can773

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I have heard that Vancouver may have pulled their support to host the 2006 Nats?

Anyone else hear of this?

Sharpy01

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nope. haven't heard that one yet.

Too bad if it's true as the last one they put on was apparently a successful, well organized and attended event.

In reality, this whole national event issue thing likely goes way beyond the usual comp vs sport argument and is more a case of everyone being increasingly busy with more pressures of work, family etc that few can commit to the difficulty and pressure of putting together/attending such a venture. Leisure time seems to be shrinking for many and what little folks do have, they don't want to use it "organizing" something. It's a tough sell in this day and age.

Jim_McIntyre

So we should all just give up and go home?

Relegate ourselves to a lifetime of little leisure, plodding through our measly little lives content in what little social events we can manage to pull off, maybe an occasional non-competitive social fly with hotdogs and pop?

Sorry man, I'm gonna squeeze every last little drop of enjoyment I can get out of this life. If that means missing a few re-runs or the occasional "real life TV" ... at least I won't be sitting around the old folks home wishing I'd spent more time in the real world.[:'(]

Carpe Diem![8D]

Vancouver? Is there any truth to the rumour? Please say it isn't so.... don't let the couch-potatoe nay-saying armchair-quarterback critics squash your zest for life! It's just a lousy handful on some silly forums GO FOR THE BRASS RING! DAMN THE TORPEDOES![sm=lol.gif][8D]

can773

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Certainly not.....hopefully I will find out soon enough what the scoop is if there is one or not.....once we know planning of the Pattern Nats will begin if no combined Nats is to go forth.

You cant blame anyone for not wanting to run the event.....the sideline critics would be enough to drive anyone from volunteering for such a task.....I personally would never be involved in such a venture for that reason alone.

Anywho category Nats are relatively easy to put on, and are more or less removed from the public scrutany that a Nats is so finding people to run them is much easier!!

jhelps

Jim, Chad

I honestly hope that the ramblings a few folks (I am not going to comment on the validity or lack there of of the content of the ramblings) is not enough to influence whether an event takes place or not. I find it hard to believe that a decision to host a national event is based on whether Marc or Ken or anyone else are going to comment on it on these Internet sites. In fact that is something that has always amazed me, the apparent belief that a) a small number of individuals wield a huge amount of influence and power and therefore b) their points of view and personalities must be attacked at all turns lest the cancer take hold and grow.

Personally I take most of what goes on here as "what if" discussion (which yields the odd nugget of an idea) interspersed with some individual personality driven "tag teaming".

Indeed I would be very surprised if any of the "Manitoba 7" (by the way I can only ID about 4 [5 if I'm included]) believes that they occupy a position of final judgment "as I have spoken ... so it shall be (imagine the voice of Charlton Heston and it really sounds cool).

cheers

JH

can773

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I know for certain that the decision to hold the F3A WC was not further pursued because of this very reason (it would have almost certainly been granted for 2007), so it absolutely does affect things.

People dont get paid to do this, and its just not worth the hassle dealing with it if something goes wrong......no one can guarantee attendance to any event and there is always the possibility of it going south. To subject yourself to significant external pressure to suceed for the benefit of others (many CD's dont actually compete as they have no time) is not fun for anyone.

Thats the fundamental difference between the AMA Nats and Canadian Nats.....the AMA Nats are ran by employees of the AMA so their trouble is reimbursed

Anyways, this is way off why I started this....all I really wanted to know if what I heard was true.

CP140

I would suggest contacting the BC Zone director. I imagine he'll have the latest info.

Morison

Chad, you are without question closer to the F3A decision makers, but I'd suggest that the decision to not bid for the F3A worlds had less to do with critisism than it did with a feeling that the event could not break even. Suggestions otherwise are misplaced.
Similar to scale, F3A requires judges to be brought in and housed ... that makes it hard to balance the books for sure. I also understand that there is a lot more ceremony with the F3A events than sailplane typically has (and definately more than We had.)
This is a complex issue, but it is also fair to say that the board would not likely have approved another world champs in Tilsonberg (I heard, but could be wrong, that was where the event was to be held) without a solid budget showing a surplus. Protecting against unforseen losses is one thing, incurring in planned deficit is another...
The biggest problem with the nationals is that it is next to impossible to find people to run them. If BC backs out because of manpower, will Gerry Shaw step in to do it all again in a year's time? We need to be in a position to promote these events all year long. If the Nats reports in the mag can't point to the 2006 event, we're missing promotional value. If the event isn't held with the publishing schedule in mind and if the event co-ordinator won't provide timely information ... we're also missing the boat!
I know of a handful of people that are already planning for the Vancouver Nats in 2006 ... let's hope they happen.

Ed Smith

Not totally correct. Most of the pre-event paper work is handled by the AMA office but the actual event is run by the Special Interest Group of the event or, in the case of Pylon Racing, one individual as the CD. Pylon Racing ran for the whole week. Apart from the AMA people moving some of the AMA equipment the race workers were all volunteers. They did recieve a small payment for their efforts. There were no AMA employees working the event.

As for the MAAC 2006 NATS maybe those that wish to comment should get some facts before the analysis starts. Another year of arguing and misinformation posted on this Forum will be more than I care to read.

Ed S

Ed Smith

The MAAC board seems to be ignoring it's own directive regarding NATS. I attended a Toronto, MAAC AGM some years ago. At that meeting the Board ruled that a NATS proposal had to be in place by the AGM previous to the year of the event. If such a submission was not in place and approved the event would not be allowed to happen. There are very good reasons for this policy. I know the 2005 NATS was not handled that way.

The 2006 NATS submission should have been made and approved at this years AGM. Was it?. If not I do not understand why we are talking about it now.

Ed S

can773

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F3A does need judges which cost, but we pay nearly double the entry fees of any other event....this year I coughed up abour $800, the manager was $400......if you figure in France 118 pilots - 94.4K, 43 countries @$400 each (for managers) - 17.2K or 111.6K just in entry fees alone. Typically entries are in the 100 pilot range with 35 countries attending, there is no reason we would have not had those numbers here. There are typically 21 judges and 3 Jury members brought in for the event, I dont have a good feel what the costs are associated with those individuals, but I think it was somewhere in the 60-80K range for them....that could be wrong though.

The cerimony is dependant on the country, some go all out some dont....the banquets are covered by the pilots.....I think its 50 Euro for our banquet tickets ($75 CND) in France. There is always an "offering" to the pilots, we get glasses, shirst all kinds of little goodies and stuff when we get there....costs on that are intangible to me? Harry had a preliminary budget from what I remember seeing (this was a number of years ago now) it was not showing any loss and if I remember his entries were conservative at 90. There was also no reliance on spectator income (who the hell wants to watch pattern LOL, not even me!).

Tillisonburg was to be the venue, primarily we need space.......the flight lines need to be separated by at least 1/2 km I think to have good in air separation between planes when the lines are collinear with each other (typical setup on a runway).

Anyways, to my knowledge the non-continuation of the bids was not because of budgetary concerns for the event.

can773

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Yes the events are ran by the SIG's (as they are in Canada) but the overall prep and planning is done by AMA staff...which is not how it is done in Canada.

Not to mention doing it at the same site helps :-)

can773

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Thats where it came from.....although it was not direct communication with me.....and I was wondering if someone else had heard the same thing.


Apparently they had their first planning meeting and 7 of the original 16 people who were organizing it showed up so they pulled the plug.

Morison

Ed, the important thing that the AMA staff have taken over is the logistics involved with venues, registrations and everything that makes a nats a NATS. I am sure that if it were just a matter of showing up and running your own discipline's event, we'd have volunteers whereever the nats are held ... it is the overall event organisation that is (next to) impossible to find. The AMA does have the luxury of knowing the venue is suitable ... but that's another topic all together.

Also, Ed, you're right. The board is not following its own direction with respect to requiring full proposals at the previous year's AGM. BC did express interest and desire to host the 2006 nats during the AGM this year, but certainly there wasn't a 'proposal' beyond saying that much of the 2000 Nats committee was on board again.

Expecting proper proposals with venues, budgets and committees in place a year and a half ahead of time would likely be the nail in the coffin of the nats. (even Gerry Shaw wasn't prepared to commit to 2006 until 2005 was history)

Sharpy01

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First of all, let me remind everyone here that it was good o'l Chad that started this one before the hooting and hollerin continues about "naysayers" and such. My one comment wasn't anit-anything. It was just general view on leisure time related to work and family commitments of which I consider myself somewhat knowledgable.......that's it.

Jim, do what works for you and enjoy it? "Real-life TV"? ....rant.....rant....? You may be interested to know, that my family hasn't had TV (other than the occasional rented movie) in our home since last November. I convinced them to give the experiment a try and we all agree it was one of the smartest things we ever did. I really don't know where we found time before. ......... besides I get enough of "real-life" at work.

..........that's kind of what the last F3A "business case" looked like when they tried for the worlds the last year I was on the board. However, the majority of the board approved it and it was the FAI the killed that one. I suspect it's more a case of nobody wanting to put the work in to a proper business case in the first place that sets up one of the major hurdles. Hell, all the have to do is follow Keith's business case from the glider worlds to see what should be done before coming to the board with any world proposal.

There should be a simple formula up front for these events;

1. A proper accounting of expenses
2. A minimum break-even number of competitors, NOT INCLUDING PERCEIVED REVENUES LIKE T-SHIRT AND BEER SALES!
3. A deadline for money to be in for that minimum number whereas the event is responsibly deep-sixed. Emotion and pie-in-the-sky feel-good stuff has to stay out of the equasion.

As the paid up entrants increase beyond minimun, then you begin to think of adding some of the expensive fluff based on known moneys coming in. I think this is reasonable stuff?

Morison

Actually, mark, the FAI would have killed the bid because of politics or because of a pre-existing bid form a preferred country. They typically only take a quick look at the business case as they know what entry fees should work to host an event.

FYI. Chad's conversion to CAD for entry fees is about 30% too high. a pilot entry fee to the F3A worlds is 400 euro, about 600cad. he may be paying $800 as an entry fee, but some of that would be used to offset manager and helper entry fees.

can773

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Ok...bit of bid history (as I recall it.....this was a number of years ago)....

Bid placed to the CIAM in 2001 (I think) for the 2003 WC to be held in Canada.....at the meeting a last minute proposal was placed by Poland in fact it was not even a formal proposal....however the vote by the CIAM was in favour of Poland (this would be their second F3A WC)....reasons...who knows you would have to ask the CIAM members for their decisions.

A second bid placed to the CIAM in 2003 to host the 2005 WC....it was in fact the same bid used previously.....France also submitted a bid. This was an extremely close vote between the two countries...in the end France was awarded the bid to my understanding a large part of the reason had to do with allowing CPLR to defend his title for the 3rd time on his home soil. How true that is I dont know.....

Bid for the 2007 WC, a proposal was submitted by Argentina.....unchallenged, so the 2007 F3A WC will be in Argentina.

If you want to know what a bid looks like, look no further than the intial bulletin for the WC provided by the organizers to the teams.....they are basically the same thing. The FAI cares more about location, date, weather, accomodations etc etc. than they do about making it a financial sucess as that is the responsibilty of the host country. They simply care that a WC will be crowned at an appropriate event without issue.

400 Euro entry, + 80 Euro for caller (this is mandatory per pilot....unless another flier is calling for you, which is rare) = 480E per pilot....at the time of registration the exchange was $1.60 or so......= $768 give or take a bit.....

Managers are 250E and are separate to pilots.....43 countries....43 managers.

You must understand that pattern is a long long event with much history and precedent set for entries etc....this is the 24th WC for F3A...so 48 years of events....the estimates of cost and entries are not up in the cloud numbers but numbers which have be demonstated acheivable at many other F3A WC.

Anyways, this is really WAY off topic and all the discussion here wont change the fact that Canada will not be submitting another bid for this event...simple as that.

All I really want to know is if the 2006 Nats are going ahead or not [8D]

Sharpy01

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Hey dude, your the one who too the topic in this direction.

can773

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Nu uh....Jeff started it.

Sharpy01

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.........really? I stand corrected.

what a poop disturber Jeff is.

Ed Smith

Marc, I caught the above in your post. Hurrah! a fellow traveler.

A year and a half ago my wife and I got so disgusted with the trash that came from the TV we canceled the cable. We have not seen TV programming since. We have not missed it one bit.

Ed S

Sharpy01

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Yeah Ed, It's been a good go. Interestingly, the times I wind up in a hotel somewhere, I find there is little that holds my interest of more that a couple of minutes. As a matter of fact, the last time, ............the only thing I could find that I watched through was the Orange county choppers show ...........and I don't like motorcycles, but can appreciate the creativity and of course...........the arguing between family. The times I'm over at family and friends near a TV, it always seems to be on one of the CSI progams, but I usually get kicked out after a couple of minutes for making fun and picking it apart.

I do have a couple of seasons of MASH, all the episodes of Fawlty Towers and a couple of seasons of Seinfeld around when the urge overpowers me.

jhelps

From the "voice of reason" to a "poop disturber" all in one day ... I don't think my ego can take it.

JH

Jim_McIntyre

A great move, congratulations.

I was surprised last summer when I won a large home theatre system from Look TV. The nice thing is it provided a means for me to cut down on the amount of TV watching in the family as we now use it as a family treat, mostly for quality DVDs. The kids now have much less interest in watching the "little" tv (31 inch). The hard part is getting away from flying RealFlight on an 8 foot screen.

I occasionally make time for Discovery wings or the history channel but, it never cease to be amaze me when someone visits and wonders where I find the time for my hobbies.... the same people who, when I visit their house, it's painfully obvious the d*mn tube is obviously absorbing the majority of time in the household.

___________

Back on topic ... is there anymore on the Nats?
I was working on organising a family trip that might just put me in the area....[]

Sharpy01

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.those two channels were the only real loss. [8D]

...........now, if I could only do something about this computer addiction.