with too.
Yes I could take a popular model, lets call it the Zot for now, and modify it enough to disqualify copyrights, then what? how will it fly? will it look right? The mods required need to be a nuymber of chages of at least 2% and at least 3 changes of at least 15%. Ok, so we change the Zot with the necesary changes, where do we incorporate those changes? and how will those said changes affect looks, performance and flight characteristics? is it even worth the exercise?
There was a case not so long ago, and its still in the courts, regarding a new kit. One of the big hobby shops decided it looked too much like one of the kits, so hi ho hi ho its of to court we go. It can and does happen. and a lot more frequently than we realise. All the big companies these days have lawyers just looking after thier "rights"
The bottom line is, if I was to start selling kits I would need to find plans for these kits, make sure they are copyrighted, get the rights to use thoise plans and then hope some smart assed company with some wannabe lawyer dont decisde to take me to the cleaners. I have had many extended conversations with several lawyers, and the general consensus is "stay away from what I want to do" because its a legal minefield
Will a big company come after a little guy? you bet your ass they will. The last thing those "BIG" companies want is some little guy such as myself coming along and taking some of thier profits, and heaven forbid actually making a success of doing so. They will use every underhand trick or scam to shut me down as soon as I look like actually getting somewhere. And yes, I have actually seen it happen in our hobby

The only thing the whole copyright and lawsuit topic makes me want to do is stop trying to avoid hitting laywers as they walk out of thier legal practice buildings?!

I firmly believe there should be a law against lawyers, or at least outlaw them

Didn't you know, lawyers are outlaws, they're untouchable and will steal every penny you have, weather or not you win or lose?! That's why if you ever wanted to get into kit building, you better be good a designing or know the person who designed the plane and ask to use his design and pay the royalty. Then your in the clear, now-a-days, all the major players have to do is say, "hey, don't we make a cessna like that?" and the next thing you know, they're pouring hot sauce on your back side while bending you over. They don't own the patent for the cessna plane, your's just looks similar. You would have to design something that looks like it's a tank inorder for the major players to say, "nope we've never made a flying tank, Oh wait, what about our duraplane!?"

Someone once said, that if you layed all the lawyers down end to end.....you should prolly just leave them there.

why do they bury lawyers 100 feet down? bvecause deep deep down they are human

Balls of steel...........not any more. I used to be pretty gutsy when I started flying back in 1987, but with age has come more caution.......plus, I BUILD my airplanes. I wouldn't buy an ARF or a RTF if you gave them away. Now, don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people out there that don't like to build, don't have any patience, or are loaded$$$ and can afford to buy these ARFs and that's fine for them, and only fair too. But, when I started building and flying , building was a huge part of the hobby for a lot of people. When I take an airplane out for the first time to fly, after many hrs, wks of building time, it is a huge moment. The anticipation of that first test flight on something that you built instead of something you bought thatbwas cranked out of an assembly line is huge. A real sense of accomplishment is achieved when the plane flies straight and level without much trim needed. You guys that don't build are missing out on this, and that's too bad. But it's never too late to get in on it. Even if its a trainer, the feeling is the same. I built it, I'm flying it, and most of the time it doesn't look like anything that anybody has, because after building a few, you tend to add your own touches here and there that make it unique and your own. I hope people that read this don't think I am knocking the guys that would rather not build, it's just that I think they are missing out on what used to be the meat of our hobby.

I've got a tower catalog, that has maybe 5-10 arfs in it, they were the hobbico and kyosho planes. That was about it for arfs back then, and those were noveties. Now, you can count the number of kits in 2 pages, I think it's pathetic. But the arf has it's place I suppose, to me they are in the trash bags at the field, for others, they are the only way to get into the hobby due to time constraints. But if anyone starts preaching how arfs are great in this thread, they should read what fourm they are in first.
Oh, you forgot that where those 100 lawyers were laying down, on the santa monica freeway, I agree leave them there. I have a friend that went to pick up his daughters son from the ex's house, the kid and father beat him unconcious, then when he came to, they said he slipped and fell. His son was in the truck and watched the whole thing, it took him 5 years to get the settlement from the courts and a payout. How rediculous is our system if the lawyers can defend this kid and father for 5 years and finally lose, even with a witness and a hospital visit? Well, back to the lack of kits, there are still plenty of kits out there, it's just all the really good ones that were made by great people in the hobby are slowly being decommisioned and shut down. Any of you ever walk into that old school hobbyshop that's been around since the 50's and see the personal collection of planes built and flown by the owner from decades ago? That's what modeling use to be, now it's big flashy boxes and shiny plastic cookie cutter planes all stacked up because the margin was great and he bought a heap of them. The day's of walking in and finding dope and koverall are going the way of the do-do, just try to find good AAA grade balsa at some shops, you wont. I actually laughed at the selection of one shop, the guy said he had balsa, I went to the bin and all that was there was small sticks, a few sheets that looked like they came from honduras in 1976 and almost every sheet was cracked or damaged to point where it was unusable unless I was building a tooth pick building. I think it's about time I place a very large order to BUSA or lonestar for balsa and start scratch building from now on. Sooner or later, RCU is going to have to remove this fourm because there will be no more kit's being made and we will all be forced to relocate to the scratch building fourm.